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Those Tantalising Black Holes


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Posted
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
  • Weather Preferences: Continental type climate with lots of sunshine with occasional storm
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France

Just watched a series of programs which were broadcast Monday night, concerning Stephen Hawkins, black holes and the Big Bang which I find to be a fascinating subject, though completely ignorant of the maths involved.

Apparently Stephen Hawkins postulated the theory some 30 years ago and devised a formula to support that all matter going into a Black Hole is irrecoverably lost and that as time goes by the universe is losing matter, paradoxically though it is expanding at the same time.

This theory was not accepted in all quarters since it went against the concept that energy or matter cannot be destroyed, though it can change its form.

An American scientist argued that information relating to the matter was not lost but retained on the event horizon.

Now Stephen Hawkins say that his original theory was not totally correct and brings a multiverse, some with black holes and others without, or at any rate not in corresponding positions, into the picture but we are waiting to hear more details.

I find it difficult to believe that the entire universe evolved from a single singularity without any external force, though I accept that massive suns can collapse to a point of singularity when they die and form black holes.

Now I have always thought that the idea of parallel universes was feasible and wonder in fact that different universes interact with each other. For instance it could have been such an interaction which brought the big bang into existence in the first place and secondly if we accept that matter cannot be destroyed when it goes into a black hole, is it possible that it could emerge into a parallel universe?

Now I have only a little brain, which although I can think of questions, I have nowhere near the intellect or the expertise to come up with any real answers and would appreciate any other opinions, at any rate it would make a fascinating subject to explore.

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Posted
  • Location: Rugby, Warks
  • Weather Preferences: Dangerous
  • Location: Rugby, Warks

It is a fascinating subject, probably the most fascinating subject, as physicists attempt to put together a theory of everything.

The fact that you would get a set of completely different answers to your question from leading physicists around the world just goes to show how little we know (despite our advances in recent times).

For what it's worth, and i'm no physicist just a someone with a keen interest, I don't subscribe to the parallel universe theory. The idea that there are an infinite number of replicas of us accounting for every single possible outcome of a given event is ridiculous in my opinion. I'm warming a little to the multiverse theory, although still not totally convinced. I could see our universe acting as a satellite (on a much grander scale), as we know satellites are part of the make up of objects in our universe on all scales.

The Hubble Space Telescope has paved the way for a greater knowledge of the universe, a magnificent piece of engineering. I just hope it's successor, The James Webb Space Telescope, isn't scrapped as it it promises an exciting new era of understanding.

Edited by Supercell
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It is a fascinating subject, probably the most fascinating subject, as physicists attempt to put together a theory of everything.

The fact that you would get a set of completely different answers to your question from leading physicists around the world just goes to show how little we know (despite our advances in recent times).

For what it's worth, and i'm no physicist just a someone with a keen interest, I don't subscribe to the parallel universe theory. The idea that there are an infinite number of replicas of us accounting for every single possible outcome of a given event is ridiculous in my opinion. I'm warming a little to the multiverse theory, although still not totally convinced. I could see our universe acting as a satellite (on a much grander scale), as we know satellites are part of the make up of objects in our universe on all scales.

The Hubble Space Telescope has paved the way for a greater knowledge of the universe, a magnificent piece of engineering. I just hope it's successor, The James Webb Space Telescope, isn't scrapped as it it promises an exciting new era of understanding.

I am not saying that in parallel universes that there are replicas of us all with difference outcomes on history etc - I think that is just science fiction but thinking more of other universes in the physical sense. Will expound a little more on this later but a bit pushed for time at the moment.

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Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

I am not saying that in parallel universes that there are replicas of us all with difference outcomes on history etc - I think that is just science fiction but thinking more of other universes in the physical sense. Will expound a little more on this later but a bit pushed for time at the moment.

Good point.....I think Supercell was alluding to the 'many worlds' multiverse theory, which I'm not convinced about.....I'm more convinced by the 'infinite hubble volume' hypothosis.....I'll post more later, as I'm off to work!

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Posted
  • Location: Rugby, Warks
  • Weather Preferences: Dangerous
  • Location: Rugby, Warks

I'm always on space.com, the beeb science section and other sites looking for interesting new theories and findings.

Check this out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14372387 . Potential evidence of a multiverse through further examination of WMAP data. This had been alluded to before, but it seems cosmologists / physicists are taking it more seriously now. Exciting stuff.

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Parallel universes, multi-verses (whatever term is given to them), dimensions in excess of the 4 we know about are things which I have been thinking about for years.

One thing which struck me a long time ago was the construction of an atom with its nucleus and electrons whizzing around that just like a miniature solar system.

What struck me was that at normal temperatures there was an awful lot of empty space inside an atom, so it seemed that things which appeared solid were not as solid as they seemed. The difference in size between say an average sized star and a neutron star (of the same original dimensions) illustrates this.

The idea occurred to me that things appeared to be solid because there was a particular resonance involved which gave the physical world this nature of being solid. Then I wondered about the possibility of having other objects of a different resonance and whether one could pass through the other.

I don’t think it is totally far fetched because there are wavelengths of light and sound which are beyond our human perception, as it is with these so it may be with different objects resonating on a different frequency. Even inhabiting the same time and space, in fact it could be a whole universe. We don’t know about them yet because we are yet to invent a machine to detect them. This is what I have started to think of as a parallel universe, which is a term I use, not to be confused with the theories of eminent cosmologists and mathematicians.

Also theoretically there are more dimensions in excess to our normal 4.

As more information became available regarding black holes, I had to accept Einstein at face value because no way could I understand the maths involved, though I could understand what was being said in laymans’ terms.

I always felt that all this matter which was being sucked in to end up at a point of singularity had to end up somewhere. Like many others I could not envisage matter being totally destroyed and wondered perhaps whether it would end up in a parallel universe.

At the same time we were hearing of the theory of the “Big Bangâ€. It took a long while for me to accept this but eventually found the evidence persuasive. But then it appeared that this was a “Black Hole†happening in reverse – a whole universe appearing from a point of singularity. I felt and still think that this would have needed a trigger to set it off, so enter the parallel universe again – some interaction between one and the other.

Well that is just about as far as I have been able to get in my musings at the moment, except to say, I wonder if this also holds the key to “dark matterâ€.

Since I have been thinking of these matters scientists are coming up with the idea that there are more universes than just the one we perceive and that there are many more dimensions than what we perceive.

Who knows, if we were to be able to gather the information we may even find science and religion unified.

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Posted
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark
  • Location: Taasinge, Denmark

I am afraid this sort of thing seems to me more metaphysical than scientific. Mike, Mr Hawkins ideas surely cannot be classed as a theory as they haven't been tested, leaving them a hypothesis. Suppositions that cannot be tested surely belong to the metaphysical rather than the scientific, don't they?

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I am afraid this sort of thing seems to me more metaphysical than scientific. Mike, Mr Hawkins ideas surely cannot be classed as a theory as they haven't been tested, leaving them a hypothesis. Suppositions that cannot be tested surely belong to the metaphysical rather than the scientific, don't they?

Alan, I'm afraid I can't agree with you in this respect and I am sure that the scientists making studies into these fields would not be happy to hear that their work is described as metaphysical as opposed to being scientific - for any advancements to be made there has to be an idea in the first, after which it is tested, ideally by physical means but in this case where it is impossible, by the use of measurements and mathematics, then as the evidence mounts it can be considered whether such an idea or theory is feasible. And again sometimes to make some really advancement it is necessary to think outside the box and go against the thinking of the day.

If ideas were never put forward in the first place we could still in danger of falling off the edge of a flat Earth.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
  • Location: Powys Mid Wales borders.
  • Location: Powys Mid Wales borders.

So many unexplained things out there BLACK HOLES always being the original starting point always made me think it would lead to a parallel universe or something like that or a worm hole,and with dark matter,dark energy and dark flow come unto the scene in the last few years.

It`s enough to make anyone think,dark matter surrounds everything and goes through everyone.

Dark matter/dark energy which is 95% controls the universe going by science.

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So many unexplained things out there BLACK HOLES always being the original starting point always made me think it would lead to a parallel universe or something like that or a worm hole,and with dark matter,dark energy and dark flow come unto the scene in the last few years.

It`s enough to make anyone think,dark matter surrounds everything and goes through everyone.

Dark matter/dark energy which is 95% controls the universe going by science.

When you think about it, it just goes to show how little we know; hopefully in the next few years with a new generation of telescopes and space telescopes we will be able to delve back in time near the edge of the known universe and accelerators will increase our understanding of particles and quantum physics.

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  • 8 months later...
Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

For me, this comes as no surprise, being an advocate of M-theory & especially brane-world cosmology....dark matter does not exist, at least not in our 3D brane...Brane-world cosmology infers that that what we perceive as dark matter is simply the gravitational tug of matter in another 3D brane universe lurking very closely to ours seperated by a higher spatial dimension...It's hoped that this theory could well be tested in the not too distant future by testing Newtons theory of gravity (inverse square law) at the very small distances...The inverse square law in layman's terms states that the strength of gravity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source...If however experiments show that at the very small distances (approaching the planck length) that the strength of gravity is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance from the source, this will infer that that there are extra dimensions at the very small scale in turn inferring of a parallel universe very close to ours....If empirically verified, the mystery of dark matter could be solved once and for all....

Edited by ajpoolshark
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  • 4 months later...
Posted
  • Location: Powys Mid Wales borders.
  • Location: Powys Mid Wales borders.

"How small is our universe" tomorrow night at 9pm BBC2.

Studies which may lead to miniature black holes,multi dimensions and parallel universes.

Why they call them black,I don`t know,invisible they are to us.

Last week it was how large is our universe which I missed.

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Posted
  • Location: Heswall, Wirral
  • Weather Preferences: Summer: warm, humid, thundery. Winter: mild, stormy, some snow.
  • Location: Heswall, Wirral

I don't think black holes necessarily lead to other dimensions universes, etc etc, but I do believe that such belief that Black Holes might lead to such things is due to our lack of understanding of what is inside a black hole. Naturally with anything we don't understand, we will put forward the most fantasical, amazing theory to comfort ourselves. However perhaps I'm wrong and black holes are portals to other dimensions (though I doubt it).

On terra firma however, it would appear Black Holes have a job to do, and that job is to gather all the energy, to potentially restart other solar systems, through formation of successive stars (as they are re-cyclical).

If, however, strong theory, m-theory, was proven to be right, I suspect the outcome of that would be unchartered. If such a theory is proven then other things that we thought were complete hokum, could be associated with it.. that discovery would be daunting for man kind.

Alas I don't think we'll find it, and I am pretty sceptical about that.

Black Holes are vital for our well-being though it seems..

ps: a theory is something that hasn't been tested, but would not violate any laws or limits of physics, so obvious m-theory for example, works in perfect harmony with the maths describing the laws of physics, but is very difficult to prove..

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Posted
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
  • Weather Preferences: Continental type climate with lots of sunshine with occasional storm
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France

I don't think black holes necessarily lead to other dimensions universes, etc etc, but I do believe that such belief that Black Holes might lead to such things is due to our lack of understanding of what is inside a black hole. Naturally with anything we don't understand, we will put forward the most fantasical, amazing theory to comfort ourselves. However perhaps I'm wrong and black holes are portals to other dimensions (though I doubt it).

On terra firma however, it would appear Black Holes have a job to do, and that job is to gather all the energy, to potentially restart other solar systems, through formation of successive stars (as they are re-cyclical).

If, however, strong theory, m-theory, was proven to be right, I suspect the outcome of that would be unchartered. If such a theory is proven then other things that we thought were complete hokum, could be associated with it.. that discovery would be daunting for man kind.

Alas I don't think we'll find it, and I am pretty sceptical about that.

Black Holes are vital for our well-being though it seems..

ps: a theory is something that hasn't been tested, but would not violate any laws or limits of physics, so obvious m-theory for example, works in perfect harmony with the maths describing the laws of physics, but is very difficult to prove..

I keep an open mind on it all, though one thing is for certain and that is that we do not really know very much at all and there is so much more to discover - I just hope I can come back when some of these questions are being answered - ithis would be really fascinating.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.
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