Have we actually Forgotten what cold is

[lightnin]

sorry its off topic but there is a massive band of snow heading over the pennines to eastern england according to the radar and its fairly heavy.

and heres some pictures of the blizzards in Scotland and cumbria yesterday theres 60 pictures here and the snow was up too 7 inches in parts.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1600...17933&saved

Edited January 5, 2008 by lightnin

[Schnee]

You know, if we got a proper easterly or snowfall they'd still blame it on Global Warming

[Upgrade]

i also remember ice inside the windows of my parents centrally heated house in the late 70s and early to mid 80's. i just thought it was normal in winter to have these massive icicles everywhere and play in the snow daily in the field next to the house, sometimes for a couple of weeks at a time. and in the pennnines drifts would be on the hills, under wall sides facing north, long streaks of deep white, and in protected gullies, for much of the winter, even lasting through the milder spells then getting replenished, then melting in April. it was a certain kind of fun playing in the drifts at the edges long after the rest of the field were green and the grass growing, i always thought.

in fact my grandmother used to say " we need another lot of snow to get take this lot away" . it hardly sticks around long enough now to use the phrase, snow just does not endure on the ground for any period , even in most of the pennines under 500m , like it used to .

i think we got more hill snow and i think some of these snow events came from the west or north west. i went to school in Bradford, a few miles from where i grew up , and frequently would go to school in wellies , saying there was loads of snow where i lived, and all the city dwellers didnt believe me and laughed. elevation seemed more important around then - now the snow line in winter has perhaps risen a couple of hundred metres in recent winters, the hills dont get the snow they used to - its even more noticeble than in the lowland areas.

the last time i remember hill snow lasting late in yorkshire was in 95-96, when i saw snowdrifts in May up at the top of the Pennines, which had lasted weeks. think its not happened since.

now i live in London of course we hardly ever get any snow at all. my perception of what a winter is has changed and i expect the geraniums to flower all winter, in sheltered spots - they have done in the most recent years (may be touch and go this year!).

if i want cold weather and snow now i just get on a plane for an hour and go to the alps.

[Louby]

massive icicles

god I have forgotten what they look like!!!

[Hairy Celt]

It's only 12 years since we had ice on the inside of our double-glazed windows here, when the beer froze in the tinnies before you could drink it. And just before Xmas (last year) there were massive ice bulges on the road cuttings near here. But on the whole, I'd agree with the general sentiment that we're being conditioned into a nation of softies. So few people work outside these days (or queue for buses) that they don't know what it's like to be freezing cold or soaking wet. Which may well be why the climate-change deniers can get away with such blatant lies...

[Mark Bayley]

I have only been around in the 90's winters so i have never experianced some of the past winters. I wish i had though

How bad actualy where they?

[Snowly does it]

How bad actualy where they?

December 1981 and January 1987 were brutal - cold on a level we have not seen since.

February 1991 was exciting and snowy

Feb 86 was dry and bitterly cold.

Any of those would dwarf anything since - even 95/96

But before that and in the time of one or two members here are 1947 and 1963, different planet those two!

[swfc]

I have only been around in the 90's winters so i have never experianced some of the past winters. I wish i had though

How bad actualy where they?

78-79 were very severe in there cold ,snow and how long they lasted.80-81 were bad and 87 was severe but not a long spell altho day time records were broke and snow depths were good.For me 78-79 were the best.

[West is Best]

Thursday is the coldest day I can ever remember in Devon. Period.

It is quite amazing how people's memories play tricks, especially old ladies I notice. I was behind one in a queue and she was saying how Christmas came suddenly upon her because the autumn had been so mild. Actually it wasn't. That's just a few weeks. Imagine therefore how much fun there is to be had when you get the odd person on here going on about pools panels and deep snowdrifts. Yes I remember them. But that's because they were remarkable. There were also many many mild zonal days in winters past that we forget because they were mundane. Indeed the first half of the 1970's was dreadful for winter cold.

Edited January 5, 2008 by La Nina

[Hairy Celt]

and then there were the cardboard boxes on the M1...

[Cymru]

Wow, this thread takes me back! I remember the days when we didn't have central heating in the 60s and how the windows would ice up in winter. I recall trecking over the fields as a kid in deep snow drifts over the top of my wellies, how the snow seemed to last for days on end and roads would be blocked. Imagine that nowdays! Life went on then but today things would grind to a complete standstill as we're just not used to such conditions.

[Snowyowl9]

Speaking of temps here is my interpretation of max temps during winter.

6-8C Average, 5-3C cool, 2-0C cold, -1 - 3C very cold, -4 - -7 bitterly cold, -8 -11 extreme cold.

Thats sounds about right except if it was 3-5c with wind it would make it cold and 10-13c is very mild although to see 6 to 7c shown on the bbc forecast say in march in a fresh NW-ly is cold and cold enough for snow showers here.

Today was 6.6c here so just I put it as above average by 1c even though it felt rather fresh.

A max of 0.0c to -3c with no or just thawing very slight but briefly still as icicles form is what I aim for.

But even in the bitterly cold february 1986 with a cet of -1.1c there were days when at a certain time of day around mid-late morning it starting thawing slightly on the less cold days during that month in the shade and it was cloudy can`t say what the maxes was then.

There were sunny days that month also when snow had thawed 2 or 3 some of the steepest fields facing the sun and there were many icicles on the roof that month amazing.

As for a maxes of -8c to -11c that was exceptional like in december 81 or Jan 82 and Jan 87 when snow/frost wouldn`t even thaw in the sun now thats exceptional.

Another thing it depends which direction the wind is coming from on how cold we aim for like we`ve had mild NW-lys coming round the top of a HP.

Another thing I remember is we had a bitterly cold easterly one year then the wind changed during the cold spell to a cold north or NW but it was`nt quite the same as an east wind with slightly more thawing and it didn`t feel as cold, that may of been feb 1991 I`m thinking of.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Snowyowl9

[The PIT]

Thursday is the coldest day I can ever remember in Devon. Period.

Memories playing tricks. Over to Mr data he'll find a lot more colder ones.

Yes you're right people do have short memories. However it's a long time since we've had a cold December and a long time since we had a really cold Jan.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Britain is poor at dealing with snow simply because it's so rare- our culture may be partly responsible, but fact is, countries where snow is rare generally cope far less well than countries that are used to it. For example, even in Britain, preparedness in Scotland is generally better than in southern England.

For Tyne & Wear, other than the notorious 40cm February 1991 snowstorm which represents my first memory of snow, I think the biggest throwback to the earlier winters was the 1993/94 season. There was a notable severe spell in late November with a week of snow cover and -12C at Durham on the 24th, another notable wintry spell 25-28 December, and then a very cold second half of February. Cold continental air took up residence over north-eastern Britain from 13 to 26 February and brought heavy snowfalls at times.

For most other regions the biggest throwback occurred in 1995/96 which was a particularly snowy winter in north-west Lancashire by their standards; 13cm level snow, 2m drifts, and a max of just -1.2C at Lancaster on the 6th February. Also an exceptional severe spell in the north in late December with a snowbound Christmas Day and minima of -20C in Glasgow shortly afterwards, and -27.2C in the Highlands.

The only other winter with severe low temperatures was 2000/01, with a notable severe spell in late December 2000 especially for Ireland, and a severe start to March 2001 in central Scotland and the northeast with -11C at Durham early on the 3rd.

I can assure you that Devon has had far, far colder days than 3 January 2008, as happened in Januarys 1979, 1982, 1985 and 1987 just to quote four instances. Even in the 1971-76 winters, the easterly spell of late January 1972, and the NW'ly spell of mid-February 1973, produced noteworthy low temperatures; January 1972 was like an expanded version of the December 2005 easterly.

[Stratos Ferric]

December 1981 and January 1987 were brutal - cold on a level we have not seen since.

February 1991 was exciting and snowy

Feb 86 was dry and bitterly cold.

Any of those would dwarf anything since - even 95/96

But before that and in the time of one or two members here are 1947 and 1963, different planet those two!

Though I would put December 1981, record breakingly cold with heavy snow presaging it - and of longer duration that the intense but short-lived cold of 1987, and the winter of 78-9 ahead of any of the above. Locally we had snow on the ground continuously from December 28th to late Feb, then again for about two weeks in March. We also had four severe snowstorms, and only one night without frost from December 28th to Feb 27th. There was more snow in that one winter - when I lived around 400' lower and in the urban fringes - than there has been in the nine winters I've been living in Stratosshire.

Thursday is the coldest day I can ever remember in Devon. Period.

It is quite amazing how people's memories play tricks, especially old ladies I notice. I was behind one in a queue and she was saying how Christmas came suddenly upon her because the autumn had been so mild. Actually it wasn't. That's just a few weeks. Imagine therefore how much fun there is to be had when you get the odd person on here going on about pools panels and deep snowdrifts. Yes I remember them. But that's because they were remarkable. There were also many many mild zonal days in winters past that we forget because they were mundane. Indeed the first half of the 1970's was dreadful for winter cold.

WiB, there's always been mild days, for sure. The funny thing is there used to be a lot more cold ones as well, and the cold ones we had were a lot colder, and often in longer sequences. I think you're choosing to be contrary, particularly as there are a lot of us on here who must otherwise be sharing the same fantasy.

...

i think we got more hill snow and i think some of these snow events came from the west or north west. i went to school in Bradford, a few miles from where i grew up , and frequently would go to school in wellies , saying there was loads of snow where i lived, and all the city dwellers didnt believe me and laughed. elevation seemed more important around then - now the snow line in winter has perhaps risen a couple of hundred metres in recent winters, the hills dont get the snow they used to - its even more noticeble than in the lowland areas.

the last time i remember hill snow lasting late in yorkshire was in 95-96, when i saw snowdrifts in May up at the top of the Pennines, which had lasted weeks. think its not happened since.

...

Quite agree, though it's not that elevation was more important, so much as that it made more difference, particularly - though not exclusively - after mid March. The period from mid March to mid April would often bring snow to the hills above 1000' - so places like Queensbury could often be seen perched on a sugar topped ridge; nowadays even the highest fells in the Dales hardly ever get spring snow - certainly so that it settles.

[Bottesford]

You can't look down on people saying ''it's ruddy freezing today'' whilst the thermometer says 5c. Certainly it's not cold by continental standards or by winters past but it still feels cold as it's all relative.

It's the same reason that 15c in early spring feels very warm compared to 15c in early autumn - it's what you get used to. It's like today - it felt positively balmy compared to this week - especially Thursday which easily felt the coldest this year/winter due to the freezing wind. Had it been October and it'd gone from 15c to todays 7c it'd feel freezing instead.

On the nostalgia front - I remember as a kid heading down the local nature reserve that has large lakes in it. I remember sometime in the mid to late 80s going down there skimming stones across the entirely frozen water. I've not seen it freeze like that since. The pond in my (well my parents') back garden used to freeze solid enough for you to walk on it - great fun until it started to crack - I jumped off quick and in went my brother.... No doubt - it doesn't get as cold anymore. Still at least it gets hot in summer more often now! I'll get my coat....

[TEITS]

How bad actualy where they?

A simple way of describing them was brutal.

Let me give you a brief example of some of those winters from what I can remember.

The 78/79 blizzards really were severe and to highlight just how bad they were I was only 8 at the time and yet I can remember the snowfalls vivdly and yet I can't even remember the cold winter of 95/96 which speaks volumes IMO. One memory that sticks out is walking to school in the deep snowfall but finding out the school was closed because we couldn't get into the school because the snow drifts were blocking the doors!

The 1981 winter also sticks in my mind because at that time my family didn't have central heating and I remember going to bed wearing my coat with a hot water bottle. I also remember myself and my brothers building an igloo and because the snow was so deep and compacted using a spade we cut out cubes of snow and made an igloo which must of been around 5ft high!.

When it comes to the winters of the early-mid 80's I remember harsh cold spells but I can't place any particular event to a specific year. I do remember one occasion where I woke up at 6am and decided to look outside to see if any snow had fallen but unfortunately everywhere remained green outside so I decided to return to bed. However when I woke up at 8am there must of been around 20cm of snow which utterly amazed me and the sun was shining. Around 30mins later I knew exactly why so much snow had fallen because the sky turned black from the E and we had another 2hr prolonged heavy snow shower and these continued for the rest of the day. I actually mentioned this to my mother the other day and thankfully she still has her diaries from the 80's so im determined to find out the exact date of this event because the amount of snowfall in such a short space of time was incredible.

The 1987 event was special also for Peterborough. During the peak of this cold spell max temps never rose above -7C and heavy snow continued non stop for +72hrs!

I know sometimes I make myself look very foolish on here going on about E,lys and even though I take my forecasting seriously I have made myself a laughing stock and lost any credibility I may of had. However living in Peterborough all my life I have seen what an E,ly can bring to my location and even as a child I quickly learn't that snowfall always seemed to come from the same direction and it was actually looking at the direction that the clouds were moving as a guide if snow was on its way.

[rossco89]

we dont get that much snow here in Scotland either, you`re lucky if you get 1 day with snow now. We are more used to it though and we expect snow in winter so preperations are already made before winter gets going, so that if snow is on the way everything is ready to go out instead of waiting to the last kick.

[Noctilucid]

Well I always beleive that the climate runs in a cycle, it may be warming now, but one day the climate wil balance itself out and head the other way.

Perhaps in a few hundred years time people will be enduring 10 inches of snow once more!

What goes around comes around

[Snowly does it]

Though I would put December 1981, record breakingly cold with heavy snow presaging it - and of longer duration that the intense but short-lived cold of 1987, and the winter of 78-9 ahead of any of the above. Locally we had snow on the ground continuously from December 28th to late Feb, then again for about two weeks in March. We also had four severe snowstorms, and only one night without frost from December 28th to Feb 27th. There was more snow in that one winter - when I lived around 400' lower and in the urban fringes - than there has been in the nine winters I've been living in Stratosshire.

Well I have no memory of the earlier events so have always assumed them as more severe but yes, 78-79 whilst a little dimmer in my memory as I was a little bit uuuuh littler then was a very severe winter both meteorologically and politically.

I put 87 at the top of the list myself - whilst not prolonged it was the most intense cold that is clearest in my memory and for absolute clarity the Easterly of Feb 91 which I posted about in Historic Weather just for the inanity of my trip to London that day.

[Nick H]

You've got to love this, haven't you???

Thursday is the coldest day I can ever remember in Devon. Period.

And then, in the very next sentence,

It is quite amazing how people's memories play tricks

[Nick F]

Well I have no memory of the earlier events so have always assumed them as more severe but yes, 78-79 whilst a little dimmer in my memory as I was a little bit uuuuh littler then was a very severe winter both meteorologically and politically.

I put 87 at the top of the list myself - whilst not prolonged it was the most intense cold that is clearest in my memory and for absolute clarity the Easterly of Feb 91 which I posted about in Historic Weather just for the inanity of my trip to London that day.

Although my memory of winters past only stretches back to the begining of the 80s, i too would put the Jan '87 spell at the top for coldness, in Kent anyway, although it was relatively short-lived by past standards (not todays) it was brutaly cold for lowland UK at its height, taken from Robin Stirling’s excellent The Weather of Britain - noon readings at Gatwick from the 7th to the 20th Jan 1987 in degrees C were: 0, -2, 1, -1, -5, -7, -7, -3, -2, -1, -3, -3, -3, -1.

I remember even with double glazing with the central heating on and a log fire feeling the cold from outside radiating from the windows inside. Don't think lowland Sern UK has seen daytime temperatures to match since.

Which makes it all the more irritating when the BBC weather presenters use little context when telling us how cold it will be, Wednesday last week Jay Wynne told us that it would be 'very cold' on Thursday, 2-3C maxes very cold, cold maybe but not very. The we have the general publics' view of what's cold and what's not, short-term memories have led many talk of cold snaps like Thursday's a big freeze, driven partly by the medias' misuse of the phrase, when clearly it is more like the small chill.

[ukmoose]

We have to remember that many weather presenters and journalists are too young to know anything else. 7 degrees with a wind IS cold to them. They are the generation that has grown up with overly warm houses and may not know what a cold spell feels like. Add in the current trend for using hyperbole in day to day speech and 7 degrees on a windy day becomes 'absolutely freezing out there'.

As a cold lover who recognises that winters no longer hold the same capability they did to deliver sustained cold, I will try to be objective about perceptions.

As usual with debates like this, there are several factors involved. It's true that we no longer have ice on the inside of our (often metal framed) windows and icicles don't hang from gutters and eaves much. Houses are better insulated now and the use of different building materials with better insulating properties and materials and effective double glazing would reduce ice and icicles in and on houses even if the temperature dropped and the snow fell.

Those of us who grew up in the sixties can remember lots of snowy periods - but winters weren't like that every year and no one is saying that the snow lasted from December to March. In a temperate climate like ours, mild days are often going to be frequent and the same was true back in the sixties.

However, several things have changed. Cold spells nowadays are on average very much shorter than they used to be, sometimes lasting only a day or possibly two at best whereas a week or even two weeks was not unusual then. Depth of snowfall has also changed. Six inches was not unusual from time to time, 12 inches not unheard of at low levels, not just hills and drifts several feet deep took some clearing with a spade. Night time minima have also risen quite considerably. I can't imagine ever reaching the minus 19 and 20 Celsius that we had on several occasions in December 1981 and January 1982 for instance in Midlands where I lived then. Minus 10 and minus 12 was a common low figure to reach - unheard of now. Day time maxima on occasions only made minus 4 or 5 Celsius - also unheard of now. Large rivers like the Severn at Worcester frozen in places and large lakes that were frozen solid for days on end.

I reiterate that winters were not like this all the time and I know that I am picking out the coldest examples and even then they were punctuated by mild spells (I remember February 1982 being a huge disappointment after what had preceded it). My point is that the difference between the coldest winter spells in my life time ( I haven't included '63 here) are worlds away from winters today.

I haven't quite forgotten what winters were like, but it is quite hard to recall them sometimes when today's cold snap consists of a couple of inches of snow that falls overnight and is usually gone by the next morning or afternoon. But 7 degrees absolutely freezing? I don't think so.

Moose

[Jonnie G]

Although my memory of winters past only stretches back to the begining of the 80s, i too would put the Jan '87 spell at the top for coldness, in Kent anyway, although it was relatively short-lived by past standards (not todays) it was brutaly cold for lowland UK at its height, taken from Robin Stirling’s excellent The Weather of Britain - noon readings at Gatwick from the 7th to the 20th Jan 1987 in degrees C were: 0, -2, 1, -1, -5, -7, -7, -3, -2, -1, -3, -3, -3, -1.

I remember even with double glazing with the central heating on and a log fire feeling the cold from outside radiating from the windows inside. Don't think lowland Sern UK has seen daytime temperatures to match since.

Which makes it all the more irritating when the BBC weather presenters use little context when telling us how cold it will be, Wednesday last week Jay Wynne told us that it would be 'very cold' on Thursday, 2-3C maxes very cold, cold maybe but not very. The we have the general publics' view of what's cold and what's not, short-term memories have led many talk of cold snaps like Thursday's a big freeze, driven partly by the medias' misuse of the phrase, when clearly it is more like the small chill.

Well for me, my real intrest in wintry weather stems from the winter of 78-79, when I turned 11 yrs old. As far as snow goes, then there is before 15th of february 1979 and after that date, because the blizzard on that day in the north-east midlands was extraordinary - there had been a lot of snow up to that point in the winter, with the new years blizzard giving quite a thick cover and many more falls of a few inches in January and February, with sledging and snow fun routine, but looking out of my bedroom window on the morning of the 15th February I saw a completely modified landscape, with elaborate snow formations on the same scale as the fences and window levels.....there was even a small snow drift in the living room!

As far as cold goes, then I too remember the degree of cold could be judged by how far up the inside of the window the ice had got overnight, and I remember one day in January 1982 the whole inside was covered in the frosted pattern, and I checked the max-min thermometer in the garden and found it had fallen to -17C. I also recorded -17C during the 1987 spell, although we had double glazing by then, but there's no dought that some of the spells in 78-87 period were remarkable.

Another memorable thing from cold spells of the past is the way the milk would freeze on the doorstep pushing the bottle tops off!

Edited January 6, 2008 by Jonnie G

[doublebarrel]

Talking about memories and cold, i remember in `81 i was a fireman (pc nowadays ) firefighter, and went to a car fire at a place in south derbyshire called spring cottage ! it was that cold the water from the hose reel dripped down your hand holding it and froze on your gloves ! we then had to go back to station a different way and dig out the first pump that had got stuck in snow drifts down a lane !!