First Snow of the season!

[Don]

You need not travel all the way to Austria C the snow has appeared in Scotland http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highla...nds/7018182.stm Yippeeeee

The Met Office only said it would be noticeably colder than last year, the second warmest Winter on record. I suspect that if the Met Office are correct with their forecast, this Winter will be typical of those of the last 10 years i.e. relatively mild.

:lol:

[Rustynailer]

The Met Office only said it would be noticeably colder than last year, the second warmest Winter on record. I suspect that if the Met Office are correct with their forecast, this Winter will be typical of those of the last 10 years i.e. relatively mild.

I hope not I can understand why you are saying that though, it is with good reason :lol:

[SP1986]

Optimistically speaking, even the mild winters had some snowy spells, so even if it turns out how the met-office suggest it will be I would be very surprised if there wasnt any snow, so its not all a loss really.

[Somerset Squall]

Optimistically speaking, even the mild winters had some snowy spells, so even if it turns out how the met-office suggest it will be I would be very surprised if there wasnt any snow, so its not all a loss really.

Indeed, I would be pleased with just one spell of snow as I didn't have any snow last year. Of course, more than one spell would be fantastic.

[Don]

Optimistically speaking, even the mild winters had some snowy spells, so even if it turns out how the met-office suggest it will be I would be very surprised if there wasnt any snow, so its not all a loss really.

No, not at all. Even though the Winters of the last 10 years have been generally mild, there seems to have been a bias towards more snow in the last five years. For instance, some of us southerners had the biggest snowfall since 1991 on February 9th this year and we've had Winter 1995/6 since 1991 and not forgeting the fact that it was the second warmest on record of course! Whereas I virtually saw no snow during the Winters of the late 90's.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Don

[SP1986]

No, not at all. Even though the Winters of the last 10 years have been generally mild, there seems to have been a bias towards more snow in the last five years. For instance, some of us southerners had the biggest snowfall since 1991 on February 9th this year and we've had Winter 1995/6 since 1991 and not forgeting the fact that it was the second warmest on record of course! Whereas I virtually saw no snow during the Winters of the late 90's.

Agreed, although snow has been more frequent in occurrence its been disappointingly showery, and hasnt tended to last long really. March 2006 certainly put an end to that (except for the melting right away bit), with nearly a foot of snow here!

I think where we have gone wrong is precisely that - not that we dont get snow, and not even that we wont continue to get snow because Im sure we will, however it is that the snow doesnt settle as much and doesnt last as long as it used to - a sure sign its warming, however at least we will continue to see snow in the future, at least falling anyway.

[Don]

Agreed, although snow has been more frequent in occurrence its been disappointingly showery, and hasnt tended to last long really. March 2006 certainly put an end to that (except for the melting right away bit), with nearly a foot of snow here!

I think where we have gone wrong is precisely that - not that we dont get snow, and not even that we wont continue to get snow because Im sure we will, however it is that the snow doesnt settle as much and doesnt last as long as it used to - a sure sign its warming, however at least we will continue to see snow in the future, at least falling anyway.

That is absolutely true about the snow not lasting now. During the Winters of the mid 80's (which I'm lucky enough to remember), lying snow would stay on the ground for 1 to 2 weeks before thawing. Now, like in February this year the snow barely lasted on the ground for 1 to 2 days! I think this is partly due to the distinct lack of Autumnal and Winter frosts meaning ground temperatures are high, plus the heat lag around from the general warming trend. A similar thing happened during the cold spell in February 2005. We had two weeks of generally cold weather and frequent snow falls, but the snow never accumalated to much, because it thawed so rapidly after each fall.

[mackerel sky]

I was surprised in February because we had a run of several nights before the snow came when the temperature consistently dipped below -5C. I thought that might have restricted the snow thawing by day and would melt top down rather than bottom up. We had 14cm of snow here and despite a maximum of 0.3C in the afternoon after the snow stopped falling properly about midday, I was surprised to find it getting slushy at the base by teatime - even in the shade.

I have observed that snow tends to persist on the ground, provided it falls in a decent quantity, if it is followed by clearing skies overnight and a decent freeze - this didn't happen in February as it stayed largely cloudly overnight and didn't fall a great deal below freezing. Contrast that to Christmas week 2000 when less snow fell, about 9 cm (I think on the 27th?) and it didn't thaw at all until New Year's Day. After the snow fell the weather became settled and the lying snow was dry with hard overnight frosts.

The snow that fell in January and more notably February here started to fall overnight, around Midnight when conditions were absolutely perfect. Dew points were very low and you couldn't describe the situations as marginal for settling at all. In fact every flake settled - but it shouldn't melt so quickly when the daytime temperature is barely above freezing and its cloudy!

Edited September 29, 2007 by mackerel sky

[SnowJoke]

If i remember correctly we all had this discussion about how quickly last years laying snowfall seemed to melt. Some of the more weather minded members identified the cause to be the very wet / stroke warm underlying soil temperatures which led to the thaw starting from ground level and not the top layers like snow normally melts in any sunshine. This year may bode well for any snowfall events lasting a while longer as the coming winter is likely to produce below average rainfall, meaning the ground should finally start to dry out and any cold frosty weather will be able to lower the soil temperatures enough to stop the thawing which occured last year.

[Snowyowl9]

Optimistically speaking, even the mild winters had some snowy spells, so even if it turns out how the met-office suggest it will be I would be very surprised if there wasnt any snow, so its not all a loss really.

Exactly I was thinking about this today and even though last winter was the 2nd mildest there was snow about and a surprising amount come in February with driting and most snow for 20 years.

And there was a cold snap in January http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/20...00220070123.gif to break those nasty storms up with a little snow and quite abit more snow again later in March here.

last winter faired very well indeed here under the circumstances it may not of lasted that long but it was exceptionally mild overall and much better than 1987/1988 winter which was a similar year!!!

[mackerel sky]

You only have to looked at the mapped averages for 1971-2000

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/ave...12000/dl/17.gif

to realise we've been missing in the period since 2000. There are lots of things I comment about from experience which hold true to that map, but it would be rather tiresome.

Oh go on then. This is one example - I drove home from a conference at Bedfont Lakes near Heathrow about 6 or 7 years ago and it was snowing but not settling. It was settling in Luton, but not in Bedford. But it was settling at home here in Northamptonshire. The isolated white gap other than the fens is where Bedford is. I lived there for a couple of years pre 2000 and snow doesn't really settle in Bedford. The map makes some sense.

[JOHN.MAC]

some long range forcasts are pointing to a possibility of the first snow by mid november, if only!!!

[Don]

You only have to looked at the mapped averages for 1971-2000

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/ave...12000/dl/17.gif

to realise we've been missing in the period since 2000. There are lots of things I comment about from experience which hold true to that map, but it would be rather tiresome.

Oh go on then. This is one example - I drove home from a conference at Bedfont Lakes near Heathrow about 6 or 7 years ago and it was snowing but not settling. It was settling in Luton, but not in Bedford. But it was settling at home here in Northamptonshire. The isolated white gap other than the fens is where Bedford is. I lived there for a couple of years pre 2000 and snow doesn't really settle in Bedford. The map makes some sense.

I wonder what average that map would show from 2000 to now?!

[Osbourne One-Nil]

That map warms the cockles of my heart.

[Stratos Ferric]

That is absolutely true about the snow not lasting now. During the Winters of the mid 80's (which I'm lucky enough to remember), lying snow would stay on the ground for 1 to 2 weeks before thawing. Now, like in February this year the snow barely lasted on the ground for 1 to 2 days! I think this is partly due to the distinct lack of Autumnal and Winter frosts meaning ground temperatures are high, plus the heat lag around from the general warming trend. A similar thing happened during the cold spell in February 2005. We had two weeks of generally cold weather and frequent snow falls, but the snow never accumalated to much, because it thawed so rapidly after each fall.

I do think we tend to remember through slightly snow tinted goggles Don. For sure there were occasions when snow lasted for several days, but snow lasting more than a week was a rarity even in the halycon days of the 60s-80s. What is noticeable nowadays is that unbroken snow cover seldom persists for more than a day.

I'm not sure ground temperatures are anything much to do with it really. Ground is a poor insulator, so in the right conditions cools quickly. Temperatures a week or so previously are an irrelevance; if this weren't the case then it would be impossible to get a ground frost. The real problem nowadays is simply that snow seldom falls in the quantities that it used, and a majority of what we got is short-lived leading edge warm frontal, meaning that rain soon follows - rain being the biggest spoiler of snow, perhaps after a strong warm wind (we had this on more than one occasion in the last two years and the rate at which it induced thaw and evaporation was astonishing). The snow that used to persist tended to be cold frontal, something we very rarely seem to get nowadays.

I wonder what average that map would show from 2000 to now?!

Good question: an awful lot more white and light blue, certainly south of the uplands of Scotland.

[Thundery wintry showers]

I have observed that snow tends to persist on the ground, provided it falls in a decent quantity, if it is followed by clearing skies overnight and a decent freeze -

So have I, for example there was a heavy snowfall at the Tyne & Wear coast on 2nd March 2001 (8cm level snow), and this was followed by an exceptionally cold night (down to -10C, the lowest I've ever recorded), the snow then stuck around for two days in sunshine and temperatures of 3-4C and only slight thawing. My guess is that the snow solidifies as the temperature drops well below freezing.

There's also much truth in Stratos Ferric's post. In winter 2006/07 the overnight snow accumulations on 22/23 January, 6/7 February and 19/20 March in Cleadon were followed by daytime maxima between 3 and 5C, so the daytime temperature was partly responsible for the snow cover diminishing to well under half-cover by 3pm. However, the snow never settled to a depth greater than 3cm- and if we'd had over 5cm, chances are much of it would have lasted the day in all three cases.

In late February 2005- the classic freeze-thaw situation- the relative lack of importance of soil temperatures was illustrated by the fact that much of County Durham had a prolonged spell of snow cover. The reason was that temperatures were slightly less marginal there, and snow consequently settled to a considerable depth.

[snowingman]

last winter was weird..

we had snow in mid Nov then no more until end of March - crazy stuff

this year- we'll be lucky to see a snowfall at all...lets hope not

[roberthines]

I would say first snow in uk be some parts of scotland late october 2007.

Northeast england early november

Most of the uk during late december

[Bobby]

I think it'll be December before inland low lying areas of the UK get any snow, just a guess.

November 2005 though we had 4 inches and it stayed on the ground for over a week. That's only just over a month away. Let's hope for a repeat.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Magpie

[JOHN.MAC]

I think it'll be December before inland low lying areas of the UK get any snow, just a guess.

November 2005 though we had 4 inches and it stayed on the ground for over a week. That's only just over a month away. Let's hope for a repeat.

hope your right mate mind you i remember a couple of years ago we had a snow in novemeber even this far south

[stormforce 10]

hope your right mate mind you i remember a couple of years ago we had a snow in novemeber even this far south

we had snow last november from a northerly.

[JOHN.MAC]

we had snow last november from a northerly.

what area are you in

november can be a funny month and can throw up all sorts of weather

[stormforce 10]

what area are you in

november can be a funny month and can throw up all sorts of weather

you see in my avatar top left co roscommon ireland.

cant remember what date but we had snow showers heavy ones too all day but didnt stick but was impressive to see it so early.

reagards.

[JOHN.MAC]

cheers mate well im sure we're looking forward to an early snow event this winter.

[stormforce 10]

cheers mate well im sure we're looking forward to an early snow event this winter.

hopefully, xmas would be perfect