What Should The Authorities Do ?

[stewfox]

This is a standard comment by Joe Public

I think we're all sick and tired of the southern bias. Moscow, Warsaw, Berlin, Chicago, New York have all coped with far, far worse snowfalls, yet we don't see 5 days of continous "Breaking News" mentioning that. Makes you wonder what the world really think about the UK. Nation of pansies, I suspect.

So what should the authorties do ?.

The fact is the recent snow event is rare , hasnt happen for at least 18 years and is News Worthy.

Some authorties are thinking of buying salt/grit from abroad now. Some suggest they will run out shortly. Many dont have enoughs staff/equipment to deal with it.

So what should we do spend a few billion to get the right equipment ? and let it rot for the next 17 years ?

The guy on the BBC today said if what is happening became a 2 yearly event they would have to look at it but what if it doesnt happen again till 2025 ?

Of course perhaps organisation could be better

BUT... we are not a Moscow or Chicago we dont get regular freezing weather and heavy snow falls and it will always catch us out or is that not a satisfactory answer. ?

Maylaysia has much larger drains then we do should we upgrade for one storm in 20 years

You need to look at the cost and the benifit

[ChartViewer]

This is a standard comment by Joe Public

So what should the authorties do ?.

Hi,

I work for Local government. The fact is Local Government will NOT do anything regarding this. Lets get real here. We have had 1 snow snap in 18 years which has caught Public Services out.

However unless the MO advise Local Authorities that this is going to become a yearly event then NO budget will be set aside to deal with it when recycling, crime, education are the massive priorities in the Public Sector and when Local Authorities are having to make budget cuts year on year to justify Politicians keeping the Council Tax at the same levels to get re elected.

Regards

[7andY]

There was an interesting point made on the TV about how stocks of salt/grit should be a strategic resource, rather than each Authority keeping its own. At least if one area isn't having snow, the supplies can be used where it's needed. Maybe the same could be done with equipment to deal with the snow like ploughs and diggers.

Could lead to a National Snow Task Force run by the Government - um, then again, perhaps not

7&Y

[Timmytour]

Hi,

I work for Local government. The fact is Local Government will NOT do anything regarding this. Lets get real here. We have had 1 snow snap in 18 years which has caught Public Services out.

However unless the MO advise Local Authorities that this is going to become a yearly event then NO budget will be set aside to deal with it when recycling, crime, education are the massive priorities in the Public Sector and when Local Authorities are having to make budget cuts year on year to justify Politicians keeping the Council Tax at the same levels to get re elected.

Regards

I think what's often overlooked about the other countries is the fact that they prepare for winter by putting winter tyres on. In fact in some countries, (I believe Norway is one), it's obligatory and the police can stop and fine you if you haven't got them on after a certain date.

Quite frankly, it would be ridiculous if we started to do the same in this country bearing how relatively infrequently we get this sort of weather. But it does help explain why some other countries appear to the handle the roads better... they don't have the same problems with cars, vans and lorries getting stuck and blocking the path of the gritters and snowploughs.

I think some of those people complaining the loudest would soon reduce their noise if they realised how much additional cost they would have to bear annually changing their tyres twice a year... not to mention the additional cost of repairing road surfaces damaged by the winter tyres....

[Mark Bayley]

There wouldn't be as many problems if they bothered to grit the roads properly, they seem to grit it the night before and leave it, then don't come back till hours after the snowfall when were all having trouble. I understand theres lots of roads to grit however its not just the small roads, its the main roads also that we have problems on! The same has been said up in Sheffield by the Pit ect.. The trains use any excuse going to be delayed so don't expect anything to cahnge from them, a mm of snow and its 10 hour delays

[osmposm]

There was an interesting point made on the TV about how stocks of salt/grit should be a strategic resource, rather than each Authority keeping its own. At least if one area isn't having snow, the supplies can be used where it's needed. Maybe the same could be done with equipment to deal with the snow like ploughs and diggers.

Thanks for starting this thread, Stew. I've been sticking odd comments in other threads for a while, but this was needed.

Yes, 7Y, an interesting possibility. I didn't see the programme, but was wondering the same thing myself. In fact, at the risk of repeating myself tediously, here is my (off-topic) post on the subject in the '...Tired of Snow' thread. This is a better place for it:

I agree that things could have been handled better, and some people - my postal delivery office, for example - could maybe have suspended their obsession with "health & safety at any cost" for the duration.

But it is pretty inevitable that a place that hasn't had any serious snow for nearly twenty years will struggle to cope - on both an individual and an institutional basis. Saying that Moscow, Warsaw, Chicago, New York, etc etc, cope with far worse conditions is not a useful comparison: they have to cope with it on a regular - usually annual basis - so of course they learn to, and the investment is naturally made in equipment and materials that help them do so.

There are many questions to be asked about how we and our local/national government systems coped - or didn't - and what changes can and should be sensibly made for the future. But the "sensible" bit includes what is economically sensible. If this were to happen more frequently in future then major investment in suitable kit would be worthwhile. If we don't get anything like this for another twenty years then it isn't. Many millions of pounds' worth of snow-clearing vehicles slowly rusting away in council depots - not to mention giant mountains of extra, unneeded rock salt slowly washing away into the environment - would look pretty silly.

I do, however, think that some creative thinking on the subject needs to be done. There may be lower-cost, compromise possibilities, for example, at both local and national level: stockpile huge stores of road salt in, say, six or eight strategically-situated covered stores nationwide? Investigate snow-clearing blades that could be fitted to ordinary council vehicles, and perhaps tyre chains? Or at its most mundane, buy in spiked over-shoe grips for council workers and postmen, perhaps?

Ossie

[osmposm]

There wouldn't be as many problems if they bothered to grit the roads properly, they seem to grit it the night before and leave it, then don't come back till hours after the snowfall when were all having trouble. I understand theres lots of roads to grit however its not just the small roads, its the main roads also that we have problems on!

That is very true, Mark. As I drove along the main road - and it's as main as it gets, it's both the South Circular and the A3 heading SW out of London - in Wandsworth at around 6pm on Sunday, I noticed that the strong winds had blown most of the salt into drifts in the gutters. By the time the first of the serious snow arrived at around 7pm I don't suppose there was anything but a little salty dampness left on the carriageway, and it was soon overwhelmed by the quantities that fell later. In prolonged heavy snow, the major road network surely needs to be gritted almost continuously: it is my impression that round here it was not.

[The PIT]

Wrong forum really.

However perhaps we've also been spoilt by recent mild winters and are now clueless about driving in snow. At one time you would swapped your tyres for snow tyres or had some snow chains handy. Now if you need some snow tyres or chains it special order.

I've certainly noticed a reduction in the amount of grit being dropped by gritters in recent years and generally before Jan everything is measured out by the tea spoon and you can't even see it on the road unless you look very hard. After Jan the amount of Grit used goes up and I presume it's the case of having to use it or have the budget cut. We even get gritted when there's no frost even forecast at the end of the winter.

Councils have also no doubt bought into the AGW theory and probably cut the budget accordingly as well. So less grit so less drivers less equipment therefore can't respond when a sniff of the old winters turns up.

Another thing to remember more traffic on the road a lot more inexperienced drivers they get stuck the whole traffic system gets stuck and therefore gritters get stuck in the traffic.

[frozencamel]

What do you expect them to do? Invest 100 million in ways to deal with a 10, 15 or even 20 year event. Or spend that money on schools, hospitals and other services?

Its just not worth the investment

Having said that running out of grit is unforgivable

[inkermanhero]

I lived in a part of Canada where they don't use salt or grit (environmental damage) but you are required to fit snow tyres from 1st Nov to 31st Mar. They just let it snow and then drive on it - when they have a lot of snow, they let the trucks and 4x4s pack it down (a matter of a few hours) and then just drive on it. They also know how to drive on snow!

I had a Volvo 940 estate and never got stuck in 3 winters - but with Finnish (Hakkapoliita) non-studded tyres fitted. Everyone has a set of cheap steel wheels with the winter tyres in the garage and, come the autumn, off come the shiny alloys with the high-speed tyres and on go the winter ones, which are still S-rated, so good for 100mph!

[get my drift]

What do you expect them to do? Invest 100 million in ways to deal with a 10, 15 or even 20 year event. Or spend that money on schools, hospitals and other services?

Its just not worth the investment

Having said that running out of grit is unforgivable

Running out of grit is unforgivable.

I love the comments "laughing stock of the French" Having worked with many French people over the years whilst working in the restaurant business, i would suggest most of them have always needed cheering up and if us getting a big dump of snow and not being able to deal with it, makes them smile, then this is good on two accounts. we have lots of snow and its made them smile. Two things that rarely happen.

So inconclusion, authorities keep up the good work!

[Mondy]

This is a standard comment by Joe Public

Oi! I ain't Joe Public - I is Delta X-Ray

I read somewhere recently that England (London?) buys their grit from Northern Ireland, but am not 100% sure on this..anyone know? I read this before the "event" occured.

[Snowmad79]

"I think we're all sick and tired of the southern bias"

Agree with this comment 600% Over Hyped and exaggerated on the news !!

I heard on the radio last night about folk down south stranded and having to be rescued then once I returned home from work I watched the video footage and laughed my ass off when i saw the cars stranded in barely 2inch of snow if that ....on a flat road.

A bit of snow and the south crumbles and all of a sudden its a major media national headline.... get real. What about the north ?

[Mondy]

This is a standard comment by Joe Public

So what should the authorties do ?.

The fact is the recent snow event is rare , hasnt happen for at least 18 years and is News Worthy.

((Perhaps darn souf. I don't recall Aberdeenshire being on the ever-lasting ticker bar which appears on 24 hours news nowadays - Aberdeenshire and other numerous places do get snow, but in fairness only a few centimetres less than this most recent fall we have all become used to viewing))

Some authorties are thinking of buying salt/grit from abroad now. Some suggest they will run out shortly. Many dont have enoughs staff/equipment to deal with it.

(See Northern Ireland reply)

So what should we do spend a few billion to get the right equipment ? and let it rot for the next 17 years ?

Nope, Global Cooling is the next big thing - didn't you know ;-)

The guy on the BBC today said if what is happening became a 2 yearly event they would have to look at it but what if it doesnt happen again till 2025 ?

Above

Of course perhaps organisation could be better

BUT... we are not a Moscow or Chicago we dont get regular freezing weather and heavy snow falls and it will always catch us out or is that not a satisfactory answer. ?

To be honest, catching out and continous 5-day Breaking News coverage is my problem - like there is nothing else going on in the world, outwith higher than usual snowfall levels. A Polish freind of mine emailed just a few hours ago - his email said - does nothing else happen in the UK......so true!

Maylaysia has much larger drains then we do should we upgrade for one storm in 20 years

You need to look at the cost and the benifit

You've lost me here

[Cookie]

it ain't the media's fault solely we are a weather mad country, if people weren't interested this round the clock news on it wouldn't exist. same happened during the flood and this years snow.

we have to live with the souther bias and get on with it

[Nick L]

To be honest I don't really see the fuss about the southern bias. When the vast majority of the population lives down south and they receive a very rare, very heavy snowfall then it is going to hit the news. Scotland gets heavy snowfall every winter, when it happens it isn't really news. When London gets exceptionally heavy snow, then of course it is going to be big news.

And as for the comments of "a bit of snow", for those up north then yes maybe it is nothing, but shock horror, us down south aren't used to it and it is a lot to us.

But I do agree that the grit shortage is a disgrace. What has happened to the stockpiles of unused grit for the past decade of mild winters?! If this cold spell continues for the rest of February (which the Met Office seem to be thinking) then we are facing what could be a major problem.

[Costa Del Fal]

To be honest I don't really see the fuss about the southern bias. When the vast majority of the population lives down south and they receive a very rare, very heavy snowfall then it is going to hit the news. Scotland gets heavy snowfall every winter, when it happens it isn't really news. When London gets exceptionally heavy snow, then of course it is going to be big news.

And as for the comments of "a bit of snow", for those up north then yes maybe it is nothing, but shock horror, us down south aren't used to it and it is a lot to us.

I agree nick, its rare such an event should happen down here. The North gets it much more Often!

[Rustynailer]

What Should The Authorities Do ?

Reduce spending on un-necessary white collar workers sorry staff :wub:

Reduce silly jobsworth rules

Abolish dole Spend on salt <_<

Abolish family allowance for any more than 3 kids Spend on snowploughs

Appoint Jeramey Clarkson as Winter Roads Tzar :lol:

Russ

[Tom D]

We have to regard this prolonged cold and snowy weather event as a rare one; you have to prepare for when there's a short spell of snow and keep things going then (this has failed in the past) and only do the best you can.

If it became a more frequent event then a) I'd be very happy and b)it would be easier and more worthwhile to invest.

In my opinion they shouldn't waste money on keeping things going for five days out of 18 years.

[Mondy]

I agree nick, its rare such an event should happen down here. The North gets it much more Often!

Without wall to wall News coverage.

I don't give a stuff about population. Last I checked, we are all part of the UK..yes?

I can't recall any serious weather we've had up here over the years - be it gales, flooding, snow or whatever being reported in the same way as it is now..is this because population only is the issue or simply, it's the way it is?

We may as well lose our identity the way things are being reported nowadays. Sky news isn't worth viewing anymore and the BBC really are plain terrible and out of touch with the UK as a whole.

[Tom D]

Without wall to wall News coverage.

I don't give a stuff about population. Last I checked, we are all part of the UK..yes?

I can't recall any serious weather we've had up here over the years - be it gales, flooding, snow or whatever being reported in the same way as it is now..is this because population only is the issue or simply, it's the way it is?

We may as well lose our identity the way things are being reported nowadays. Sky news isn't worth viewing anymore and the BBC really are plain terrible and out of touch with the UK as a whole.

That's because it happens more often in the north. If the BBC were going to report Scottish gales whenever they happened everyone would complain because they happen so frequently.

The reason this is a major story is because there was half a meter of snow in DEVON last night. 30cm in SOUTH LONDON on Monday. When was the last time that happened? 1991? Even longer for Devon probably. When were the last gales/flooding/snow in Scotland and northern England before this week? A couple of weeks, if that.

News is based on the disruption it has caused too. In Scotland and northern England the disruption is reported when it happens; it's a fact that the south-east is much more densely populated.

[hilldweller]

interesting thread this.

Geoff Hoon was on question time the other and the question was posed to him about what can be done "moscow seems to cope" stupid comment really as they get it every year!

He was also asked why dont we buy more gritters, yeah ok spend 100k on a gritter costs 10k a year keeping it all up together then sell it after 10 years at a major loss.

He then asked the question how many of you have snow chains for your cars?? yup not one single reply

One thing i will say alot of people around this part of the world do keep a set of snow tyres for when the snow comes.

It is a rare event in the uk to have had this much snow/bad weather ( i hate the terms extreme, horrendous yadda yadda yadda)

which we just have to put up with for a month or so ( well heres hoping anyways) then we can forget about for another 10 years or so.

As for the salt problem well there is 100,000+ tonnes sitting in cheshire waiting to be bought.

i ordered 40 tonnes yesterday for where i work and it was delivered at 8 am this morning . The salt mines in cheshire etc are working 24/7 to keep with the supply.

As i have heard the mines had been put back to shorter working hours due to the lack of orders, maybe the councils were holding back as they didnt have so much money spend following the collaspe of the icelandic banks .

I live in Derbyshire ( one of the many counties with salt shortages) and over the years they shrunk the salt reserves to very little, it used to be in big piles at the side of the road,alas no more.

i guess the bottom line is if it were to become a major event every year then yes investment is required but until then i guess we will have to put up with it or stay at home!!

kind regards,

Kev W

[Mondy]

When were the last gales/flooding/snow in Scotland and northern England before this week? A couple of weeks, if that.

Often - you just don't hear about them....

[Snowmad79]

I agree nick, its rare such an event should happen down here. The North gets it much more Often!

Its rare up here too tbh, we barley get decent snowfall in many parts of the north and the fact is until this week we havent done since 2000/2001 and prior to that 1997 which is the same for many parts of the south but we deal with it and yes it does cause as much havoc up here as it does in the south despite the difference in population numbers. They should keep the over-reacted media hype to "local news" rather than spam the national news.. thats just my opinion.

As for the grit shortages, I suppose it doesnt help when they hammer down the grit during the milder days/nights like they were doing before this cold snap. Also what I find funny is that this week our council have actually been clearing all the paths around my area and putting grit down which they've never done before and its almost as deep in grit as the grass is with snow lol.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Well, I do think the "southern bias" is a significant issue, but on the other hand, I don't think the extensive media coverage of the snow "down south" is a good example of southern bias- as it has indeed been a very notable and disruptive event. For many southern areas it has been the biggest snow event for a number of years. Here in Exeter for example, there have been 2 significant snow events, the second of which left a 2-inch covering, most of which is still lying now- which is as much as Exeter has had in the entirety of the last decade. Up on Dartmoor depths have approached 10 inches, which is unusual. And then there's the huge event in London, in places the biggest since 1991.

But overall, there are aspects of the "southern bias" which do grate, and to be honest I'm sick and tired of the way we Brits, when faced with a problem, invariably shrug our shoulders and say "that's life", and if someone suggests doing something about it, we dismiss their arguments with nonsense like "it can't be helped, because that's just the way it is". It isn't acceptable to treat anywhere north of Watford as if it doesn't exist, which the media often does. It's fine having more news events from down south because the greater land mass is there and more people live there, but not ignoring the north altogether. Like saying what a gloriously warm sunny spell "Britain" is having when we have a Bartlett giving brilliant sunshine to London and dull drizzly weather north and west of a line from Southampton to the Wash- at least refine it to note that it's just the southeast having it under those circumstances!