Should ''March'' become a winter month?

[Snowly does it]

No. Winter meteorlogically is December-February, It can be 10 degrees in June but June is not spring.

Leave the definitions as they are and just accept that unseasonal conditions can and do occur in the transition months seems sensible to me.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Our seasons seem to be heading towards the following:

March-May: Spring

June-September: Summer

October-February: Autumn

(note the absence of one particular season!)

May and September could easily turn into summerlike months, particularly in the case of May. The reason why I contest the view that springlike weather starts earlier is because although our Januarys and Februarys are getting warmer, the hours of daylight aren't increasing. I think of spring as featuring lengthening daylight, rising temperatures and rising sunshine amounts.

However, when I classify seasons, I'm very much in agreement with the Met Office, and use the system of Dec-Feb for winter, Mar-May for spring, June-Aug for summer and Sep-Nov for autumn.

[conor123]

I see 20th Feb - 20th March as the proper winter now, the number of spring snowfalls is also on the increase.

Maybe our leap years are to blame and over time we are making everything move later, many places have hit 15c

today under air which would normally give 11-12c at best in February or March.

I doubt we will ever see a sub zero CET month again, but in 20 years time im pretty certain that February & March will be our 'winter'.

[Gavin P]

NO, because we don't have consistent cold in March (despite whats happened on 2005 and 2006)

However, a more interesting point is September. I think, if the next decade continues with the trend of the last decade, to give exceptionally hot and sunny Septembers, then there may be an arguement for extending the UK summer to cover September (with global warming this is to be expected in time, anyway) Didn't the WMO recently put out a paper on the extending of summer into September? So, clearly the WMO and the Europen Met Offices are looking at this.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Gavin P

[Thundery wintry showers]

I don't agree that spring snowfalls have increased. There have been three Marches in recent years with notable wintry spells- 2001, 2005 and 2006 (more locally in 2004 also). In the 1990s only 1995 and 1996 were on the wintry side, but in earlier decades there were many more, e.g. 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1969, 1970, 1975, 1979, 1980, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987.

The frequency of snow in April did not appear to decline significantly in the 1990s relative to earlier decades, but there seems to have been much less snow around in April during the 00s. Snow in May has also become less frequent; snow fell quite widely in Mays 1979, 1981, 1982, 1987, 1993, 1995 and 1997, but in no May since.

[Nick F]

Conor, I think you are being a bit short-sighted, your basing your 'winter' in Feb-March on the basis of the last few years, rather than the last, say, 10 years. Feb 2002 and March 2003 were very mild, the later certainly can't be classed as a winter month on a cold basis. As Gavin said, cold weather in the UK is never consistent each year in particular months. We saw cold and wintry weather in November and December last year - but not this year.

[conor123]

I don't agree that spring snowfalls have increased. There have been three Marches in recent years with notable wintry spells- 2001, 2005 and 2006 (more locally in 2004 also). In the 1990s only 1995 and 1996 were on the wintry side, but in earlier decades there were many more, e.g. 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1969, 1970, 1975, 1979, 1980, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987.

The frequency of snow in April did not appear to decline significantly in the 1990s relative to earlier decades, but there seems to have been much less snow around in April during the 00s. Snow in May has also become less frequent; snow fell quite widely in Mays 1979, 1981, 1982, 1987, 1993, 1995 and 1997, but in no May since.

It was pretty cold at the end of May this year apparently (i was in Rome so cant confirm), but frequency of snowfalls are declining

anyway.

March 2002 did provide some snow http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2002/...00220020302.png

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2002/...00220020314.png

However there was very little snow in March 2003 but snow in the south east in April

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2003/...00220030403.png

As for September warmth thats been a feature for some time now:

2000: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2000/...00220000912.png

2001: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2001/...00220010929.png

2002: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2002/...00220020914.png

2003: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2003/...00220030916.png

2004: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2004/...00220040905.png

2005: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2005/...00220050904.png

Edited December 29, 2006 by conor123

[Zerouali lives]

Good topic this. I think September should be classed as a Summer month but March should still probably stay as Spring, although Winter's have been at their most severe later on in the Winter in recent years, 14" of snow in Aberdeen last March for example. The seasons definitely seem to coming 'later'.

[conor123]

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2006/...00220060409.png

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2006/...00220060410.png

The event of 9/10th April this year was quite odd though, Kent having 6 inches of snow in April is not normal.

[mushymanrob]

no, the idea is silly! sorry but i havnt read all the pages here so excuse me if im replicating posts.

why should march be called 'winter'? when the equinox is on the 21st, spring flowers are well into bloom, birds are nesting, frogs spawning and more often then not temperatures are mild!

calling march winter will not make it any colder!

[conor123]

no, the idea is silly! sorry but i havnt read all the pages here so excuse me if im replicating posts.

why should march be called 'winter'? when the equinox is on the 21st, spring flowers are well into bloom, birds are nesting, frogs spawning and more often then not temperatures are mild!

calling march winter will not make it any colder!

Spring flowers were well into bloom 2 weeks ago due to this exception mild.

I expect more often December will be mild, and March will frequently become colder than December

over the next few years.

[Cymru]

No, March should stay where it belongs ... in Spring. The temperatures are warming up, the birds are singing and any snow that does fall usually melts after a few hours. As for September, well I'd call it a Summer month really but it properly belongs in Autumn and that's where it should stay. If we start changing the seasons around according to the weather we get, then we could call December an Autumn month the way things have been this year

[nick sussex]

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2006/...00220060409.png

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2006/...00220060410.png

The event of 9/10th April this year was quite odd though, Kent having 6 inches of snow in April is not normal.

Yes I remember it well. Typical that I slept through it all only to be shocked in the morning, it was very localized however, although we did get several cms here. As for March becoming a winter month, a definite no, we may well get some wintry weather during this month but its spring, its only that in recent years we have had some good snowfall in March but I can remember many mild Marches.

Its always frustrating when you get the perfect set up too late in the season but in the UK you just make the best of it whenever you get some snow.

[Bottesford]

As for September warmth thats been a feature for some time now:

2000: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2000/...00220000912.png

2001: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2001/...00220010929.png

2002: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2002/...00220020914.png

2003: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2003/...00220030916.png

2004: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2004/...00220040905.png

2005: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/2005/...00220050904.png

Aaaahh!! Don't show me charts like those this time of year - makes me pine for summer and welcoming that lovely 15c isotherm days...

You know, in July it snows and has cold days on the Greenland ice sheet but is unlikely to be classified as winter anytime soon.

[Snowly does it]

However, a more interesting point is September. I think, if the next decade continues with the trend of the last decade, to give exceptionally hot and sunny Septembers, then there may be an arguement for extending the UK summer to cover September (with global warming this is to be expected in time, anyway) Didn't the WMO recently put out a paper on the extending of summer into September? So, clearly the WMO and the Europen Met Offices are looking at this.

Indeed, the average CET for the last 10 years is identical for June and September (14.9)

[mushymanrob]

Spring flowers were well into bloom 2 weeks ago due to this exception mild.

I expect more often December will be mild, and March will frequently become colder than December

over the next few years.

ive not ever seen 'spring' flowers blooming this early, although some winter flowering plants do flower early most years.

theres no daffs, no tulips, forsythia, celendines, crocus etc etc etc, only winter flowering shrubs such as jasmine and mahonia plus some varieties of prunus.

..... anyway, the seasons definitions arnt decided by temperature, so what if september is a hot 'un? so early autumn is warmer then in the past! its no big deal.

[MP-R]

This is one very interesting thread. One thing I will say is that there were still green trees in the middle of November and already there are a few snowdrops and daffodils coming out in my back garden. My neighbour's magnolia is beginning to show signs of blooming. Clearly autumn has left and allowed spring to arrive without a winter.

If I look at the last few winters, all the months very enormously:

November 2002 - Mild and exceedingly wet

November 2003 - Mild with average rainfall

November 2004 - Cool and dry

November 2005 - Very Cold with average rainfall

November 2006 - Very mild and exceedingly wet

December 2002 - Mild and very wet

December 2003 - Average temperatures and rainfall

December 2004 - Mild with average rainfall

December 2005 - Cold with average rainfall

December 2006 - Very mild and wet

January 2002 - Very mild with average rainfall

January 2003 - Mild and generally wet

January 2004 - Average temperatures but very wet

January 2005 - Cold with average rainfall

January 2006 - Very cold and dry

February 2002 - Average temperatures and rainfall

February 2003 - Cold and dry

February 2004 - Cold and dry

February 2005 - Cold with average rainfall

February 2006 - Cold with average rainfall

March 2002 - Average temperatures and rainfall

March 2003 - Very mild and dry

March 2004 - Cold and wet

March 2005 - Average temperature and wet

March 2006 - Cold and wet

If anything, February is the real snowy month - "midwinter" - March is a changing period.

[Northernlights]

Since coming to live here in 1962 I have always seen wintry weather in March and April with numerous days of soft hail and snow showers, for instance late March early April 1968 where having sown half a field of barley before 4 inches of snow fell one evening 2 weeks later when the other half was finally sown after the snow had melted the first half was through the ground. We moved here from London and my mother always said Scottish springs were very cold and very late . This will have a lot to do with sea temperatures which will be approaching their lowest levels of the winter at this time so if we do get a northerly airstream it will invariably snow even if temperatures are quite high in any sunny intervels. Cold snowy weather is guranteed if I say in mid April we will put the cattle out in a weeks time !!!! What has really changed is the lack of any really hard air frost in November or December with grass continuing to grow and the leaves staying on the trees for longer, we have given up growing potatoes which break dormancey early and are sprouting in an ambient store before Xmas and can no longer be sold. 40 years ago we had to add more staw depth as the autumn progressed to protect them from increasingly harder frosts after lifting them in mid October We now grow one old variety which will not sprout till mid March.

[West is Best]

The way things are Currently Going the British Climate will be classed as -

Jan - Feb Winter

March - April - Spring

May - October - Summer

November - December Autumn-

Steve

Actually I think there's a lot of truth in this. As far as classifying seasons there's no reason to divide the 4 up evenly, and given the way temperatrures are generally rising (though it won't be linear) then the above is a pretty good assessment.

At the same time Paul/OON do have a point: it doesn't really make any difference what we call them!

[mushymanrob]

This is one very interesting thread. One thing I will say is that there were still green trees in the middle of November and already there are a few snowdrops and daffodils coming out in my back garden. My neighbour's magnolia is beginning to show signs of blooming.

sorry but i simply dont believe that there are daffodils 'about to come out', assuming that 'coming out' means flowering which is what we in the trade call 'flowering'. daffodils are up, they always come up in november, for many years ive always waited until they showed their heads above the soil so i didnt dig them up when tending the boarders.

its not unusual for snowdrops to be evident at this time of year, although mine are as yet nowhere to be seen, unlike other years! same with magnolia.

[jethro]

sorry but i simply dont believe that there are daffodils 'about to come out', assuming that 'coming out' means flowering which is what we in the trade call 'flowering'. daffodils are up, they always come up in november, for many years ive always waited until they showed their heads above the soil so i didnt dig them up when tending the boarders.

its not unusual for snowdrops to be evident at this time of year, although mine are as yet nowhere to be seen, unlike other years! same with magnolia.

Hate to be an anorak but....I agree entirely. Plant winter dormancy is governed by light as much as temperature; they begin to grow proper and bloom according to the hours of daylight. Regardless of how cold or warm it may be, they flower pretty much on cue and will continue to do so. The only major impact being if we have late spring frosts which hit blooms; even then the damage is caused not so much by the cold but by the rapid thaw induced by early morning sun.

[Stratos Ferric]

I thought that, predominantly, it was a winter month, or has somebody moved the solstices and equinoxes without checking with me first?

This question recurs periodically and hinges on why we compartmentalise at all. The Met O uses three three month seasons, and one assumes for reasons of simplicity these seasons start and finish on the 1st of the first month in ech set of three. In theory they might follow the equinoxes / solstices but one problem would be that these do not always occur ont he same day of the month; therefore, you lose strict like-for-like comparability.

Simply because March is snowier than December it is hardly a compelling argument for change. I think if you study the records this will often have been true. In my youth April was snowier than December is now. On your proposed definition the day will come in the not too distant when we go straight from Autumn to Spring without winter at all.

Let's not get confused between the consistent use of constant data sets for statistical purposes, and the labelling of weather as "wintry": wintry weather can occur anytime between October and June (well, that used to be the case: Nov - Apr is the current limit).

Hate to be an anorak but....I agree entirely. Plant winter dormancy is governed by light as much as temperature; they begin to grow proper and bloom according to the hours of daylight. Regardless of how cold or warm it may be, they flower pretty much on cue and will continue to do so. The only major impact being if we have late spring frosts which hit blooms; even then the damage is caused not so much by the cold but by the rapid thaw induced by early morning sun.

I'm sorry, but that's patently NOT true. Plants grow according to light AND temperature. The growth process is a complex chemical reaction and this is catalysed by temperature. Plants and animals respond to weather condtions NOT to the calendar; in the right conditions they will continue to flourish - pre-Christmas there was a news feature highlighting the continued availability of raspberries in Scotland.

If your argument were true then how would you explain the fact that most species have a longer growing season at sea level than they do at high altitude? There is no difference in light (in fact, at altitude, there will be more light); the only relevant difference will be temperature.

If memory serves me right the cut-off point for growth is 5C. Not hard to see why lawns like mine, which once upon a time didn't need cutting from December - March, now appear fairly ragged by mid January. Note - the annual progression of the sun has not changed. Also, I read a report recently suggesting that the measured growing season has lengthened by about 20 days in, I think, the last twenty years or so.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Stratos Ferric

[Bottesford]

Let's not get confused between the consistent use of constant data sets for statistical purposes, and the labelling of weather as "wintry": wintry weather can occur anytime between October and June (well, that used to be the case: Nov - Apr is the current limit).

Also depends on your definition of 'wintry' too. If you mean snow or sleet then anywhere Nov-April is possible here. If you mean sub 6c days (most of winter does seem to consist of 5c maxes I've found) then Oct-March is prob your limits. If you mean frost then Oct-May maybe. If you mean settling snow & ice days then Nov-Feb probably.

[Stratos Ferric]

...I expect more often December will be mild, and March will frequently become colder than December

over the next few years.

March colder than December isn't that unusual; on average it occurs around 1 winter in 4. There is NO CHANCE whatsoever, however, of the December mean rising above the March mean. The gap is around 2C, and largely driven by increased insolation: remember, in late March the daylight is stretching to 13hrs, and the sun is much higher in the sky. There's no evidence that GW will ever effect the months differentially. So long as that's the case March will always be warmer than December.

[Kentish Man]

What I think sometimes happens is that cold Marches occasionally follow mild winters. March 1975 was quite memorable in my area and was colder than the preceding 3 winter months. Consequently any wintry weather in these cold Marches is all the more noticeable.

I think a good point was made earlier when it was said there is no specific reason why the seasons should be of equal length. However as we in the UK tend to have weather rather than climate (as the old saying goes) there seems little point in changing the current met office definitions. The strength of the sun also has to be a factor - you can sit out in a pub garden on a warm day in mid-March and it certainly doesn't feel like winter. A warm day in mid- September doesnt have the burning tropical feel of a similar day in July.