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Has UK warming now gone up to Stage 3


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Posted
  • Location: Steeton, W Yorks, 270m ASL
  • Location: Steeton, W Yorks, 270m ASL
I've got to dash out, so I'll elaborate later, but basically any form of trading is open to exploitation. Whether the trading involves buying carbon credits with actual money or with another commodity, it leaves open the door for the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer. The poorer the country, the more likely they'll have to use dirty fuels, so the more carbon credits they'll need and so on. Capitalism at its worst.

C-Bob

Oddly enough I have a mate who's working in this area right now and, you may find this remarkable and it certainly panders to our preconceptions / misconceptions, the flow is actually in the other direction. He is selling Chinese credits back to Italian firms. There is quite a lot of World Bank funding going on to the development of eastern economies, and new build can easily invest in the latest technology without having to write down existing plant - as would be the case in the west. By investing in audited plants and processes carbon credits are earned and can be traded back wherever - in this case to the west.

You're right, capitalism at its worst, but I suspect for quite the opposite reasons you suspected.

Longer term, however, I would fully expect the system to start to work against polluters. Whether it's a consumption tax at source (which would drive unit proces up for "dirty" produce), application of carbon ratings / labels, or new technologies bringing cost advantage, the market will eventually be brought to bear. Yes, it's open to exploitation, but show me an element of the market anywhere that isn't.

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Posted
  • Location: A small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Guildford, Surrey
  • Location: A small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Guildford, Surrey
Oddly enough I have a mate who's working in this area right now and, you may find this remarkable and it certainly panders to our preconceptions / misconceptions, the flow is actually in the other direction. He is selling Chinese credits back to Italian firms. There is quite a lot of World Bank funding going on to the development of eastern economies, and new build can easily invest in the latest technology without having to write down existing plant - as would be the case in the west. By investing in audited plants and processes carbon credits are earned and can be traded back wherever - in this case to the west.

You're right, capitalism at its worst, but I suspect for quite the opposite reasons you suspected.

Longer term, however, I would fully expect the system to start to work against polluters. Whether it's a consumption tax at source (which would drive unit proces up for "dirty" produce), application of carbon ratings / labels, or new technologies bringing cost advantage, the market will eventually be brought to bear. Yes, it's open to exploitation, but show me an element of the market anywhere that isn't.

A surprising piece of information, but I still suspect that the shoe will hop to the other foot in a few years' time when Carbon Credits and Carbon Trading become firmly established (as I expect they will). It is true that all markets are open to exploitation, but then that's part of the problem - turning the issue of climate change into a new market. A "No Regrets"-type policy that actually encourages development of other forms of fuel is a far better approach than this Carbon Trading mullarky - a policy that encourages development and penalises backwards-thinking or apathy, as opposed to a policy that will, in time, encourage cunning, backstabbing, profiteering and corner-cutting.

However, I must be careful not to be too dismissive, so I will investigate this issue further... :)

C-Bob

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Posted
  • Location: Lincoln, Lincolnshire
  • Weather Preferences: Sunshine, convective precipitation, snow, thunderstorms, "episodic" months.
  • Location: Lincoln, Lincolnshire

I, too, tend towards "no-regrets" type policies as the primary short-term solution; if they aren't as effective at bringing about change as we would like, the rationing, emissions trading and environmental taxes ('stick' measures) are still ready and available to use in conjunction with them where necessary.

Elsewhere on the forum I have suggested a form of "No Regrets" policy which actually offers incentives to businesses to research, and then switch to, cleaner forms of fuel, and penalises them for failing to do so. This is a sensible, practical approach as fossil fuels are not going to last forever even if they have no impact on the environment - not researching new, cleaner forms of fuel is only going to end up biting us in the bum years down the line.

Not sure about whether carbon trading is good or bad myself, but I agree 100% with the points I've just quoted.

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