Bad news for the low paid and carers

[Iceberg]

I don't think the law is much different re mileage.

I am actually all for an increase in fuel duty, but the real problem (re congestion) is in urban areas so I am not sure why rural people need to pay.

Work from Home......emmm......definately.

I've got an ISDN line put in from work and I do frequently.

Not sure it makes me more productive, but it's much better for me.

[eddie]

I agree with this (I've been much exercised about that pernicious little bill to exempt MPs from FOI the so and so's are trying to sneak in so I should do) but...how do we deal with more and more cars and the congestion and pollution they produce?

That's a good question! Firstly I think congestion and CO2 reduction need to be treated as two separate issues. If you look at how the road pricing is going to work, people who drive 100+ miles along the motorway to work could potentially pay less road tax than somebody who drives 5 miles on more congested roads. Over a year who emits more C02?

I also have no faith whatsover that the government could possibly deliver an IT system so huge that it would dwarf anything that has gone before without cocking it up. Just look at how badly almost every single government IT project in the past few years has been implemented (Google "NHS IT problems"). I have no doubt that they would make 1000s of people lives miserable via incorrect charging and fines levied. Remember that this money will come straight out of your bank account when you drive and it would be down to YOU to prove you didn't make that 1000 mile journey around the centre of Manchester or wherever.

I just think it's going to be horribly flawed and be of no benefit to reducing CO2 emissions.

[Devonian]

That's a good question! Firstly I think congestion and CO2 reduction need to be treated as two separate issues. If you look at how the road pricing is going to work, people who drive 100+ miles along the motorway to work could potentially pay less road tax than somebody who drives 5 miles on more congested roads. Over a year who emits more C02?

I also have no faith whatsover that the government could possibly deliver an IT system so huge that it would dwarf anything that has gone before without cocking it up. Just look at how badly almost every single government IT project in the past few years has been implemented (Google "NHS IT problems"). I have no doubt that they would make 1000s of people lives miserable via incorrect charging and fines levied. Remember that this money will come straight out of your bank account when you drive and it would be down to YOU to prove you didn't make that 1000 mile journey around the centre of Manchester or wherever.

I just think it's going to be horribly flawed and be of no benefit to reducing CO2 emissions.

Certainly the usefulness/reliability/value for money record of large IT systems isn't good. Otoh, the, much smaller, road pricing system in London works?

[eddie]

Certainly the usefulness/reliability/value for money record of large IT systems isn't good. Otoh, the, much smaller, road pricing system in London works?

The London scheme does seem to work and it also doesn't use satellite tracking. I certainly don't have anything against charging people to enter cities to cut congestion. It's really the surveillance that worries me.

We also shouldn't forget that London has the best public transport system in the UK. The same cannot be said for other cities in the UK. As with all efforts to get people out of their cars there has to be an alternative or it just becomes another tax.

[The PIT]

Too late to start fretting now!

the lowest paid (for the job they do) are the 'attendance allowance' carers and their job is 'in house' so the travelling/car isn't an issue.

I don't see anyone waving banners about the plight of the millions of husbands ,wifes, sons and daughters who give up their lives/careers/relationships for to care for a loved one (often 'quilted' into it by the appalling Govt. provisions).

To exist 1p above the Govt. designated poverty line, whilst struggling (emotionally, financially and physically) to keep up to the job at hand and you think they are impacted by road tolls???. And when their 'work' is over? no career to pick up, no mortgage half paid off, no foriegn hols, no thanks for a job well done and Govt. money saved on hospital/care home bills just a dead loved one.

Yes, CO2 is an issue but keep it real folks and try and see what is already happening if you want to emotively bleat on about something!!!!

Lovely ignorant reply. Guess what I do, and say I work all day as well. Quite a few people are like that but they haven't time to go around waving placards and going on marches. You seem to think that Carers get money and hand outs they don't. It's one long battle to even get your case reconised and then even longer one to get the appropiate needs assessed. Any tolls and further restrictions could be a major headache for me.

Anyway back on subject. I think toll roads should only be considered after they got the public transport system sorted out. And only then.

[Nick H]

Fact: there are too many cars on Britain's roads.

I notice a lot of arguments made against road pricing run along the lines, "a car is an essential, it won't stop congestion, it's just another tax". This is a desperate argument. The fact is, there is a lot of evidence that road pricing does reduce congestion. The Congestion Charge in London has done just that. And a car is not an essential.

There is no need for surveillance, either. I don't like cameras. You can just as well charge people at toll houses, or throw a coin into a hopper like at the Dartford Crossing.

Please, no one suggest building more roads. Every time this happens you simply create additional traffic. Say's Law: supply creates it's own demand. Yet again, they are widening the western stretch of the M25 by Heathrow; yet again, it will result in traffic coming off the side roads and onto the additional lane. So no effect whatsoever. It defeats me why the authorities continue to concrete over green and pleasant land when it has no effect on reducing traffic. Einstein defined insanity pretty well, "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get different results."

TWS, Strasbourg is the seat of the European Parliament, it's hardly surprising if they have a decent transport system.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Nick H

[Thundery wintry showers]

TWS, Strasbourg is the seat of the European Parliament, it's hardly surprising if they have a decent transport system.

Aye; Mr Data has pointed that out a couple of times, but still, it shows what is possible.

I'm not an advocate of mass road-building either. In a balanced transport system where private motoring was in competition with alternatives to car use, I would seriously question the application of Say's Law (it's more likely in that case that traffic would grow, but to a lesser extent than the increase in road space, resulting in more cars but less congestion). However, in reality traffic is still growing; therefore, building new roads would only be likely to reduce congestion in the short term, and we'd have to build many new roads before we exhausted all the potential excess demand.

I am in favour of increasing traffic flow efficiency on existing roads while in the meantime implementing other measures to halt traffic growth, though, because that doesn't involve eating into land in the way that road building does.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Thundery wintry showers

[Gray-Wolf]

Lovely ignorant reply. Guess what I do, and say I work all day as well. Quite a few people are like that but they haven't time to go around waving placards and going on marches. You seem to think that Carers get money and hand outs they don't. It's one long battle to even get your case reconised and then even longer one to get the appropiate needs assessed. Any tolls and further restrictions could be a major headache for me.

So apart from my disabilities and my terminal , physically disabled,developmentally delayed lad (who has had 24hr care for the 11 1/2yrs of a life that was supposed to last 18 months apart from [according to his genetisist] the exceptional level of care he recieves) the battles with Specialists, doctors, occupational therapists,social care directorates, 'care companies' (prior to going Direct payments), the begging from charities for basic equipments to suit his needs, the begging to Motability for a grant to top up the 'award' to one that will provide a wheelchair access vehicle, the endless applying for grants to modify our home to suit, the scuppering of my career and the ceasation of my partners. The charity work to keep funded his saturday morning 'music group', the loans to purchase 'novel' medical equipment with which we can bring a greater quality of life to Luke, the learning of various instruments to feed his love of music apart from all that where does my ignorance lie.......appologies welcome.

[The PIT]

Well another they could do is remove those illegal drivers you know those ones without licenses banned no insurance. That would probably remove 25% of the cars.

As for the car not being essential. What happens if you live out in the sticks or are just supposed to be a farmer????

[Nick H]

As for the car not being essential. What happens if you live out in the sticks or are just supposed to be a farmer????

No one is putting a gun to your head. It is your choice where you work and where you live.

[Iceberg]

No one is putting a gun to your head. It is your choice where you work and where you live.

You can't include rural areas in a congestion charge, it's not your choice where you live, if you've been brought up in the rural area, all your family in a rural area etc.

They would lose all charecter and turn into old peoples and rich peoples playgrounds.

I live at least 5 miles from the nearest semi-decent shop, the bus service doesn't operate before 10.15am, therefore I need my car, unless you don't think I have a right to live where I've been brought up, grew up etc.

[Nick H]

You can't include rural areas in a congestion charge, it's not your choice where you live, if you've been brought up in the rural area, all your family in a rural area etc.

They would lose all charecter and turn into old peoples and rich peoples playgrounds.

I live at least 5 miles from the nearest semi-decent shop, the bus service doesn't operate before 10.15am, therefore I need my car, unless you don't think I have a right to live where I've been brought up, grew up etc.

You obviously didn't read what I said. I said it is your choice where you choose to live.

You're right in that there's no point in road charging in rural Dorset (not that Dorset's an archetypal working class county , in fact if any county's a playground for old and rich people, it's Dorset), it's urban and surburban areas where it's needed. Charging the same for someone using the western section of the M25 and the country track leading up to the banks of the Frome or Piddle is clearly absurd. A good system would hammer the traffic on the M25 and let traffic pass through rural roads for little or nothing.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Nick H

[The PIT]

No one is putting a gun to your head. It is your choice where you work and where you live.

An arrogant attitude my friend. Not everyone has loads of money. I can't afford to move or lose my job it was bad enough finding work at 30 let alone 40 plus.

You obviously didn't read what I said. I said it is your choice where you choose to live.

You're right in that there's no point in road charging in rural Dorset (not that Dorset's an archetypal working class county , in fact if any county's a playground for old and rich people, it's Dorset), it's urban and surburban areas where it's needed. Charging the same for someone using the western section of the M25 and the country track leading up to the banks of the Frome or Piddle is clearly absurd. A good system would hammer the traffic on the M25 and let traffic pass through rural roads for little or nothing.

I think I'll buy a caravan.

[Dave Clarke]

You can't include rural areas in a congestion charge, it's not your choice where you live, if you've been brought up in the rural area, all your family in a rural area etc.

They would lose all charecter and turn into old peoples and rich peoples playgrounds.

I live at least 5 miles from the nearest semi-decent shop, the bus service doesn't operate before 10.15am, therefore I need my car, unless you don't think I have a right to live where I've been brought up, grew up etc.

Hey matt, you could cycle

[cheeky_monkey]

dear oh dear...most ppl who post on this subject have jus got no idea..and live in this perfect world of recycling...vilfying car use etc etc...stuff u lot im keeping my car..im not travelling on public transport with load of drunks..teenagers...oaps ...moaners and wingers..BO ...standing in the rain and snow waitng 4 a bus or train..i value my freedom plus i need my car 4work..i work in construction and run 3-4 diff sites how the hell could i get from job 2 job 2 job???...car drivers pay £40 billion in tax already..and where does it all go huh???..not on public transport thats 4 sure!!

[The PIT]

CM it's your choice to go between the building sites.

Anyone know why Modern buses don't have any storage space???? Damn you can't do you big shop you've got nowhere to put it.

One day I decided to use park and ride at our local Tesco's. Pick the car up and then do the shopping. Sadly they routed the bus through the busiest roads and most of the time it was at walking pace or less. A 15 - 20 minute drive took an extra hour. Needless to say I didn't bother using it again. It was also fairly empty so using my car would have been more enviromentally friendly anyway.

[Nick H]

To be honest, I get fed up with the bleating motorist moaning about how motorists are an "easy target" and suchlike. The fact is, the cost of motoring in real terms has fallen over the last decade. Significantly, this does not reflect the fact that there is a large gap between the private costs of motoring and the social costs of motoring. There is a big "externality" gap: congestion, environmental damage that is not reflected in the private cost. That gap is too large, and needs to be reduced. And I'm afraid that all economic studies done on this support that propositon.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Nick H

[Thundery wintry showers]

What about the social benefits of motoring though? These include the ability for passengers to get lifts places by motorists (particularly useful for those who don't drive and live in areas with poor public transport, for example), the sociability of 'going for a trip out' with a few occupants per vehicle is another example.

This also illustrates the point that, as well as motoring being less anti-social in areas where congestion is lower, it is also more sociable when people are travelling two or more people per car; one person per car is often genuinely anti-social overall.

It's certainly true that motoring has external social costs associated with it, particularly on the environment side, but if we are to provide an analysis on the social effects of motoring, it's not a fair analysis to only consider costs and not benefits.

[Nick H]

Hi TWS,

There are indeed social benefits, but nevertheless it remains the case that the private costs of motoring do not reflect the social cost. In other words the social benefits do not outweigh the social costs, taking into account the current private cost of motoring.

[cheeky_monkey]

To be honest, I get fed up with the bleating motorist moaning about how motorists are an "easy target" and suchlike. The fact is, the cost of motoring in real terms has fallen over the last decade. Significantly, this does not reflect the fact that there is a large gap between the private costs of motoring and the social costs of motoring. There is a big "externality" gap: congestion, environmental damage that is not reflected in the private cost. That gap is too large, and needs to be reduced. And I'm afraid that all economic studies done on this support that propositon.

what is the gap..prey tell?..how do define what equates 2 what??

[The PIT]

To be honest, I get fed up with the bleating motorist moaning about how motorists are an "easy target" and suchlike. The fact is, the cost of motoring in real terms has fallen over the last decade. Significantly, this does not reflect the fact that there is a large gap between the private costs of motoring and the social costs of motoring. There is a big "externality" gap: congestion, environmental damage that is not reflected in the private cost. That gap is too large, and needs to be reduced. And I'm afraid that all economic studies done on this support that propositon.

I guess your a cyclist then.

Can't see the costs of motoring have dropped in the last decade. Fuels gone up Insurance has gone up you may argue that the actual price of a new car has gone down in real terms. The day to day running certainly has gone up though. It's still cheaper for me to take the car to work than it is to use a bus as I'll be paying for it anyway sat on the drive.

I think everyone agrees that something needs to be done but it's method of doing it thats the problem.

The first step is improving public transport. This needs removing from the profits for the shareholders syndrome. So basically it needs to be run as a public service. Yes it will need to make a profit. But the money needs to be returned into buying better buses etc. Loss making routes should be placed agianst profit making routes to reduce the tax load. This will encourage services to those nasty people who happen to be born and live in villages. Fares need to be low enough to encourage drivers back. Services between cities need to be improved to cater for those people who went hunting for jobs and were evil enough to get them in other towns.

Studies are okay but they tend to one dimensional and like to leave people out at the fringes that still need catering for.

Once the public transport is in place then you can use the stick. Remember London's Bus transport system is different to other towns and cities so quoting that as succesful is misleading. Last time I heard small shop owners weren't to happy as it's hit there business.

Anyway long term congestion charging own't work as companies will have to pay the fees to recruit so a rebalancing will take place.

If you care to ask any Motorist who's driving between cities to work if he/she enjoys it he/she will say no. If you gave them a chance of sitting in a clean train and then Bus which got them there for less and quicker they'll take your right hand off.

I once worked for Trinity and All saints Collegue Horesfield Leeds. To get there for 08:30 in the morning I would have to leave at 5:00 in the morning and walk into town. The train service from Sheffield to Leeds was that bad. Going back the other way finnishing at 17:00 I wouldn't get back home until around 21:00 as the trains wouldn't match up.

So I bought a car and moved back to Sheffield asap.

Edited May 26, 2007 by The PIT

[HighPressure]

Motorist's are already taxed to the hilt with the more mileage you do the more you pay. There is nothing in the UK that raises more tax revenue for the government. If this money was fed directly back to the environment it could easily offset the motorist impact either via technological advances in cars themselves or via other measures. I do not subscribe to taxation as a measure against AGW simply because it penalises the poorest and leaves the well off unaffected.

Just to add that there is no real alternative to the car, public transport cannot get you where you want to go in the same time and at the same expense in confort. Just imagine how good the public transport system the car driver has funded time and time again that has yet has yet to appear could have been? The money has been nicked as will further taxation. You also have to understand why the car is so heavily used today, most is on work transportation at the request of our governments over the yrs suggesting we look further afield for work. The people have spread out from their town or city bases not because they are selfish but because work places have closed, property prices have risen forcing them to up sticks and commute.

There really are massive social questions here, and I am afraid its all too easy for some to jump on the bandwagon without any real thought on the subject.

Edited May 26, 2007 by HighPressure

[The PIT]

Sheffield used to have the a very good public transport system and empty roads. A system that would make Nick H green with envy. Along came Margerat Thatcher and ruined it. Come to that she ruined a lot of things as well. Sadly Labour contined on the same course.

There are signs that the first steps are being made to take us back to the past.

Remember it easier to tax rather than actually doing something that will cost you more in the short term.

Edited May 26, 2007 by The PIT

[Derbyshire_snow]

To be honest, I get fed up with the bleating motorist moaning about how motorists are an "easy target" and suchlike. The fact is, the cost of motoring in real terms has fallen over the last decade. Significantly, this does not reflect the fact that there is a large gap between the private costs of motoring and the social costs of motoring. There is a big "externality" gap: congestion, environmental damage that is not reflected in the private cost. That gap is too large, and needs to be reduced. And I'm afraid that all economic studies done on this support that propositon.

Costs of motoring dropped are you having a laugh 96p a litre for petrol thousands of pounds in Insurance now road tolls they are taking the Swearing AGAIN and our country is going to get even worse.

Buisnesses will be hit badly like hauliers will be forced to up there prices and many other buisnesses Not to mention the poorly paid people

If gordon Brown is for the people as he says he is he will stop this as it is the most ridiculous idea i have ever heard.

Sheffield used to have the a very good public transport system and empty roads. A system that would make Nick H green with envy. Along came Margerat Thatcher and ruined it. Come to that she ruined a lot of things as well. Sadly Labour contined on the same course.

There are signs that the first steps are being made to take us back to the past.

Remember it easier to tax rather than actually doing something that will cost you more in the short term.

Used to yes it is Diabolical now and It's all down To the bus company FIRST over charging people if you look on the sheffield forum the general feeling towards first is very Negative at best.

[The PIT]

Costs of motoring dropped are you having a laugh 96p a litre for petrol thousands of pounds in Insurance now road tolls they are taking the Swearing AGAIN and our country is going to get even worse.

Buisnesses will be hit badly like hauliers will be forced to up there prices and many other buisnesses Not to mention the poorly paid people

If gordon Brown is for the people as he says he is he will stop this as it is the most ridiculous idea i have ever heard.

Used to yes it is Diabolical now and It's all down To the bus company FIRST over charging people if you look on the sheffield forum the general feeling towards first is very Negative at best.

Ssshhh you'll upset Nick H. Besides you live in a village called Dronfield you should move into Sheffield. :lol: :lol: