NET ZERO - will this policy damage our economy?

[richie3846]

Why Ed Miliband’s net zero dream is doomed to failure

WWW.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK

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Starmer wants Britain to be a ‘climate leader’, but the obstacles facing the Government’s ambitious plans seem increasingly insurmountable

I'm getting a feeling that Starmer has overstretched the UK committments beyond our tolerance and affordability. 

 

[Methuselah]

Good grief, the Torygraph is up to its usual tricks, I see! 

[CharlieBear9]

 Methuselah When all else fails, shoot the messenger.

[CharlieBear9]

Ford to cut 800 UK jobs as electric car sales flag

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

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The move is part of a wider restructuring programme, which will see 4,000 posts closed across Europe.

Hard to see any demand for second hand EVs when battery replacements, average cost £8,000 + fitting, are likely any time after ten years old.

[Methuselah]

Hmm -- TDS! 

How many EVs are there in the UK - EV market statistics 2024 - Zapmap

WWW.ZAP-MAP.COM

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Find out how many electric vehicles there are in the UK, from pure-electric cars to PHEVs and electric vans.

 

[Scuba steve]

Anyone seen the Jaguar rebrand? Seems they don’t want to sell cars

[CharlieBear9]

 Methuselah Mostly fleet/company purchases due to tax advantages. My son-in-law has an EV Audi E-tron, which is very nice, but it's part of his remuneration deal and he openly admits he'd never buy one himself. The dealers are having to drastically discount prices to shift plug-ins to such an extent that the manufacturing process is becoming unsustainable and some are buying them because their original choice of vehicle are being phased out. I'll likely be buying a Mazda CX 5 soon, if I can find a Takumi or Homura spec in the right colour/mileage. It's a mild hybrid with a silly little 24V battery attached underneath the floor pan which has virtually no effect on the performance besides box-ticking, but it's about the nearest type of vehicle that I fancy that still has a proper engine.

 Scuba steve Thought it was for some weird clothes range or a fashion show.

[Wold Topper]

ULEZ is great for some of us further down the food chain, just sold my 330d bmw coupe (bought from a new ULEZ zone last year from a seller at trade) now got an Audi A4 s-line black addition, all diesel of course, not interested in hybrid nonsense when i can keep picking up BMW/Audi top spec for trade prices

[CharlieBear9]

TOP NEWS: UK public sector borrowing increases in October

WWW.AJBELL.CO.UK

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UK public sector borrowing spiked to the ...

Beginning to look like Miliband Jr's. Net Zero fantasy could be beaten to the punch by Rachel from accounts.

[cheeky_monkey]

 CharlieBear9 almost put hertz out of business..gambled on buying hundreds of thousand of electric cars...but nobody wants to rent/hire them now having to offload their fleet at a huge loss 

[Sky Full]

 cheeky_monkey   On the face of it, with official government policy in mind, replacing their ICE fleet with EVs would seem to be a forward looking strategy.  I’m not sure why people are reluctant to hire EVs though unless they are more expensive per mile to rent, or perceived as not suitable for high mileage use?   Many car rentals are for tourist use or replacement for other vehicles off the road for repair etc, so I’m guessing it’s the lack of charging facilities which might be another deterrent.  If the policy of making all ICE vehicles unwelcome on roads by 2050 is maintained by future governments in the UK then one way or another we will all have to learn to love EVs eventually.  

[cheeky_monkey]

 Sky Full they are cheaper to rent ..but your point about charging stations here in Canada is valid..go outside of a city and you can go hundreds of miles without seeing one..who wants to be stranded in the middle of no where? plus nobody here is going to rent a EV in the winter time..as they are notoriously unreliable..plus you need 4wd and winter tyres  

[CharlieBear9]

Electric car sales targets could be eased as demand flags

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

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The government faces pressure from the industry to make changes to electric vehicle sales quotas.

 

Colour me shocked.

[Sky Full]

 cheeky_monkey   The supposedly remote and inaccessible areas of the UK where EVs are going to be hard to sell are nothing compared to the huge expanses of wilderness in Canada - and many other countries come to that.  It seems to me that we are a very long way off finding a truly bullet proof and long lasting battery format which would surpass the proven reliability and range of the ICE whether it’s diesel or petrol powered.   The fact that you can carry your own emergency fuel supply around with you makes an ICE far more attractive if you’re travelling through uninhabited back country.  The next few years will be interesting while we watch various governments try to overcome these obvious issues while at the same time they continue to force ICE manufacturing into decline.

[SW Saltire]

I can see both sides to this argument but I do think the narrative being painted is very biased against EVs.

I think there’s lots of fear surrounding EVs which is justified and lots of myth being peddled by pro ICE bodies.

I live in a rural area, my work is 80 miles from my house. Nearest town is 6 miles (so not completely in the sticks, nearest street lamp is 3/4 miles). Most folk drive pickups here etc.

Due to doing 25-30k miles a year I switched to an EV in May (Polestar 2). Managed to get it for 40% of its new list price when it was only 18 months old. It has been phenomenal so far.
 

I get real life range of 270 miles. In summer a smidgen more, in winter (was -9c here last week) I got about 220 off a full ‘tank’ with heater, AC and other things going.

On a long journey I use IONITY fast chargers, 15/20 mins will take me from about 20% to about 80% of a tank. Never had an issue.

My fuel bill has gone from £300 a month to £60. No clutch, no timing belt to change, no oil changes ever 9k (had a Seat Leon FR before this, which I loved).

I can think of 3 main negatives:

1) Handling is very poor compared to my seat. Just cannot hit corners with the right foot planted like a BMW can etc. However it’s faster to 60, rapid for a car that’s 2400kg.

2) Price. I did get mine pretty cheap but at just over 20k it is still out of reach for many.

3) Reliability - I guess this is still tbc. 
Battery replacement costs (circa £7000) will come down in time. Reliability will improve further. However I take the point that after 10 years batteries will need replaced, this will not suit low mileage drivers. However, big commuters like me will have changed the car long before it hits that age. I am hoping I can get it >150k miles. We shall see 

 

Most feedback I get is that they love the look of the car. People love driving it. However they start off from a place of fear.
Will it charge when it’s below 0c? The range in winter must be tiny…? Etc etc

[CharlieBear9]

Vauxhall owner to close Luton plant

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

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Car giant Stellantis, which owns Vauxhall, has announced it will close its van factory in Luton.

 

Hmm.

[SW Saltire]

 CharlieBear9  I certainly have some sympathy for what the car manufacturers are saying. 22% of all cars too high currently.

There’s no infrastructure for everyone to go EV. 
 

I did read that was the reason for the Ford fiesta and focus going as the chassis could not be converted to an EV easily.

That said, way too much tech is being put in new cars. New car sales across the board are down, the average age of a car has kept rising. 
30k for an E-Corsa… (hahaha). You want a new ford Puma? New honda civic? Etc etc. 
Only car brand that are currently reasonable price wise is Dacia (I exclude MG as I don’t think they’re remotely reliable).

[CharlieBear9]

 SW Saltire Agree about the tech in cars now. I'm looking to get a smallish SUV type and most of them have front light clusters that look more like a festive display crossed with a disco and the dashbords resemble rows of laptops or tablet screens. i think they look horrendous. One thing I've noticed when enquiring about nearly new vehicles is that the dealers' enthusiaism seems to cool markedly if you let it be known that you can pay cash with your part-ex and don't require finance. Shows where they make most of their money I think.

[reef]

 SW Saltire Another one here who has just gone to an EV. Honestly, its brilliant. It's costing me a tenth to run compared to petrol. It's costing me about £3 to run per 100 miles. Servicing is less, VED is cheaper. Long-term is an unknown, but there are a few 10 years old EVs around now and the batteries are holding up well.

I'm convinced there's some sort of fear campaign going on as for a lot of people they would be perfect.

However, one point I will make though is that I charge at home and would not have got one if I couldn't do that. The infrastructure is just not there and like everything in this country these days, most chargers are run by private companies/enterprises and as a result are extortionate. I charge cheaply on Octopus at 6p/kWh overnight, yet public chargers are at an unacceptable 50-70p/kWh generally. At this price, its not far off running a petrol/diesel car. THIS is the problem. As always, like everything in the UK, we don't think long-term and put our money where our mouths are. There should be chargers everywhere now and they should be cheaper to use. Its nearly 2025 for goodness sake. There should be chargers everywhere. Its not good enough.

I won't even start on the situation with how we would charge millions of cars when the grid is woefully underprepared. Again, no forward thinking.

[danm]

Is Climate Change real? Yes, obviously (you'd think we didn't have to state that, but we do).

Are human induced emissions primarily responsible? Yes.

Do we need to reduce carbon emissions and work towards net zero, globally? Ideally. 

Does the UK, as of 2024, contribute much to global CO2 emissions? No.

Will the UK moving to net zero result in some economic damage? Very likely, but it depends on the speed of the transition. 

If we moved fast in getting to net zero, will it make any appreciable difference in GLOBAL emissions? No. 

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So, we're in somewhat of a dilemma. Unless the current big emitters are going to significantly curb their output and transition quickly towards net zero, our efforts are largely in vain, save for some benefits such as improved air quality with the move to EV's for example. Not only in vain, but at some economic cost if we moved too fast. 

There is an argument, as some others have mentioned above, about leading the way and setting an example. That's a nice sentiment, but not realistic. I cannot see India or China making the necessary adjustments, curbing their own economic growth etc just because the UK moved to net zero. 

There is also the argument that the current high emitters were not the countries that pumped out most of the greenhouse gasses that lead to existing warming in the 20th century, and that it is rich countries that did so. This is undoubtedly true, but doesn't really help us moving forward. No one really knew in the late 1800's and early 1900's that climate change could be the result, whereas India and China and other countries are well aware today of the impact of high emissions of greenhouse gasses. But those countries also have to ensure their populations are lifted out of poverty and their economic growth continues. 

There is no easy answer here, but I do not think we should be rushing too quickly towards net zero just for the optics. We'll be shooting ourselves in the foot if other countries don't follow suit. 

[jy]

I dont know anything about EV but a question,if its dumb just ignore it,if we had masses of EVs in the future and we were hacked or there was a massive power cut,would it wreck our emergency  services

[IslaArklayblend]

The Grangemouth effect this afternoon, a day of clean air and good mixing.  Taken from West Lothian Golf Course c600ft amsl.

[reef]

 danm I think we're going about it all wrong in this country. We have this bizarre situation where we can be reliant on cheap, renewable energy, or expensive fossil fuels that we have to import or pay for on the global market even if it's extracted in the UK. It makes no sense. There are times now when the cost of electricity from the grid is actually negative due to a glut of renewable power (e.g on Sunday when it was very windy) yet we continue to tie all energy prices to the price of a therm of gas. This is why some people have been making a killing on tracker energy tariffs.

It's making our energy in the UK extremely expensive (especially post Feb 2022 now the Russian gas has been turned off) as we're reliant on LPG tankered in from Qatar etc. If people actually saw the benefit I imagine they would get right behind it, but instead as usual, regardless of the price the suppliers are paying, the consumer pays much more.

We should be looking at it as being self-sufficient rather than having an effect on climate change. That, I think people would get behind.

[Sky Full]

I have absolutely nothing against electric cars, vans, lorries, or any other electric transport.  I remember electric trolley buses in London and I can’t for the life of me understand why they were phased out.  I long for the day when electric transport is universally the best choice whether it’s powered by batteries, hydrogen fuel cells or some other source of electricity - maybe even under-the-road electromagnetism.  What I have a problem with is forcing manufacturers and consumers into making and buying a product which is not quite ready to compete with ICEs in most people’s lives, using the argument that reducing our carbon emissions to Net Zero will somehow make a measurable difference to climate change.  This policy almost certainly contributed to Vauxhall closing their Luton factory and other manufacturers will not be far behind.  I find it totally ludicrous that our car manufacturers will be penalised £15000 for every ICE vehicle they sell above the annual limit, or they must buy carbon credits from the likes of Tesla and BYD - their direct competitors from other countries!   This is economic suicide and it won’t delay the onset of climate change in any way at all.  If it’s a policy which is born out of a guilt complex because our Industrial Revolution began the problem then consider that there are well over 5 times more people on the planet now than there were in 1850 and our emissions in those days were a fraction of world output today.  China alone has a population exceeding the entire worlds population in 1850 (Worldometer data).  It’s far too late for the UK to be trying to reverse the impact our industries have had on the climate - we must accept that the damage is done and we should be expending every effort on preparing for the climatic conditions we must survive in the future.

Edited November 26 by Sky Full

[cheeky_monkey]

 Sky Full im still not sure why the drive for electric and not liquid hydrogen vehicles ..firstly the infrastructure is already in place (easy to add liquid hydrogen pumps to existing petrol stations) the time to fill up is the same..hydrogen cars are as efficient as diesel cars with zero emissions..water is an abundant resource on the planet and its not a massive stretch to convert liquid water into liquid hydrogen..i know Toyota are now pushing this tech instead of battery power