Sun Strength

[LomondSnowstorm]

Was out walking in the countryside this morning and even with the sun out it never felt uncomfortable actually felt quite chilly in that breeze before the milder dewpoints pushed south this afternoon, its amazing how quickly you acclimatise to mild weather as even with temps of 12C this afternoon if you are sat still it feels chilly

Actually this may sound weird but the sun feels stronger when in built up town areas maybe something to do with concrete absorbing the suns heat but in wide open fields in the countryside its feels alot cooler.

Urban Heat Island Effect?

[len]

There is tons of research piling out ATM about widespread Vitamin D deficiency.

Most "Westerners" have begun to live like Troglodites in the last century or so, working indoors and covering up when outside. Science is now discovering the obvious. The Colds-&-Flu-Season is the dark season (worldwide)when people become Vit D deficient.

I started taking Vitamin D (2000IU/day) five winters ago and have shrugged off every cold brought near to me since then.

The disastrous errors started in Australia of slapping on Bezine-derived sunscreens, combined with the switch (in "Western" cultures) to immuno-suppressing Vegetable oils (away from the stable sturated fats we were evolved to eat) may well be the cause of the continuing rise in Melanoma. The cancer-mondiale map of Melanoma frequency is a map of something about "Western Culture" causing Melanoma not sunlight.

See.......

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/skin-cancer.html

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/sunlight.html

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/full_spectrum_sunlight.html

Slow to open, but worth the wait

Enjoy the sun as I see all the animals doing around the farm. Don't burn; but don't wear chemicals on your skin either. And don't wear sunglasses, to get the benefits of UV through the eye into the Pineal Gland.

(And NO saturated fats DON'T cause Heart Disease, check it out! Just ask the Q in Google)

Edited March 22, 2010 by len

[johnholmes]

I have only read the first one Len-quite fascinating and I quote its conclusions below

Conclusion

To reduce the risk of skin cancer and all other cancers a high level of vitamin D is essential. Current advice to stay out of the sun and to wear a sunscreen or cover up when in it, has proven to be disastrous to our health. For your health's sake, you should get out in the sun, in the middle of the day, without a sunscreen, as often as possible. It doesn't need to be for long 10 - 15 minutes a day will suffice. Do that and we could see cancer death rates take a steep nose-dive.

I have to say its the first time I've heard/read anything like that. Again I wonder what other arguments there are that oppose this idea, perhaps in your two other links which I've not read?

Like I said at the beginning, fascinating, and I suspect we will get heated discussions akin to the AGW/GW debate, but thanks for that information.

Edited March 22, 2010 by johnholmes

[Thundery wintry showers]

Here's Wikipedia's take on the issue, plenty of sourced info, but not all of it is guaranteed to be reliable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risks_and_benefits_of_sun_exposure

It is, indeed, fascinating to see all of the arguments and counter-arguments. There doesn't seem to be any clear-cut consensus on the issue, but most likely it's another of those where a modest amount is a good thing but an excessive amount is a bad thing, and the optimal level will most likely vary widely between individuals depending on pigment amounts.

I have vested interests in the issue unfortunately: I have albinism (a condition which makes tanning a near-impossibility), and know from experience that if you don't tan, it is frowned upon in many circles, so I wouldn't be thrilled to see tanning proved as healthy because it would only increase the extent of those prejudices. However, that's more a separate issue of being picked on for being different than anything else, and in an objective sense, having seen the main arguments, I can see compelling cases for and against provided that it is not excessive.

[pottyprof]

I think it's that same old saying.. Everything in moderation. Having had a pre-cancerous mole removed a few years ago, I've not covered up totally, nor have I applied sunscreen on a regular basis but I have limited the length of time I spend in direct sunlight. Time spent near water is something else that I have limited due to the amount of reflected UV. I find that I tan rather than burn by limiting the amount of sunlight I expose myself to.

Picking up on the saturated fat thing.... It's true. Recent research shows that lard and dripping is far healthier than vegetable oil for cooking with. There was a program on the Beeb a while ago reporting the findings. The "in moderation" thing applies though.

[Joneseye]

Thanks for the link at the start... off to Thailand in early May where the UV index will be up in the 14-15 region - uh oh!

[La Bise]

Is there some kind of serious research to back up some of the wild claims on this thread or is it the usual stuff pulled out of a blog on the internet and passed as "science catching up" claptrap...?

Saturated fat are part of our diet, the problem is the monstruous excessive consumption of it that is now the standard western diet coupled with the lifestyle of a sloth. However I doubt cooking in butter is healthier than using olive oil or geese fat (a surprisingly healthy cooking fat as it happens...)...If by vegetable oil, you mean those horrible conction full of hydrogenated rubbish, then yes, the less of that you use, the better. Cutting on take aways and fast food is the first step towards that.

Sun is important but advising people to go out burn under it, without sun-glasses is quite frankly irresponsible, the causal link of excessive UV leading to melanoma, particularly in Australia where the ozone layer has depleted more than in other parts is well established.

You can get sunburned quite easily in february, skiing and by march, a day out in the sun hiking does the business without any problems.

[johnholmes]

I think it's that same old saying.. Everything in moderation.

so very true on just about everything in life

[conor123]

Excessively tanning has always seemed somewhat pointless to me, last year as a result of walking to and from college 4-5 days a week, lots of time outdoors in general and a week in Cyprus my skin went very dark even despite using suncream, i remember getting sunburnt in September aswell after id stopped using suncream thinking a combination of darker skin and a quickly lowering UV index would mean i wouldn't get burnt.

However a few weeks later i was back to the normal very pale colour so actually trying to sit and tan seems pointless as a darkening tan over the Spring/Summer period will fade in a matter of a week or two anyway.

[Guest]

There is tons of research piling out ATM about widespread Vitamin D deficiency.

Some interesting articles there len, thank you. I'm already strongly into the idea that the sun is not something to hide away from and that it should be respected but not avoided. I suffer from psoriasis and am looking forward to t-shirt and shorts weather to help calm it all down. I certainly don't wear sun cream when at home even in the middle of summer; you just need to be sensible about exposure and build a tan slowly. We don't put sun cream on the kids either, unless they are in the back garden in the paddling pool and not covered up by clothing. We get pulled up about that by the thought police though

The parts of the articles about fats I find very interesting too, pardon the pun but it is food for thought.

[len]

I didn't mean to deflect the debate or subject in any way.

But my primary field of obsessive study is health issues; with weather a runner-up.

I've just been shocked at how some ideas get accepted by the Politico-Medical establishment with very little criticism, whilst others are rejected despite a great weight of scientific backing.

The "Lipid-Hypothesis" of Ancil Keyes (That sat-fats cause Heart-Disease) was an example of the former. Although it later proved to be a terrible piece of research (He omitted data from many countries because they didn't fit his graph) Time magazine ran with it and the media followed. But it has been impossible to prove. Studies that appeared to prove it, lumped Trans-fats in with Sat-fats (Although the Trans were mostly Veg-oil derived!). It was the Trans-fats that were the problem.

I suggested typing "Do saturated fats cause heart disease" into Google.

This question is phrased to favour a "Yes". But it will bring up surprises. Hard Science to.

"Moderation" is like Motherhood & Apple-Pie. It is fine, but it can be a simple substitute for playing safe when knowledge is lacking. Burning is obviously bad....but what is "moderate" sun -exposure. What are we evolved to cope with, need or benefit from???

How about "Commonsense" to?

"Live as near to the natural environment that you are evolved for" would seem to be the answer.

That means being outdoors a lot more than a "moderate" amount!

Until some Dermatologists got a bee in their bonnet in the 60s every doctor "knew" sunlight was healthy, and they advised people to seek it out. It treated TB, Psoriasis, Acne, Eczema and general well-being & Good Health.

There is a lot of sloppy, skewed, vested-interest-funded science around, but don't trust "officialdom" or Government to run with the best. They select according to convenience, Policy-leanings and Lobbying. And they seem to have an unerring knack for running with some bad ideas.

Consider for instance “The Mediterranean diet”. It is one of those ideas the media, and conventional medical establishment, grabbed at with little scrutiny. (Contrast Government refusals to consider the staggering mountain of science against their Fluoridation Policy )

(1)The Japanese are the longest-living developed people. They did not use olive oil.

And the longest-living Japanese are the Okinawans….they cook with lard!

(2)The French have the greatest longevity of “Western” peoples. But….

(a)Only a small fraction of France is “Mediterranean”. If “Mediterranean” was the ideal diet, then the Italians, Greeks, Spanish and many North African peoples would live longer.

(:winky:The French region with greatest longevity is NOT the Mediterranean area!

It is the South-West. (Gascogne/Perigord, and especially Le Gers).

Their traditional fats are Goose and Duck fat, because the area has a peculiarly “avian” agriculture and is the home of fois gras.

Generous amounts of bacon fat are also eaten. And some say their Madiran-grape wine is the reason.

In general, Mediteranean peoples live longer than Northern-Europeans. But too often people and governments jump on plausible explanatory-foods, which do not stand up to rigorous analysis.

Why say it is……Red Wine? or Garlic? or Olive oil?

Why not say…….Parsley? Haricots verts? or fois gras for that matter? which are just as characteristic of the French diet.

Or the habit of eating UNPASTEURISED cheese (High in CLA and Cystine ) with every meal? Cystine is a vital precursor for Glutathione which is associated with longevity and CLA is associated with lean body mass.

Or the French habit of eating slowly that keeps Leptin resistance and insulin resistance low?

Or is it that European-Mediterranean peoples profit from the extra sunlight and consequent vitamin D (in a way Muslim North Africans do not)?

Or French longevity could be a combination of their diet, their WAYof eating, and their broader focus on the QUALITY of life which has meant generous holidays, a slow pace, and a strong societal ethic which has minimalised exclusion and marginalisation which are always associated with bad health and shortened lifespan.

Who knows? It is unknown. And Governments should not meddle with their outdated half-baked advice. They seem to have an infallible touch for getting things wrong.

I speak as a Brit who has lived in France and has many French family connections through marriage.

So, when it comes to "science news" and health, I'd say don't trust any advice that advocates a break from the "commonsense" of doing what we were evolved to do. It is a monument to our gullibility (and to the power of the media) that they persuaded us that sunshine was bad for us. They could as well persuade us that fresh air is lethal.

Edited March 23, 2010 by len

[La Bise]

Is it not the case that it is excess of sat fat that causes heart disease rather than sat fat per se, something that I do not think is in any way controversial and disputed by the medical profession.

Is it not also the case that the depletion of the ozone layer as well as excessive amount of sun due to increased outdoors activities such as beach holidays and, of course, tanning salon popularity has lead to the increase in cases of melanoma rather than some nebulous notion of troglodyte lifestye? All the doctors I have talked to have been fullsome in their praise for my hiking activities, I never had one telling me to cut it out due to melanoma risk...And I put on suncream otherwise, I would burn myself to a cinder despite having a "latin" type skin.

The "Med Diet" is an excellent diet to follow, it is rich in fruit, veg and grillet meat/fish as well as some nicely fatty stuff (fried fish is very popular in the Med area) and moderate alcohol consumption. It is head and shoulder above the typical anglo-saxon diet of take-away, ready meals and general junk that makes up most people diet in the UK and USA. Beyond any societal notion of a healthier pace of life (which you are very right to point out), the food itself is much better, health wise and closer to mankind ideal diet.

The diet of the South-West of France does indeed include some pretty yummy fatty stuff but also large quantities of fresh veg and fruits. Unpasteurised cheeses are not that popular anymore in France, most cheeses bought are standard, pasteurised stuff. You'll find them more popular in Switzerland where the two main players, Gruyeres and Emmenthal are still sold unpasteurised (including in the UK)

There is ample evidence to show that food eaten in those parts of the world do contribute (but not exclusively) to the people better healther and longevity.

I wish there was a governement conspiracy to promote this kind of diet, but as usual with this kind of stuff, the biggest conspiracy, that of untrammeled freedom for junk food peddlers is ignored despite being right there in front of you...

[conor123]

Well the UV index certainly looks like it would of risen a lot in time for the high pressure by the end of the week:

Here in Telford (providing clear sky):

Date UV

index ozone

column

5 Apr 2010 2.9 395.9 DU

6 Apr 2010 2.9 396.1 DU

7 Apr 2010 2.7 427.9 DU

8 Apr 2010 3.1 386.2 DU

9 Apr 2010 3.3 373.8 DU

10 Apr 2010 3.5 364.2 DU

11 Apr 2010 3.6 353.6 DU

London

Date UV

index ozone

column

5 Apr 2010 3.0 398.8 DU

6 Apr 2010 3.2 383.1 DU

7 Apr 2010 2.9 419.7 DU

8 Apr 2010 3.0 411.1 DU

9 Apr 2010 3.6 366.6 DU

10 Apr 2010 3.5 379.9 DU

11 Apr 2010 3.8 362.5 DU

[Derp Patrol]

Yep, by the end of the week I expect we will start to see the topless builders walking around with sunburn. From now onwards people need to be careful when they are in the sun because despite what may feel like a cool day, the sun is strong enough to burn.

[La Bise]

Indeed, forgot to apply my suncream when playing in the Welsh mountains yesterday and my cheeck feel a bit warm today. Nothing too unpleasant but a reminder that now, a day in the sun means protection.

[Thundery wintry showers]

I wish there was a governement conspiracy to promote this kind of diet, but as usual with this kind of stuff, the biggest conspiracy, that of untrammeled freedom for junk food peddlers is ignored despite being right there in front of you...

The junk food culture is indeed a significant problem, and I would be strongly in favour of addressing it provided that it didn't involve punishing innocent people who eat "junk food" as part of a balanced diet which includes a generous dose of bread, fruits and vegetables. Or, more to the point from a personal perspective, I don't want to have to pay three times as much for chocolate, crisps and chips because a minority can't keep their fatty food desires under control, or be denied access to them for the same reason. Unfortunately our culture seems incapable of dealing with irresponsible behaviour without punishing innocent people first and foremost, so I won't be holding my breath.

This is, indeed, the time of year when the sun becomes stronger. I did a lot of walking at the end of March 2004 and caught the sun quite badly, yet in early March I can go out in the sun for long periods without burning. The higher UV values can creep up almost unnoticed at this time of year.

[Summer of 95]

I love sunshine, but having fair skin I can get absolutely fried in summer; I can't tan easily but either get covered in small blisters that itch (mostly on my right arm due to the "open car window" thing) or just go red and peel (especially if I've taken a dip in the sea).

current depth of tan (as a natural defense against the UV

This makes me wonder whether we in Britain burn so easily because there's so often almost no sunshine for months in winter. Having been to NZ in their winter the weather outside Auckland/Northland seemed much the same as here, except there was far, far more sunshine- the prevailing pattern there when it wasn't raining or snowing seemed to be sunny days, frosty nights not days on end of overcast. There can't be many inhabited places that have such short days and low sunshine totals in winter as here in Britain, that don't have snow on the ground (which raises light levels) most of the time during the heart of winter.

[Eugene]

Was out walking yesterday in the lovely warwickshire countryside and the furthest thing from my mind was thinking of applying sunscream, the gusty wind and very wet fields were my main concern.

No sunburn to report, not that i ever do in early April :unsure:

[La Bise]

Yeah, but I had the snow reflection to contend with as well

[Derp Patrol]

4s are starting to show up on the UV index on the BBC 5 day weather forecasts for southern areas for this week. It does get stronger very quickly, a month ago the UV index was about 1 everywhere.

Personally, I don't tend to catch the sun untill May-August, unless i'm outside for most of the day

[damianslaw]

I remember having to slap on plenty of sun cream during April 2007 under those clear blue skies whilst walking. By the end of the month the sun is as high in the sky as it is in late August and can certainly pack a punch. However, it isn't usually until May when I expect to burn if not protected.

The period between late april and mid May seems to be when the sun suddenly gains much greater strength, similiar to the reverse period of late sept- mid october when it suddenly seems to lose all power.

[johnholmes]

Some people can burn in late March at sea level, burning can occur in the mountains in mid winter, its not the temperature but the sun's strength, or the UV value, which is the major factor. A cold wind and unbroken sunshine in late March/early April are classic burning situations!

[conor123]

Certainly not caught the sun today though i was only in it from 4pm - 5pm and the UV index is probably next to none existant by then.

[damianslaw]

Some people can burn in late March at sea level, burning can occur in the mountains in mid winter, its not the temperature but the sun's strength, or the UV value, which is the major factor. A cold wind and unbroken sunshine in late March/early April are classic burning situations!

True it is the length of time that skin is exposed to unbroken sunshine which is the key factor, generally the higher you are in altitude the greater the suns rays strength. Abundant sunshine and a cooling strong wind are a lethal combination, the cooling wind often lulls people into a false sense of security, it is much more difficult to notice if the skin is burning when a wind is blowing on the skin, in calmer conditions it becomes much more noticeable.

[SP1986]

I actually find the colouring of typical British skin fascinating, racial mixing has something to do with it, but as a collective the standard British skin colour (without mixing) should probably be slightly darker than it is - what makes this difficult to measure though is mixing with Scandinavian genetics, (red/blonde hair). Alot of Mediterranean skin types vary as much as British do, you can find blonde and red haired people in Spain and Greece, albeit usually a little darker toned.

Mixing has done such as that you can't really define a countries skin colour by the average person any more. When people say Mediterranean natives have darker skin this isn't so true, but they do tan better, in the main they generally have as white skin as British people, just in better condition (going back to diets etc)