Surviving Snow Patches

[summer blizzard]

Where is observatory gully?

[Radiating Dendrite]

Where is observatory gully?

Ben Nevis I think.

[Norrance]

Ben Nevis I think.

It is Ben Nevis.

[swales]

May be a stupid question but what sort of temperatures/conditions do patches need to survive?

Thanks.

[Radiating Dendrite]

May be a stupid question but what sort of temperatures/conditions do patches need to survive?

Thanks.

I would assume the following:

Shade

Low Humidity

Shelter

Cold Surface (rock type that does not quickly warm)

Repeated cycles of freeze thaw the previous winter

These could be wrong............firefly over to you!

[firefly]

I would assume the following:

Shade

Low Humidity

Shelter

Cold Surface (rock type that does not quickly warm)

Repeated cycles of freeze thaw the previous winter

These could be wrong............firefly over to you!

Not bad!

The single most important factor in my opinion is the direction that the snow blows in from during winter. This year is a classic example. Huge volumes of snow fell, but the normal long-lasting sites mostly all missed out because little of it came from the SW. Most of the big snowfalls had an easterly direction, which is really very little use to corries facing NE! Also, snow blowing in on a SW wind is generally driven in at pace. It doesn't need Einstein to realise that snow blown in quickly (i.e. large quantities) will accumulate faster than snow with little wind.

Freeze/thaw is also important. Again, this year there was very little indeed. Temperatures in the Highlands stayed below freezing for weeks at a time, and a lack of SW or S hairdryers to thaw the pack ensured it stayed unconsolidated. When the inevitable warming came, the snow was not very resilient at all.

When the patches get small, shelter from bright sunlight is crucial. A good example of this is the Aonach Beag patch, which sits at a strangely low 3155 ft (lower than Scafell). This patch sits below the 1000 ft cliffs of the summit, and is very well sheltered indeed. It probably misses out on most summer sun. Direct sunlight, in my view, melts snow quicker than warm rain. That's not to say that warm rain doesn't have a big effect, but sunshine is a bigger factor (in my humble view).

Snow that sits on earth lasts longer than snow that sits on rock. Snow on earth is better insulated, and is not as prone to melting from beneath. Rain running down rock gets into the bottom of the snow and melts it, thereby allowing the melting process to form a two-pronged attack! A good example of that is the protalus rampart snow, shown here from October 2007 where it has broken into pieces as a result of melting from below.

[swales]

Thank you very much for the replies, it has helped me understand better.

I was wondering if fresh snowfall around September/October in the Scottish mountains if possible would actually stick in to the rest of winter rather than thaw?

One last thing, again may sound silly but do you expect some snow patches to survive in to this winter? (I'm thinking yes?)

[❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️]

Are there any patches that don't get any direct sunlight?

[Cymro]

Thank you very much for the replies, it has helped me understand better.

I was wondering if fresh snowfall around September/October in the Scottish mountains if possible would actually stick in to the rest of winter rather than thaw?

One last thing, again may sound silly but do you expect some snow patches to survive in to this winter? (I'm thinking yes?)

Shwd i ti amser hir heb siarad

How are you long time no speak.

You can generally get lasting snows from september onwards going by what I've heard however seldome do they occur before october. I think last years were later than most years.

[firefly]

Thank you very much for the replies, it has helped me understand better.

I was wondering if fresh snowfall around September/October in the Scottish mountains if possible would actually stick in to the rest of winter rather than thaw?

One last thing, again may sound silly but do you expect some snow patches to survive in to this winter? (I'm thinking yes?)

No problem.

In 2008, lasting snow arrived at Garbh Choire Mor (Braeriach) on 1st October.

I would expect only a couple of patches to survive this year, so it's not a silly question! Actually, it's a very good one!

Are there any patches that don't get any direct sunlight?

Not really sure. I would hazard a guess that of all the long-lying patches, Aonach Beag gets the least. A study would be needed.

You can generally get lasting snows from september onwards going by what I've heard however seldome do they occur before october. I think last years were later than most years.

See above comment on 2008!

[firefly]

Believe it or not, the first snows have arrived on the summit of the highest Cairngorms. This picture is from Sunday, where the snow fell to about 1100m. Courtesy of Stuart Gordon.

[Cymro]

Believe it or not, the first snows have arrived on the summit of the highest Cairngorms. This picture is from Sunday, where the snow fell to about 1100m. Courtesy of Stuart Gordon.

That's very believable, even the metoffice had snow forecast for the region, However, this snow is unlikely to be lasting snow but I suppose its a step in the right direction and if so lasting snow could come very early this year.

[stewfox]

That's very believable, even the metoffice had snow forecast for the region, However, this snow is unlikely to be lasting snow but I suppose its a step in the right direction and if so lasting snow could come very early this year.

Is it still there ?

[firefly]

Is it still there ?

No!

August snows are ephemeral, and the chances are it disappeared that day. Interestingly, though, a chap I know was up on a remaining snow-patch from last winter (this photograph) and he said the evidence of the snow-fall could still be seen on the old snow, but not the rocks. Obviously the colder snow preserving it.

On a more unusual note, how about this for bonkers... Skiing in Scotland in early September?

[Cymro]

No!

August snows are ephemeral, and the chances are it disappeared that day. Interestingly, though, a chap I know was up on a remaining snow-patch from last winter (this photograph) and he said the evidence of the snow-fall could still be seen on the old snow, but not the rocks. Obviously the colder snow preserving it.

On a more unusual note, how about this for bonkers... Skiing in Scotland in early September?

Surly by sking on that their decreasing it's life and chances of surviving, as to breaking up the hard packed snow?

[spindrift1980]

Apart from ski-ing, I've sometimes wondered whether the number of snow-holes which are dug by winter training course participants and other walkers in certain locations in the Cairngorms, like Ciste Mhearaid, diminishes the longevity of the snow there by taking away snow and letting air circulate amongst it? Perhaps by the time it gets down to the stage where the snow is in patches, it isn't really a factor?

[Cymro]

I personally believe for nature conservational reasons they shouldnt allow skking on the snow patches or snow hole diggin from mid april till december.

[firefly]

Apart from ski-ing, I've sometimes wondered whether the number of snow-holes which are dug by winter training course participants and other walkers in certain locations in the Cairngorms, like Ciste Mhearaid, diminishes the longevity of the snow there by taking away snow and letting air circulate amongst it? Perhaps by the time it gets down to the stage where the snow is in patches, it isn't really a factor?

Very, very unlikely to make any material difference.

I personally believe for nature conservational reasons they shouldnt allow skking on the snow patches or snow hole diggin from mid april till december.

Interesting theory. What nature conservation reasons did you mean specifically?

[Cymro]

Very, very unlikely to make any material difference.

Interesting theory. What nature conservation reasons did you mean specifically?

Well for example the Cairgorms in particular host the only population of Arctic Hares in most of Northern europe, these creatures are white and b enefit by being camouflaged by the snow and also depend on it. There are also many tundra species of flora in the cairgorms not seen anywhere this far south of the arctic circle, surly by increasing the chances of snow survival you are only increasing the chances this special fauna and flora has to survive?. Snow patches have the ability to cool a greater area than the actual size of them, which in turn will help all that i've mentioned above.

[firefly]

Well for example the Cairgorms in particular host the only population of Arctic Hares in most of Northern europe, these creatures are white and benefit by being camouflaged by the snow and also depend on it.

I assume you mean mountain hares (Lepus timidus) as opposed to Arctic hares (Lepus arcticus)? The Cairngorms are not the only range of hills in Britain that support a population of them. I've seen them as far south as Ben Lomond, and in fact you can see them as far south as the Peak District in England. The Wikipedia article stating Arctic hares are present in Scotland is inaccurate.

There are also many tundra species of flora in the cairgorms not seen anywhere this far south of the arctic circle, surly by increasing the chances of snow survival you are only increasing the chances this special fauna and flora has to survive?. Snow patches have the ability to cool a greater area than the actual size of them, which in turn will help all that i've mentioned above.

I assume the fauna to which you refer is the mountain hare? I can't imagine that a few snow-holes will make any difference to the likelihood of survival of even one mountain hare. It's true that there are rare mosses and liverworts that exist around and underneath the long-lying snow patches, but the snow-holes will make virtually no difference to their longevity.

[Cymro]

I assume you mean mountain hares (Lepus timidus) as opposed to Arctic hares (Lepus arcticus)? The Cairngorms are not the only range of hills in Britain that support a population of them. I've seen them as far south as Ben Lomond, and in fact you can see them as far south as the Peak District in England. The Wikipedia article stating Arctic hares are present in Scotland is inaccurate.

I assume the fauna to which you refer is the mountain hare? I can't imagine that a few snow-holes will make any difference to the likelihood of survival of even one mountain hare. It's true that there are rare mosses and liverworts that exist around and underneath the long-lying snow patches, but the snow-holes will make virtually no difference to their longevity.

All information reffers to Mountain hares however I have heard that there are arctic hares in the Cairngorms.

http://magazine.naturspot.de/text/arctic-hare.html

http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/11791/0

And I remeber watching a programm on the Arctic hares in the Cairngorm mountain ranges.

Also the reindeer although manned by people they are the only roaming reindeer in the Uk and relatively south thereore any snow loss will impact upon them. Scottish/British Wildcat feast on arctic hares in which if they decease this will afect the ever lessening population of the British Wildcat etc.

Edited September 6, 2010 by adamjones416

[osmposm]

Well for example the Cairgorms in particular host the only population of Arctic Hares in most of Northern europe, these creatures are white and b enefit by being camouflaged by the snow and also depend on it. There are also many tundra species of flora in the cairgorms not seen anywhere this far south of the arctic circle, surly by increasing the chances of snow survival you are only increasing the chances this special fauna and flora has to survive?. Snow patches have the ability to cool a greater area than the actual size of them, which in turn will help all that i've mentioned above.

Some confusion here - unsurprising since the Arctic Hare (L. arcticus) is closely related to the Mountain Hare (L. timidus), and is still considered by some authorities to be a subspecies of it (see http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/41274/0 ). To confuse matters still further, the name 'Arctic Hare' is sometimes used as an alternative name for the Mountain Hare.

But Firefly is right in saying that it is only L. timidus (correctly the Mountain Hare) that is found in Scotland, and that it is also found elsewhere in the north of the British Isles - most notably a subspecies in N. Ireland. L. arcticus is only found in Canada & its islands north of the treeline, and in Greenland. Most populations of L. timidus are stable and often abundant, and they are found throughout the north of Eurasia from Britain to Scandinavia to Siberia, and also further south in the Alps. They do not appear to be endangered (or anywhere near it) in Scotland.

The most important point, though, is that the presence or absence of snow is entirely irrelevant to their wellbeing, as they only have a white coat when there is snow present. They happily survive much of the year throughout their range with a brown or grey coat, and in Ireland - where they do not compete with the absent European Brown Hare (L. europaeus) - they largely live by choice at lower levels, and never acquire a white coat at all.

I cannot speak with any knowledge of other fauna, or the rare arctic flora of the Cairngorms - a strange and tenuous hangover from the last ice age. I suspect that a bit of skiing on odd remaining snow patches is of very minor significance when compared with the issues of a warming climate (allegedly - don't want to argue!), and less consistent snow retention at high altitude. An interesting article here, though, from 2006: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/ecocatastrophe-the-cairngorms-426485.html .

But on reflection, Adam, I think your point about possible benefits in leaving the summer snow patches alone - especially if they are becoming rarer and frailer - is worth considering and indeed researching.

[Cymro]

Some confusion here - unsurprising since the Arctic Hare (L. arcticus) is closely related to the Mountain Hare (L. timidus), and is still considered by some authorities to be a subspecies of it (see http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/41274/0 ). To confuse matters still further, the name 'Arctic Hare' is sometimes used as an alternative name for the Mountain Hare.

But Firefly is right in saying that it is only L. timidus (correctly the Mountain Hare) that is found in Scotland, and that it is also found elsewhere in the north of the British Isles - most notably a subspecies in N. Ireland. L. arcticus is only found in Canada & its islands north of the treeline, and in Greenland. Most populations of L. timidus are stable and often abundant, and they are found throughout the north of Eurasia from Britain to Scandinavia to Siberia, and also further south in the Alps. They do not appear to be endangered (or anywhere near it) in Scotland.

The most important point, though, is that the presence or absence of snow is entirely irrelevant to their wellbeing, as they only have a white coat when there is snow present. They happily survive much of the year throughout their range with a brown or grey coat, and in Ireland - where they do not compete with the absent European Brown Hare (L. europaeus) - they largely live by choice at lower levels, and never acquire a white coat at all.

I cannot speak with any knowledge of other fauna, or the rare arctic flora of the Cairngorms - a strange and tenuous hangover from the last ice age. I suspect that a bit of skiing on odd remaining snow patches is of very minor significance when compared with the issues of a warming climate (allegedly - don't want to argue!), and less consistent snow retention at high altitude. An interesting article here, though, from 2006: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/ecocatastrophe-the-cairngorms-426485.html .

But on reflection, Adam, I think your point about possible benefits in leaving the summer snow patches alone - especially if they are becoming rarer and frailer - is worth considering and indeed researching.

Yes you are quite right, I did some reading up after the comment from firefly and he is indeed correct. Mountain hare's and the arctic hare is by some considered a subspecies. There for my argument there is void I suppose. But regardless I still think it's important that the mountains retain snow and sanctions should be put in place.

[firefly]

Down to the real nitty-gritty now in terms of remaining snow! Single figures of snow patches now, and it'll be touch-and-go to see what survives and what doesn't. I'm still of the opinion that we'll only get one or two this year, but it really wouldn't surprise me if they all vanish..

This picture of Ciste Mhearad is from today, and shows one of only 5 remaining patches on the Cairngorms. Note the fresh lying snow around the location. Quite likely to be a reasonable dusting on the summit of Cairn Gorm and Ben Macdui, not to mention Ben Nevis. The other snow-patches that are extant are: Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach (3-off), Coire Mor, Ben Macdui (1-off), Ben Nevis (2-off), Aonach Beag (1-off). There's an outside chance that Aonach Mor is still holding on to its snow at protalus, but I'd wager on it being gone.

[Paul T]

I think that patch may just make it....