Snow Patches Surviving on Scottish Mountains

[xxx]

when does the first snow of the season normally arive?

[firefly]

Snow in September on the higher mountains (3700 foot+) is not unusual in Scotland. We had quite a bit of snow this time last year (enough for a few turns by one hardy skier of my acquaintance) on the Cairngorms, and as far south as Glencoe. The question is when does the lasting snow arrive: that's generally later. Late October is realistic, but last year it was early November in the Cairngorms and a couple of weeks later at Nevis.

[Terminal Moraine]

It looks as if the higher Scottish mountains will have their first snowfalls of the season during the coming week, even if only temporarily. Perhaps there will be just enough to enable the last drifts hanging on to survive into the coming winter.

[firefly]

Well, there's a day on the hill I'll not forget in a long time. My first visit to Garbh Choire Mhor and I had to pick the day of terrible weather!

Thanks, again, go to coaster (from www.winterhighland.info), who was my companion on this trip. His enthusiasm for snow-patches makes me feel less of an anorak than I gave myself credit for.

The day started well at Auchlean in Glen Feshie, where we decided that we would leave from. The weather was overcast but fair, and we were optimistic we wouldn't see much rain. Indeed, for a while the optimism was well founded. The path was excellent and the cloud was lifting. In an hour-and-a-quarter we were past 3000ft and heading for the shoulder of Carn Mor Ban at NN892 968. After that, instead of sticking to the path (and take a slightly longer route), we decided to strike across the lunar landscape which sits above Coire Odhar at the head of Glen Einich and head straight for Carn na Criche on Braeriach.

So far, so good. Got to around 3400ft and into the mist. Managed to pick our way (thanks to Garmin GPS) to the edge of Garbh Choire Mor and tried to peak over into it. Nothing visible! Hardly surprising: the mist was thick and the wind was blowing steadily at around 25-30mph. Couple this with an air temperature on the plateau of 5.6 celcius and it made for very unpleasant walking.

A search for an easy descent into GCM was on. Initially we walked towards Sgor an Lochain Uaine, but doubled back after 10-minutes when we realised we were going nowhere, fast. There was nothing else for it but to go round past the Wells of Dee and descend into Garbh Choire Dhaidh and round to GCM.

All the while whilst skirting round the edge towards our drop-in point I was peering optimistically into the abyss(!), hoping to see a gently sloping descent, wishing to cut-out the long and arduous walk round. coaster's vertigo is even worse than mine , so there was little chance of us taking any direct route.

We eventually descended into the corrie and made for GCM. The boulder fields made the progress very slow, but we eventually got to our destination and were rewarded with 4-patches of snow.

So, here's the nitty-gritty:

1) Sphinx - 12m long x 22m wide x 4.5m deep.

2) Pinnacles - 20m long x 41m wide x 3m deep.

3) (Not sure of the name, possibly Michaelmas Fayre?: sits south of Sphinx) - 7m long x 10m wide x 2m deep

4) (Not sure of name: sits north of Pinnacles) - 6m long x 1m wide x 1m deep. Not much life left in this one, I fancy.

Not many photographs today I'm afraid (camera was soaked), but they can be found here : http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57607538603856/

Sphinx and Pinnacles were absolutely rock-hard. Temperature at the patches was around 7 celcius with heavy rain. I'm surprised these patches didn't show many signs of melting. Possibly the recent cold weather has consolidated them.

As it stands, three of the four have a very decent prospect of survival if a cold snap were to appear in October and give a good covering.

After we did the business and had some lunch it was time to get back. Luckily, I persuaded coaster to scramble up a grassy slope in GCM and onto the summit plateau. Once there we got lost a couple of times, but made it down from the hill in time to see the sun come out. Still, was a nice run home.

Thanks again to coaster for coming along. Not a place to go on your own in foul weather.

[multi cellular thunderstorm]

Thanks for the update, surely that snow in the photos will survive into Winter.

Hoping for early snow up there this year, i'll be around the area 11th - 18th of October and i'd be very happy even to see a slight dusting

[Cookie]

thanks for the updates firefly and you're last post was a really good read

[kippure]

Looks like the highlands will be getting there first snow at the end of the week.

[multi cellular thunderstorm]

Looks like the highlands will be getting there first snow at the end of the week.

Yes a nice forecast from the Met Office:

Outlook for Thursday

Brief sunny intervals and passing blustery showers, some will be heavy. Best of the sun over the Southern Highlands around Ben Vorlich and Ben Lawers. However over the Cairngorms and Lochnagar showers will be frequent. Turning much colder with showers falling as snow over the Munros. North to Northwest winds 30mph to 40mph. High wind chill. Freezing level lowering from 1400 metres to around 1100 metres.

Outlook for Friday

Wintry showers continuing, falling as snow on even modest hills, frequent in the North. By afternoon showers mainly affecting the Cairngorms and Northern ranges with the South quite sunny. Clearing skies developing later. Northerly gales easing. High wind chill easing by evening. Freezing level around 1000 metres.

Outlook for Saturday

A frosty start with quite sunny conditions and dustings of snow covering many summits, especially the more Northern peaks. Later in the day cloud will thicken and outbreaks of rain and sleet will spread east, giving a spell of snow over higher summits later. Hill fog forming later. Light winds at first, settling strong Southwesterly later.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/loutdoor/mount...sthighland.html

Snow also mentioned on the MWIS forecast:

http://www.mwis.org.uk/forecast.php?area=3

Wish I was there this week, probably mild and wet by the time i'm up there B)

[Ross B]

I think i will be into the mountains for the first time this winter on Saturday... i might try and get up on friday but i'm not sure if that will be possible yet. Either way i will keep everyone updated if i find snow!

[firefly]

Yes, quite a bit of snow forecast for the next few days - particularly on the higher tops. Couple that with strong winds and we're looking at some substantial drifting, particularly at the snow-patch sites: invaluable for prolonging the existing snow.

Below is a picture from the last remaining snow-patch in the Cairngorms outside Garbh Choire Mhor, which is the remnants of the huge patch that was posted earlier in this thread: Garbh Uisge Beag.

Edited October 1, 2008 by firefly

[snowhope]

sorry bit of a hijack here - firefly, i keep wetting my self laughing at your avatar pic. what video is it from?

http://www.coolavatars.net/avatars/47/cool_dudes.gif

[multi cellular thunderstorm]

I'm keeping an eye on the Cairngorm Webcam at 1100m but no snow yet. With any luck snow could start to settle up there today, if not tomorrow.

http://www.cairngormmountain.co.uk/cams/image2.jpg

MWIS forecast sounds quite severe, updated at 15:00 today...

http://www.mwis.org.uk/mountain/EH.PDF

Look at the bottom though...

The forecast above errs deliberately toward the pessimistic.

Or for us, the optimistic!

I thought that was strange but it's probably for the best. Anyone going up there will get a shock, with such severe conditions at this time of year, so they need a strong warning.

Don't like this bit though...

Beyond, strong indications of a long run of southwesterly winds, bringing mild often wet weather to most mountain areas

I'm up that area from 11th October and I really don't want mild and wet!

[firefly]

Well, the first "proper" snows have arrived in Scotland.

These pictures were taken yesterday, and there looks to be quite a bit more this morning: http://www.highland-instinct.co.uk/webcams/index.php

[stewfox]

Well, the first "proper" snows have arrived in Scotland.

These pictures were taken yesterday, and there looks to be quite a bit more this morning: http://www.highland-instinct.co.uk/webcams/index.php

So how does it work ?

Lets assume this all melts and you go and look for the 'remaining snow patches' , I assume you discount any new ones (if there ) and you do this till we get permanent covering up there (late October, early /mid November). It must get more difficult ?

So by definition when does a 'snow patch' make it

[firefly]

<...>

So by definition when does a 'snow patch' make it

In all honesty there are two schools of thought. The first school of thought is that once the existing patches are exposed to new snowfall (in, say, September or October) then they have lasted till the ‘new’ snows. The problem with that theory is that what constitutes ‘new’ snow? When is the cut off between old and new? Since it is highly unusual to get snow in August on the mountains, it is generally inferred that anything earlier than August is ‘old’ and anything after is ‘new’. And if it does snow in August then is it new or old?!

The other school of thought is that snow really ought to last till the official start of winter (December 21st) in order for it to be classified as ‘lasting’. In reality, any snow lasting until until this time of the year will be exposed to fresh snowfall, and the chances of any substantial ‘new’ snowfall melting completely are very small. Remember, the areas that hold snow for long periods are ones that are likely to get maximum exposure to new snowfall, thereby ensuring that if any thaw does occur it must strip the new snow away before it reaches the old. If this does happen, the old snow will be very hard to melt for a number of reasons. Firstly, the old snow, though undoubtedly small, will be rock hard. Secondly, the daylight and daytime temperatures are unlikely to be sufficiently high to do any major damage to the old snow.

Whilst temperatures in the teens are now not uncommon in December, it would take something exceptional for old snow to melt where it has been exposed to substantial new season falls.

Secondly, we know pretty much where all the existing snow-patches in Scotland are by the time the new snows come, so any 'new' ones that form from the first snows are easily identifiable. Plus, the make-up of the new patches is completely different from the old ones.

My own view is that a patch must be covered by new snow and persist until the following year to be classified as having "lasted".

[Optimus Prime]

Any reason why not one survived in 1996. It was a pretty cold year so would had thought more snow would survive than ever.

[Hiya]

Any reason why not one survived in 1996. It was a pretty cold year so would had thought more snow would survive than ever.

The wrong type of rain.

[firefly]

Any reason why not one survived in 1996. It was a pretty cold year so would had thought more snow would survive than ever.

Whilst temperature obviously plays a part in survival of snow, it is not the only factor. I don't have the stats for 1996 in front of me, but it could be that less snow fell in the 1995/96 winter than average. It could also be that much rain fell, thereby decimating the remaining snow pack.

[Thundery wintry showers]

I recall that in the Weather article for 2001 (also a year with surprisingly low survival considering the snowy winter of 2000/01) the reason was a high incidence of snowfalls from easterly winds, causing build up of lying snow primarily on exposed west and south-facing slopes. The article mentioned that 1995/96 also had a lot of snowfalls mainly from easterly winds- and in addition every month bar February 1996 was very dry in northern Scotland.

My guess is that this will be the main reason.

[stewfox]

Whilst temperature obviously plays a part in survival of snow, it is not the only factor. I don't have the stats for 1996 in front of me, but it could be that less snow fell in the 1995/96 winter than average. It could also be that much rain fell, thereby decimating the remaining snow pack.

So how many left now ? Or do we still have some fresh snow up there to melt

Thanks for previous post

[firefly]

The new snows that fell a few days ago deposited a fair amount on the existing snows in the Cairngorms, we think. The west won't have faired as well, except possibly Aonach Mor (if they're still there).

I suspect that we still have 9 patches:

1) Garbh Uisge Beag - Cairngorms

2) Garbh Choire Mhor x 4 - Cairngorms

3) Ben Nevis Observatory Gully

4) Aonach Beag

5) Aonach Mor

Of these, one in Garbh Choire Mhor is on the 'Critically Endangered' list, as are/is the Aonach Mor one(s). I plan to visit Nevis Range on the weekend of the 18th October, so will report back on their condition.

I'm hopeful we'll have at least 5 survivals to report this year.

As a by-the-way, attached is an incredible photograph from the 2nd October 1976 at Garbh Choire Mhor.

The picture shows the Pinnacles and Sphinx patches, which were feared would disappear sometime in September due to the abnormaly hot summer. Remarkably, a huge blizzard came on the 9th September and persisted until the 11th, burying the existing snow under much fresh snow. The picture shows, almost a month after the new snows fell, the clear line between new and old: giving a very visible explanation as to why the snow survived that year.

[stewfox]

The new snows that fell a few days ago deposited a fair amount on the existing snows in the Cairngorms, we think. The west won't have faired as well, except possibly Aonach Mor (if they're still there).

I suspect that we still have 9 patches:

1) Garbh Uisge Beag - Cairngorms

2) Garbh Choire Mhor x 4 - Cairngorms

3) Ben Nevis Observatory Gully

4) Aonach Beag

5) Aonach Mor

Of these, one in Garbh Choire Mhor is on the 'Critically Endangered' list, as are/is the Aonach Mor one(s). I plan to visit Nevis Range on the weekend of the 18th October, so will report back on their condition.

I'm hopeful we'll have at least 5 survivals to report this year.

As a by-the-way, attached is an incredible photograph from the 2nd October 1976 at Garbh Choire Mhor.

The picture shows the Pinnacles and Sphinx patches, which were feared would disappear sometime in September due to the abnormaly hot summer. Remarkably, a huge blizzard came on the 9th September and persisted until the 11th, burying the existing snow under much fresh snow. The picture shows, almost a month after the new snows fell, the clear line between new and old: giving a very visible explanation as to why the snow survived that year.

So one school would suggest 9 survived (October new snows now) and the old school will go on to December 21st ?

What school was used re the previous patches count ?

[Zerouali lives]

Incredible event that blizzard of September 1976 on the Cairngorms.

Check the chart - this is death conditions in the hills!

[Norrance]

There was a bit of new snow on the tops in Highland Perthshire this morning so I imagine that there would have been some further North too.

Any updates on the old patches? Did last weeks new snow all melt in the Cairngorms or were the surviving patches given a boost? Was away on holiday so a bit out of touch.

[multi cellular thunderstorm]

There was a bit of new snow on the tops in Highland Perthshire this morning so I imagine that there would have been some further North too.

Any updates on the old patches? Did last weeks new snow all melt in the Cairngorms or were the surviving patches given a boost? Was away on holiday so a bit out of touch.

Im on holiday near aberfeldy and i saw a dusting on ben lawers yesterday. We went up to glencoe too and there was a dusting on a few hills up there. We did catch a glimpse of a mountain further north with a lot of snow on which could have been ben nevis but by the time we got there it was covered in cloud as usual. On monday we could see some snow patches looking north into the cairngorms from the linn of dee near braemar which looked fairly deep. Ill hopefully have a few pics posted this weekend.