Can We Control The Weather

[mike Meehan]

In today's Daily Express there was an article relating weather control:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/268429/Can-we-really-control-weather-

At frst sight it sounds like it could be great to control the weather as we would like it but I wonder what the side effects could be - the weather does not occur in isolated pockets of air but interacts widely, so in our attempts to control the weather in one particular place could result in unforeseen effects in another,

[Jane Louise]

No it would not be good to control the weather! Nature should not be intefered with!

[Roger J Smith]

Local weather control may already be possible on the scale of influencing precipitation, but to modify larger scale weather patterns would require two things not currently available:

1. a theoretical understanding of what forces produce weather systems, and

2. the technological means to interfere with those or create alternative sources of energy

From my research I would say there would have to be such mega-technological advances as creation of powerful gravitational waves, probably at some distance from the earth rather than somewhere in our atmosphere. While I could imagine this becoming feasible in the distant future, there would be a political aspect to this question requiring the co-operation of all or at least most nations affected by weather modification. If the modification improved the climates of all countries then I can't really see any dissent arising. A scheme that would for example reduce summer temperatures in hot, dry regions and add rainfall when most useful, would almost certainly meet with approval. I'm sure the people of Texas and Oklahoma would wish to see some means of changing their past summer's scorching drought to something closer to their normal summer weather.

I have no idea when such understanding and then technology might become available, but science tends to surge forward very quickly when new ideas are accepted. It could be as little as 30-50 years or it could be hundreds of years into the future. The current scientific consensus (widely disputed) about global warming might seem to be an incentive to search for such methods, but if that consensus were ever to change to global cooling on any large scale, the incentive would be that much greater, because while a warmer climate brings problems as well as some improvements, a colder climate in most cases threatens economic and social collapse.

[Alan Robinson]

The very idea is preposterous, and furthermore, repugnant. I wonder how Aldous Huxley and Eric Arthur Blair (alias Geroge Orwell) would have described it?

[Crepuscular Ray]

No we can't. We don't fully understand the mechanisms (or we'd have perfect forecasts - some hope) and so can't possibly hope to control them.

[Guest]

The very idea is preposterous, and furthermore, repugnant. I wonder how Aldous Huxley and Eric Arthur Blair (alias Geroge Orwell) would have described it?

They would have gone to the "feelies" to forget about it:)

[DAVID SNOW]

To control,no.

To influence,yes.

[Snowyowl9]

Let the weather do it`s own thing.

[ZONE 51]

British government urged to halt geo-engineering experiment.

(edited out some text, see link for full story)

..The group calls geo-engineering as “a proposal of large-scale technological 'patchwork' to deliberately manipulate the global climate”, says a press release issued Monday by the organization.

....According to the group's intelligence, British scientists are about to carry out tests on the necessary equipment to disseminate sulphur particles into the stratosphere, in preparation to conduct geo-engineering tests....have been engineering a giant hose, held by a huge balloon to the sky. The hose would be used to spray particles into the stratosphere in order to block sunlight....

http://intercontinen...ing-experiment/ - link to above quote.

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http://www.jungleapo...to-cool-planet/

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So all exciting and interesting stuff then? yes i think it is!

as when doing any new experiment without exactly knowing what the long term effects are to be then its a concern to what might happen, this is to cool out planet right? so combating a warming earth this way is an experiment for sure, and we cannot know the future effects on our atmosphere as its all a new test to see what happens. so what if it does cause weather systems to become more active because of the possible effects on the jet stream?

Field test by British academics have marked first step towards recreating an artificial volcano that would inject particles into the stratosphere and cool the planet

-there as it says in the quote-stratosphere-now this gets interesting, remember we watch the stratosphere warming in winter?exactly, so we can only wonder how this effects our weather. This experiment starting this october, and its meant to be in the UK somewhere.

[4wd]

The experiment appears to be using water not sulphur to test if it's even possible to do.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2011/7895.html

[Alan Robinson]

I'll not touch upon the moral aspect of tampering with the atmosphere without worldwide consensus, but maybe some chemistry boffin can help me here. We have had several decades of increasing regulation to prevent diesel engines pumping NOx and SOx into the atmosphere. It causes acid rain. Are these people serious?

[Coast]

'Artificial volcano' experiment

A bizarre "artificial volcano" experiment taking place at a disused Norfolk airfield next month could help save the planet from global warming. Scientists will attempt to pump water up a hose suspended one kilometre off the ground beneath a helium-filled balloon. The test will provide valuable data that could pave the way to a giant geoengineering project in decades to come. The long-term vision is to tether 20 kilometre-long pipes to balloons the size of Wembley stadium. Light-scattering particles would be pumped high into the atmosphere to reflect the sun's rays and cool the earth.

The effect would be similar to that of a volcanic eruption spewing out clouds of sulphate droplets which can have an impact on the climate. Dr Matt Watson, from the University of Bristol, who is leading the Spice (Stratospheric Particle Injection for Climate Engineering) project, said: "This is a controversial and potentially alarming subject. "We're going to try to pump tap water to a height of one kilometre through a pipe as a test of the technology." The test will take place on a disused airfield at Sculthorpe, north Norfolk, using a dirigible "blimp" balloon of the type commonly used to carry adverts or take photos. Dr Hugh Hunt, from Cambridge University, who will head the Sculthorpe test, said: "To pump water to one kilometre you need a pressure of 100 bar. When we start thinking about 20 kilometres we're talking about 4,000 bar of pressure."

http://www.google.co...51315925001169A

[summer blizzard]

I'll not touch upon the moral aspect of tampering with the atmosphere without worldwide consensus, but maybe some chemistry boffin can help me here. We have had several decades of increasing regulation to prevent diesel engines pumping NOx and SOx into the atmosphere. It causes acid rain. Are these people serious?

You are correct, while SO2 does reflect sunlight it is toxic and as such i doubt it will be enacted on a big enougth scale to cool the globe.

[Guest]

It sounds like the opening of Pandora's Box to me and likely to lead to many unwanted and unpredicted side effects.

[knocker]

There is nothing particularly new about this.

Since 1998 Lowell Wood and Edward Teller have been promoting aerosol spraying into the stratosphere as a simple and cheap counter to global warming. A fleet of 747s could do the job. Or, they suggest, the Earth's surface could be linked to the stratosphere by a I5-mile Kevlar tube not much wider than a garden hose and held in place by a high-altitude blimp. Sulphur pollution would be made on the ground and pumped to the top of the pipe.

There is a thread on geoengineering in the climate section.

[ZONE 51]

The jetstreams are located in the Tropopause layer as seen on the chart below-i have highlighted this.

Layers of the atmosphere

the Jetstream is found inbetween the Troposphere and the Stratosphere along the Tropopause

our jetstream runs west to east and affects our Atlantic storms, these very fast movements of air affect world weather, the jet streams move weather patterns around so they do not stay in one area, any effects on the streams would cause world weather patterns to change. there my words but heres the link to image.

http://www.worldweatherpost.com/2011/01/21/stratospheric-warmings-meteorologists-identify-cause-of-cold-and-warm-periods-during-winter/

This link is very interesting about stratospheric warmings, it gives an idea on how the stratosphere temperatures can affect our winters, so as the experiment is to cool this layer then we can only think of the effects!

After a sudden stratospheric warming, among other things the differences in pressure between the Icelandic Low and the Azores High are reduced. This pressure difference determines the prevailing wind direction for Central Europe and thus determines whether the European winter turns cold or warm. Thus, for example, the 2009/2010 winter was characterized by a highly disturbed polar vortex, and in many parts of the Northern Hemisphere there was a severe and snowy winter

http://www.wunderground.com/resources/climate/strato_cooling.asp

a little confused actually! anyone want to explain about above link as where meant to be cooling the layer to reduce gw?

The observed cooling of the upper atmosphere in recent decades is strong evidence that the warming at Earth's surface is due to human-emitted greenhouse gases.

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ok so the experiment is to cool the stratosphere this reducing global warming, thats good then! but means more snow for Europe . i think what it would do over many months is to slowly reduce global temperatures but this would affect the weather patterns-so a change for everyone, but how significant we cant know at this stage just only guess at what the outcome may be, my concern is for the Europe/UK weather patterns as this may lead to an increase in colder weather-which is fine if you want that to happen, but i do not want cooler summers, however i do like snow in winter. i have studied/researched that the stratosphere does affect the jetstreams so its going to do something! more snow! but anyway its all interesting stuff and im a bit confused on some things i find where ones thing says this and another says that! its really confusing.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Coast

[Alan Robinson]

This link is very interesting about stratospheric warmings, it gives an idea on how the stratosphere temperatures can affect our winters, so as the experiment is to cool this layer then we can only think of the effects!

Thanks for the link ESS, it explained so much I couldn't glean from the stratosphere watch thread on this forum. Put in simple terms too! No jargon.

its all interesting stuff and im a bit confused on some things i find where ones thing says this and another says that! its really confusing.

We tried to have a debate on that under Climate and Science, namely the climate science thread. It fizzled out due to lack of interest I think, or maybe the opinions stated ran contrary to the yay and nay camps in GW.

[Jane Louise]

How ridiculous is this? I find it very concerning and nature should not be intefered with! what are your views?

U.K. Researchers to Test "Artificial Volcano" for Geoengineering the Climate

An experiment starting next month in the U.K. will pump water one kilometer into the air to test a new climate-cooling method that eventually could deliver sunlight-reflective sulfate particles into the stratosphere

By Sarah Fecht September 14, 2011

Volcanic eruptions, like this one at Mount Pinatubo​ eruption in 1991, are known to have global cooling effects. In October, researchers will test a man-made volcano that might eventually be used as a temporary defense against the devastating effects of climate change. Image: Wikimedia Commons

Next month, researchers in the U.K. will start to pump water nearly a kilometer up into the atmosphere, by way of a suspended hose.

The experiment is the first major test of a piping system that could one day spew sulfate particles into the stratosphere at an altitude of 20 kilometers, supported by a stadium-size hydrogen balloon. The goal is geoengineering, or the "deliberate, large-scale manipulation of the planetary environment" in the words of the Royal Society of London, which provides scientific advice to policymakers. In this case, researchers are attempting to re-create the effects of volcanic eruptions to artificially cool Earth.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=uk-researchers-to-test-artificial-volcano-for-geoengineering-the-climate

[Methuselah]

It does sound rather like a load of tripe, to me, JL...I do hope it's not state-funded research.

Don't we get enough rain as it is?

[Jane Louise]

I must hasten to add, that I found this on another link.

Collaborating partners include researchers from the Universities of Bristol, Cambridge, Edinburgh and Oxford, along with Marshall Aerospace.

Explaining the scope of the SPICE project, Dr Matt Watson, from the University of Bristol, who is leading the project, said “SPICE is the first UK project aimed at providing some much-needed, evidence-based, knowledge about geoengineering technologies. The project itself is not carrying out geoengineering, just investigating the feasibility of doing so.”

So, it seems for now they are just investigating the feasibility of doing so..

Pete, I need more rain, but certainly not that way lol.

[toggerob]

I can only hope its ocean water, there's enough freshwater wasteage as it is currently without this farce of an 'experiment' wasting yet more. Personally I think laser-radius technology or ionospheric heating (yes HAARP) is the way forwards. The only problem being all 3 technologies still rely upon energy to convert energy, so there's still a tradeoff we'll have to overcome with physics somehow, rather than with technology.

[Alan Robinson]

Water, one kilometer into the air huh? Well, with a little insignificant rounding off, a pressure gauge at the bottom of the pipe (assuming the only pump is at the surface) will show 10 GPa when the pipe is full and the pump is stopped. That is some high pressure, and some fancy pipe that is to dangle underneath a balloon. And the goal is 20 km? They'll need 20 balloons harnessed together at 1 km stages, each with a booster pump. That means electric cables going up too, also to power the red aviation warning lights. It'll all have to be very stout stuff to anchor the thing down and withstand the drag of jet stream winds when they pass by too, none of your flimsy aeorplane technology stuff. Or maybe they expect lot to blow away every month or so, and have a plan to fly after it and tow it back where it belongs?

This all sounds like a pipe dream to me, or someone has mistaken Arthur C Clarke novels for sound engineering.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Alan Robinson

[Aaron]

If I could control the weather, Britain would be Baffin Island by now.

[Guest]

Well as far we are concerned in the British Isles, don't you think we could fill in the North Sea - this would have the effect of giving us a climate tending more towards a continental type - of course the excess water would have to go somewhere and would perhaps raise the general sea level by a cm or so, though not entirely sure of the maths on this one, unless we dredge the material up from off the continental shelf - shouldn't take more than a couple of hundred years at a steady rate.

It could give us the benefit of slightly warmer summers and slightly colder winters on average with extra land to accommodate our increasing population.

Edited September 15, 2011 by mike Meehan

[Guest]

Water, one kilometer into the air huh? Well, with a little insignificant rounding off, a pressure gauge at the bottom of the pipe (assuming the only pump is at the surface) will show 10 GPa when the pipe is full and the pump is stopped. That is some high pressure, and some fancy pipe that is to dangle underneath a balloon. And the goal is 20 km? They'll need 20 balloons harnessed together at 1 km stages, each with a booster pump. That means electric cables going up too, also to power the red aviation warning lights. It'll all have to be very stout stuff to anchor the thing down and withstand the drag of jet stream winds when they pass by too, none of your flimsy aeorplane technology stuff. Or maybe they expect lot to blow away every month or so, and have a plan to fly after it and tow it back where it belongs?

This all sounds like a pipe dream to me, or someone has mistaken Arthur C Clarke novels for sound engineering.

And how are we going to protect the solution from freezing in the pipes at say, -50C?