Snow Patches Surviving on Scottish Mountains

[Norrance]

Thanks again for the info.

Interesting that the highest surviving patch is at 3800 feet.

Presumably this is because most lie at the bottom of gullies and cliffs?

[firefly]

Interesting that the highest surviving patch is at 3800 feet.

Presumably this is because most lie at the bottom of gullies and cliffs?

Yes, though remember that although the highest patch is at 3800ft, it's still 600ft below the summit of Ben Nevis, so it shares some characteristics of the others.

The one patch this is different is Garbh Uisge Beag because it doesn't enjoy high cliffs behind it.

[trickydicky]

To answer your last question: it's not really calculated like that. The only criterium is that snow survives: be it 1, 2 or 10-years old. It doesn't matter. In 1996, the snow at Garbh Choire Mhor was (I think) around 20-years old when it did go.

How long do they have to have stuck around to be classed as permanent or even a small ice cap?

I picked a book up somewhere about the Cairngorms, it was quite old (1960's i think) and it had a picture of Coire an Snaechda on Cairngorm and under it a caption said something like "a view of the britains only glacier in coire an snaechda". Is this true, was there once a small glacier there,

ps sorry for any dodgy spelling.

Edited November 11, 2008 by trickydicky

[JRMcLeod]

The general consensus is that (barring a thaw of biblical proportions) all "old" snow in the Cairngorms and Nevis area has a sufficient depth as to keep them safe for another year.

So... this year's survivals are (you're getting this information 6-months before the Royal Meteorological Society are getting it!):

(Name, mountain, grid reference and approximate height above sea-level)

1. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Sphinx" patch) NN940980 - ~3700ft

2. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Pinnacles" patch) N of NN940980 - ~3700ft

3. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Michaelmas Fare" patch) N of NN940979 - ~3680ft

4. Garbh Uisge Beag, Ben Macdui, NH994010 - ~3550ft

5. Gardyloo Gully, Ben Nevis, S of NN166714, ~3800ft

6. Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis, NN166714, ~3700ft

7. Point 5 Gully, Ben Nevis, E of NN166714, ~3600ft

8. Protalus, Aonach Mor, NN193736, ~3675ft

9. Queen's View, Aonach Beag, NN196716, ~3115ft

Nothing really very spectacular this year. A couple of interesting points are that Garbh Uisge Beag made if for the first time in 5-years (only just, mind) and that Aonach Beag made it again. This surprises me given its altitude, which is lower than Scaffell in the Lake District. Quite probably, the snow you're looking at in this photograph fell in late 2006.

Gardyloo Gully made it, but this patch isn't widely recorded so it's difficult to tell whether it's a regular or not. I'll keep an eye on that one in the coming season.

So the snow patch that is attached in the photograph is coming up for 2 years old??? Thats really interesting that ithas survived so long

Edited November 11, 2008 by yeahbabyyeah

[firefly]

I picked a book up somewhere about the Cairngorms, it was quite old (1960's i think) and it had a picture of Coire an Snaechda on Cairngorm and under it a caption said something like "a view of the britains only glacier in coire an snaechda". Is this true, was there once a small glacier there,

There's no concrete evidence of any glaciers in the Cairngorms for thousands of years. During the mini ice age (a few hundred years ago) it was postulated that Garbh Choire Mhor may have supported a small glacier, but this has never been satisfactorily established. Certainly Coire an t-Sneachda did not have a glacier in the 1960s! That's utter nonsense.

So the snow patch that is attached in the photograph is coming up for 2 years old??? Thats really interesting that ithas survived so long

Yes, it's likely the snow is 2-years old. I'm guessing December 2006-January 2007 when it fell. Amazing, really, given its altitude.

[Zerouali lives]

We'll have to brace ourselves for the blow torch fohn tomorrow...

[Simonw]

To answer your last question: it's not really calculated like that. The only criterium is that snow survives: be it 1, 2 or 10-years old. It doesn't matter. In 1996, the snow at Garbh Choire Mhor was (I think) around 20-years old when it did go.

How long do they have to have stuck around to be classed as permanent or even a small ice cap?

I picked a book up somewhere about the Cairngorms, it was quite old (1960's i think) and it had a picture of Coire an Snaechda on Cairngorm and under it a caption said something like "a view of the britains only glacier in coire an snaechda". Is this true, was there once a small glacier there,

ps sorry for any dodgy spelling.

I think I know the book/pic you are referring to and the the pic is of Coire an Lochain. Very occasionally a spring avalanche on the Great slab in that coire produces what looks like a small glacier in the coire with a huge depth of snow and deep crevasses forming. Certainly it looks just like a glacier in the pic I saw!

Of course it is not a real glacier, for that form properly you need about a 150ft depth of neve to compress the snow into ice.

[firefly]

For those interested, I've written a Wiki entry on Scotland's snow-patches.

Be sure to stay tuned for 2009's thread!

Edited January 23, 2009 by firefly

[firefly]

All,

I'll be starting a new 2009 thread on here soon, in case anyone's interested! Keep watching...

[Terminal Moraine]

All,

I'll be starting a new 2009 thread on here soon, in case anyone's interested! Keep watching...

Yep, I'm definitely interested. Your reports in 2008 were as good as any I've seen in over 30 years of following Scottish snow survival.

[Yeti]

Fantastic! I've been looking forward to it! It doesn't seem like it's got off to a good start though... spring has been pretty mild.

I'll be off to the Lakes a lot this May/June on hill walks so I'll happily add the English patches in if there still are any by then? I was on Helvellyn the other day and there were a fair few decent-sized patches about.

[J07]

Yes, please continue. It is always an enjoyable read!

Even inspired me to hunt out some surviving snow patches this summer just gone!

[JRMcLeod]

Just thought i'd let you know that as it stands just now...there si still a lot of snow patches in the mountains, i know they will melt quite considerably but my view of the grampians this morning was quite impressive...

[firefly]

Yep, I'm definitely interested. Your reports in 2008 were as good as any I've seen in over 30 years of following Scottish snow survival.

Thanks, TM. Flattering! When you're passionate about something then it tends to come over well, particularly if you are OK with words, as I hope I am...

I'll be off to the Lakes a lot this May/June on hill walks so I'll happily add the English patches in if there still are any by then? I was on Helvellyn the other day and there were a fair few decent-sized patches about.

Thanks, but I doubt you'll find any in May, let alone June. Looks like the only remaining snow in England is on Cross Fell (Pennines, see below) and a few patches dotted around the Lakes. Helvellyn will be gone, I suspect, by the start of May. If anyone's interested, there's a thread on southern Scotland/northern England here: http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,105332

[osmposm]

Yep, I'm definitely interested. Your reports in 2008 were as good as any I've seen in over 30 years of following Scottish snow survival.

Indeed, they'll be eagerly awaited - both for the fascinating information and for the exemplary presentation.

[Thundery wintry showers]

I'm wondering how good winter 2008/09 was for long-standing snow patch retention? Apart from the cool zonal spell in mid to late January, which must have been pretty much ideal, I don't remember any significant spells which would have delivered big snowfalls to the Scottish Highlands in association with westerly winds. The snowfalls of early December and early February were associated with mostly northerly winds.

[Filski]

I meant to add to this thread a week ago...

Did a bit of a tour of Scotland and can confirm there is quite a lot of surviving snow in a large number of areas. Nevis was most plentiful of course but there was plentiful snow around Loch Tay, Torridon, Awe and so on. Got hailed/sleeted o at Loch Torridon at one point.

Loch Tay

Don't have any more online yet.

[johnholmes]

that is a lovely photo

[Yeti]

Firefly - snow on my trip to Helvellyn on Saturday:

[firefly]

Thanks, Yeti.

I suspect those patches will now either be gone or will not be here by Monday. I’ve got a couple of people keeping an eye on Cross Fell, which I suspect will be the last in England (unless anyone knows differently).

[Norrance]

Glad to see this back again this year.

I will certainly keep a look out in my regular trips up to Highland Perthshire and my slightly less frequent visits to the Cairngorms. Stll a lot of snow about last weekend on the higher hills but a much smaller area covered than the equivelant week last spring I would say. Don't know about the depths though?

[Higher Ground]

Thanks, Yeti.

I suspect those patches will now either be gone or will not be here by Monday. I've got a couple of people keeping an eye on Cross Fell, which I suspect will be the last in England (unless anyone knows differently).

If they lasted the weekend I doubt they melted much more today, as max temp on Great Dun Fell (840m) was just 3C - may even have been some snow falling up there right on the top?

[Cookie]

Im glad this is back

[multi cellular thunderstorm]

I meant to add to this thread a week ago...

Did a bit of a tour of Scotland and can confirm there is quite a lot of surviving snow in a large number of areas. Nevis was most plentiful of course but there was plentiful snow around Loch Tay, Torridon, Awe and so on. Got hailed/sleeted o at Loch Torridon at one point.

Loch Tay

Don't have any more online yet.

That is an excellent photo! One of my favourite places.

Good to see this thread back too.