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Political Involvement With Agw / Gw / Climate Change


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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
Don't know if it's dodgy reporting or if it's a verbatim quote but the "He said sceptics who refused to believe dramatic cuts in carbon emissions could be delivered should consider the example of the young scientists in the NASA team which put a man on the moon on 1969." strikes me as being a large side step from Gore's previous stance.

Scepticism on this topic has always been about the actual science of the theory, not whether or not it's possible to move away from a carbon based future.

The cynic in me wonders if he's moved away from the science debate as there are too many questions he cannot answer. Further to this, concentrating on the dream of a carbon free future won't do his carbon offset company any harm will it? As for setting himself up as a Churchill like character in the fight against climate change, I'm not sure that's a wise move. For every person who thinks "yes, a man to lead us in the fight" I'm pretty sure they'll be at least three who think "jumped up little yank, how dare you compare yourself to our great leader"; let's not forget, Churchill leads the way by a long margin in all the polls as the greatest leader this country has ever had, a failed presidential candidate (sporting a large chip on his shoulder ever since) thinks he ranks along side Mr. C? Hmmmmmm.

Invoking Godwin's law, is usually a last ditch attempt to win a lost battle.....

Al Gore did not either compare himself to Churchill or mention the Nazi's - that's just the WUWT spin on it - I would of course change my mind if shown a direct (not spin, direct) quote from Al Gore though :D .

However commentators over on WUWT are busily trying to Godwinise Al Gore based on the spin - they really hate him :D

Edited by Devonian
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Posted
  • Location: Cheddar Valley, 20mtrs asl
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and lots of it or warm and sunny, no mediocre dross
  • Location: Cheddar Valley, 20mtrs asl
Al Gore did not either compare himself to Churchill or mention the Nazi's - that's just the WUWT spin on it - I would of course change my mind if shown a direct (not spin, direct) quote from Al Gore though :D .

However commentators over on WUWT are busily trying to Godwinise Al Gore based on the spin - they really hate him :D

Do they now write The Times?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/envi...icle6658672.ece

Edited by jethro
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Posted
  • Location: Dorset
  • Location: Dorset

In answer Dev, No Gore never mentioned Hitler or the Nazi's as far as I am aware, but used WWII as an example of where political will achieved a great deal of good.

This hasn't stopped certain people from the Times (the Energy Editor and Mr Booker) nor WUWT from smearing Gore at every attempt (and certain people from gleefully using that on other forums )

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon

Jethro, I've read that - where did he use the word Nazi? My information is he did not. Again, I'd happily accept some evidence I'm wrong (like a direct quote of what he said). Imo, The Times changed their headline because it was wrong.

I really dislike people being demonized (as Al Gore so often is) on the basis of something that is simply not true.

What Al Gore did do was to compare the political will needed to tackle AGW/CC with that needed to fight the second world war - a big, big difference.

In answer Dev, No Gore never mentioned Hitler or the Nazi's as far as I am aware, but used WWII as an example of where political will achieved a great deal of good.

This hasn't stopped certain people from the Times (the Energy Editor and Mr Booker) nor WUWT from smearing Gore at every attempt (and certain people from gleefully using that on other forums )

Exactly, Ice.

It's a disgraceful business.

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Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

It's another case of smearing I think: someone reports that another someone has said something, but no-one actually knows which someone said what something...

Maybe someone is desperate? :D

Than again, it was in the Daily Mail! :D

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Posted
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
We have everything we need except political will but political will is a renewable resource. - Al Gore

Al Gore seeks Triumph of the Will.

Where have I heard that before?

I'm glad to read that so many would be amazed if Al Gore actually intended to imply scientists were Nazis.

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
Al Gore seeks Triumph of the Will.

Where have I heard that before?

Al Gore said what he did, not what you, or anyone else, say he did.

I'm glad to read that so many would be amazed if Al Gore actually intended to imply scientists were Nazis.

Why do you feel you need to say that?

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Posted
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres

I did not say Al Gore said the word "Nazi". He did, however, refer to World War II, which in Europe was fought against the Nazis.

And yes, I am very impressed. Since James Hansen has already referred to coal-fired power stations that emit plant-loving CO2 as "death factories" I've been waiting for the rhetorical pincer movement to end with real scientists being called Nazis. It's not happened yet, which is good and shows the vast majority of people who believe in AGW are not complete jerks.

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
I did not say Al Gore said the word "Nazi". He did, however, refer to World War II, which in Europe was fought against the Nazis.

Right, Al Gore did not (as has been claimed by WUWT and most of it's band of not so merry followers) use the word Nazi, make a comparison between AGW/CC and Nazism or compare himself to Churchill.

And yes, I am very impressed. Since James Hansen has already referred to coal-fired power stations that emit plant-loving CO2 as "death factories" I've been waiting for the rhetorical pincer movement to end with real scientists being called Nazis. It's not happened yet, which is good and shows the vast majority of people who believe in AGW are not complete jerks.

Ohh, it's soooo hard to tell what your views are :D

Fact is most of the allegations along the lines of 'You're a Nazi' come from commentators at WUWT and the like and are directed at people like AL Gore. Mostly they're based on the kind of complete misrepresentation the WUWT article were discussing is.

Edited by Devonian
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Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
the vast majority of people who believe in AGW are not complete jerks.

That's good to know, AF...Also, the whole episode clearly demonstrates that not all people who don't believe in AGW are Mensa-rating geniuses? :D

Edited by Pete Tattum
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Posted
  • Location: Blackburn, Lancs
  • Location: Blackburn, Lancs

Gory Al is a self publicist who likes to preach the perils of excess CO2, whilst jetting around the world in one of his many private planes. How certain people on here can hold this person in high esteem, beggars belief!! But hey ho, if a person tells you what you want to hear, then I guess you can put him on a pedestal regardless!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
Gory Al is a self publicist who likes to preach the perils of excess CO2, whilst jetting around the world in one of his many private planes. How certain people on here can hold this person in high esteem, beggars belief!! But hey ho, if a person tells you what you want to hear, then I guess you can put him on a pedestal regardless!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, that' just Ad Hom directed at Al Gore and 'certain people' - bit like all that outrageous cr*p on WUWT which even you can't bring yourself to defend :D So, this isn't about holding Al Gore in high esteem (that's a distraction) but whether WUWT has grossly misrepresented him - it has!

How certain people can hold WUWT in high esteem really does beggar belief.

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Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
Gory Al is a self publicist who likes to preach the perils of excess CO2, whilst jetting around the world in one of his many private planes. How certain people on here can hold this person in high esteem, beggars belief!! But hey ho, if a person tells you what you want to hear, then I guess you can put him on a pedestal regardless!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I love snow, SC...I don't want to be told that the globe has warmed; it's just unfortunate, for me that is, that it has?? :D Do you suggest I put IceAgenow on a pedestal? :)

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Posted
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres

I'll defend WUWT.

Right, Al Gore did not (as has been claimed by WUWT and most of it's band of not so merry followers) use the word Nazi

Devonian, if your claim is WUWT said Al Gore used the word "Nazi" you are wrong. You are misrepresenting WUWT.

Here's the relevant passage and quote -

Al Gore today compared the battle against climate change with the struggle against the Nazis.The former US Vice President said the world lacked the political will to act and invoked the spirit of Winston Churchill by encouraging leaders to unite their nations to fight climate change.

...

Speaking in Oxford at the Smith School World Forum on Enterprise and the Environment, sponsored by The Times, Mr Gore said: “Winston Churchill aroused this nation in heroic fashion to save civilisation in World War II.”

He added: “We have everything we need except political will but political will is a renewable resource.”

WUWT

Edited by AtlanticFlamethrower
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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
I'll defend WUWT.

Devonian, if your claim is WUWT said Al Gore used the word "Nazi" you are wrong. You are misrepresenting WUWT.

Here's the relevant passage and quote -

Then why is the WUWT article titled 'Gore and Nazis'??? And why did Anthony Watts (WUWT's owner) say "I had never ever, wanted to have Nazism be a discussion on this blog, and had deleted such references in the past so as to not incite further. But when Gore makes it headline news, what choice do I have?"??? And then read the comments - they can certainly take a hint, indeed... be incited...

Edited by Devonian
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Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

Oh, I see...Pundits imply something then retract 'something' without actually retracting their initial implication? Very clever! :D

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Posted
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
Then why is the WUWT article titled 'Gore and Nazis'???

Because of the implication. What was civilisation defending itself against in WWII, if not the Nazis?

I'll accept that you were mistaken when you said WUWT claimed Al Gore used the word "Nazi". They did not.

And why did Anthony Watts (WUWT's owner) say "I had never ever, wanted to have Nazism be a discussion on this blog, and had deleted such references in the past so as to not incite further. But when Gore makes it headline news, what choice do I have?"??? And then read the comments - they can certainly take a hint, indeed... be incited...

He quoted Al Gore who said: “Winston Churchill aroused this nation in heroic fashion to save civilisation in World War II."

That is, Al Gore is comparing his cause to the fight against the Nazis in WWII. Everybody who is literate can understand the implication in those words.

Al Gore went too far, further than the vast majority of AGW proponents would even think to go. Period.

Edited by AtlanticFlamethrower
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Posted
  • Location: Blackburn, Lancs
  • Location: Blackburn, Lancs
Well, that' just Ad Hom directed at Al Gore and 'certain people' - bit like all that outrageous cr*p on WUWT which even you can't bring yourself to defend :D So, this isn't about holding Al Gore in high esteem (that's a distraction) but whether WUWT has grossly misrepresented him - it has!

How certain people can hold WUWT in high esteem really does beggar belief.

WUWT is at the forefront of climate science Dev, like it or not! Their are plenty of sceptics I tend not to agree with, Mockton being one of these Dev. Unlike quite a few warmists, who can't see the dead wood for the trees!

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
Because of the implication. What was civilisation defending itself against in WWII, if not the Nazis?

I'll accept that you were mistaken when you said WUWT claimed Al Gore used the word "Nazi". They did not.

No need to put words in my mouth - what WUWT said is quite clear 'Gore and Nazis' You may not see you're being fed, but I can :winky:

The implication was WUWT's, not Gores - the title WAS 'Gore and Nazis'. But Al Gore did not use the word Nazi, or compare himself to Churchill. He talked about political will being needed to win world war two and tackle AGW/CC. WUWT completely misrepresented him, and the commentators there went completely OTT. I can't understand how anyone can defend that.

He quoted Al Gore who said: “Winston Churchill aroused this nation in heroic fashion to save civilisation in World War II."

That is, Al Gore is comparing his cause to the fight against the Nazis in WWII. Everybody who is literate can understand the implication in those words.

It's not his cause, don't further misrepresent him well...besides, unless I'm very much mistaken we fought World War II against Japan and Italy as well.

Al Gore went too far, further than the vast majority of AGW proponents would even think to go. Period.

Blimey, so a WUWT title 'Gore and Nazis' isn't going too far (despite Gore never uttering the word, and despite it provoking hundreds of replies all condemning Al Gore for doing something he didn't) but Al Gore even mentioning WWII is - how amazingly contradictory you are :o .

And, we must we not mention WWII now for fear of being called Nazis :doh:

WUWT is at the forefront of climate science Dev, like it or not! Their are plenty of sceptics I tend not to agree with, Mockton being one of these Dev. Unlike quite a few warmists, who can't see the dead wood for the trees!

It's at the forefront of something....carefully constructed and misleading articles that feed it's audiences need.

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Posted
  • Location: Cheddar Valley, 20mtrs asl
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and lots of it or warm and sunny, no mediocre dross
  • Location: Cheddar Valley, 20mtrs asl
Because of the implication. What was civilisation defending itself against in WWII, if not the Nazis?

I'll accept that you were mistaken when you said WUWT claimed Al Gore used the word "Nazi". They did not.

He quoted Al Gore who said: “Winston Churchill aroused this nation in heroic fashion to save civilisation in World War II."

That is, Al Gore is comparing his cause to the fight against the Nazis in WWII. Everybody who is literate can understand the implication in those words.

Al Gore went too far, further than the vast majority of AGW proponents would even think to go. Period.

Precisely.

That is of course unless Churchill roused this nation to fight against little green men from Mars during WWII.

No one got anything to say about his move away from the scepticism of the actual science, instead choosing to state the scepticism is about a carbon free existence?

Forgot to add, it wasn't WUWT who made the connection between Gore and the Nazis, it was The Times - WUWT have merely reported it. As The Times were sponsoring the event, it's difficult to see this as an ad hom attack upon Gore or the climate change argument.

Edited by jethro
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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
Precisely.

That is of course unless Churchill roused this nation to fight against little green men from Mars during WWII.

Al Gore was talking about political will being needed to fight WWII and AGW/CC. Besides, did we just fight the Nazis? What about Japan and Italy?

No one got anything to say about his move away from the scepticism of the actual science, instead choosing to state the scepticism is about a carbon free existence?

When people stop defending the gross misrepresentation of what AL Gore said by WUWT then perhaps we can move on - but plenty of people still seem to be defending such indefensible action and I for one am busy opposing that :winky:

Forgot to add, it wasn't WUWT who made the connection between Gore and the Nazis, it was The Times - WUWT have merely reported it. As The Times were sponsoring the event, it's difficult to see this as an ad hom attack upon Gore or the climate change argument.

Then why didn't WUWT drop it?

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Posted
  • Location: Blackburn, Lancs
  • Location: Blackburn, Lancs
No need to put words in my mouth - what WUWT said is quite clear 'Gore and Nazis' You may not see you're being fed, but I can :winky:

The implication was WUWT's, not Gores - the title WAS 'Gore and Nazis'. But Al Gore did not use the word Nazi, or compare himself to Churchill. He talked about political will being needed to win world war two and tackle AGW/CC. WUWT completely misrepresented him, and the commentators there went completely OTT. I can't understand how anyone can defend that.

It's not his cause, don't further misrepresent him well...besides, unless I'm very much mistaken we fought World War II against Japan and Italy as well.

Blimey, so a WUWT title 'Gore and Nazis' isn't going too far (despite Gore never uttering the word, and despite it provoking hundreds of replies all condemning Al Gore for doing something he didn't) but Al Gore even mentioning WWII is - how amazingly contradictory you are :o .

And, we must we not mention WWII now for fear of being called Nazis :doh:

It's at the forefront of something....carefully constructed and misleading articles that feed it's audiences need.

The very same could be said of countless AGW sites, were warmists can get their daily fix of self hate nonsense! But unlike some warmists, I don't buy everything I see and hear, I can think for myself!!

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
The very same could be said of countless AGW sites, were warmists can get their daily fix of self hate nonsense! But unlike some warmists, I don't buy everything I see and hear, I can think for myself!!

You're like me then, I don't buy anything I read on WUWT :winky:

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Posted
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
  • Location: South Woodham Ferrers, height 15 metres
No need to put words in my mouth - what WUWT said is quite clear 'Gore and Nazis' You may not see you're being fed, but I can :winky:

The implication was WUWT's, not Gores - the title WAS 'Gore and Nazis'. But Al Gore did not use the word Nazi, or compare himself to Churchill. He talked about political will being needed to win world war two and tackle AGW/CC. WUWT completely misrepresented him, and the commentators there went completely OTT. I can't understand how anyone can defend that.

WUWT did not claim Al Gore used the word "Nazi". Can we agree this one observable fact is true?

Edited by AtlanticFlamethrower
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