The Far North Of England Regional Discussion Thread - Part 2

[Thundery wintry showers]

Yesterday's event, though unusual, also shows that the "marginality" can arise at upper levels rather than at the surface. Temperatures at Cleadon were hardly marginal- starting off at 1.6C as the band came along, falling to -0.3C as the heavier precipitation hit, with dew points well below zero- under most circumstances this would easily mean lying snow (in my experience snow, if heavy, will usually settle if the air temperature is below 1.0C, and if dew points are low it can settle at higher temperatures than that). The marginality occurred aloft, presumably the temperature got up to 1 or 2C at some upper part of the atmosphere turning snow to rain/sleet which then re-froze giving ice pellets.

I remember someone reporting a temperature of 0.3C at around 1000ft which is consistent with the above.

[paul tall]

Yesterday's event, though unusual, also shows that the "marginality" can arise at upper levels rather than at the surface. Temperatures at Cleadon were hardly marginal- starting off at 1.6C as the band came along, falling to -0.3C as the heavier precipitation hit, with dew points well below zero- under most circumstances this would easily mean lying snow (in my experience snow, if heavy, will usually settle if the air temperature is below 1.0C, and if dew points are low it can settle at higher temperatures than that). The marginality occurred aloft, presumably the temperature got up to 1 or 2C at some upper part of the atmosphere turning snow to rain/sleet which then re-froze giving ice pellets.

I remember someone reporting a temperature of 0.3C at around 1000ft which is consistent with the above.

Just wondering why we got piles of snow Ian? It was never marginal here and even nearby places like Durham at similar altitude only got a fraction? Certainly quite an inversion though, Copley in Teesdale recorded a min of 0.6º, me -6.4º, a difference of 7 full degrees in 15 miles.

[damianslaw]

You are underestimating the strength of the February sun. The perfect time for long lasting snowcover off one event is December.

Yes the sun by Feb is much stronger than in December, but it is still relatively weak especially during the first half of the month. It is the amount of snow which determines how quickly it melts, along with air temp, level of saturation in the air, aspect/location - northerly and easterly facing areas retain snow much more than westerly and southerly area exposed to the snow and also if snow undergoes freeze thaw action it is much more difficult to shift.

Generally a 1-2 inch cover is easily eroded under the feb sun, but depths of more than 3 inches can easily stick under the sun with limited sublimation. Air temp has a major impact, snow can remain in tact with temps as high as 4 degrees provided the air remains dry - indicating low dewpoints and high lapse rates. The coming week is going to be a dry one in the main with continental air and limited maritime influence - dewpoints will remain low which will increase chances of snow staying. Certainly if there was a good 6 inches or more then the chance of snow staying would increase markedly. I remember the snow of early feb 1996 stuck around sheltered parts for most of the month - we did see 18 inches mind on that occasion.

If you look at the numbers of mornings with snow cover stats for many places - the average number of mornings with snow cover is far higher in Feb than it is in Dec - whilst this is indicative of snow being more likely in Feb than Dec it also proves snow does stick around in Feb, with lots of mornings with snow cover- Feb 1986 saw some places see snow staying on the ground all month, Feb 91 saw many places record a fortnight of snow cover..(admittedly the amount of snow then was far higher than yesterdays totals, but in feb 86 there was barely 2 inches).

I've known snow to stick around in sheltered parts all day well into March.

I do agree though the chances of very light snowfall sticking on the ground in Dec under a dry airstream is higher than in Feb - notice the emphasis on light snowfall, its a different case with mod/heavy falls.

When you say NE you mean Newcastle right?

[garylaverick]

I drove from Blackpool to Washington last night, setting off at 6pm and arriving at 9pm, so as you can imagine I sampled a lot of different conditions. In Weeton at blackpool there was freezing rain, setting off up the M6 it started to change to sleet and by the time I reached junction 35 it was full snow with 3 lanes down to 1 and about 3 inches at the side of the road.

Turning on to the A66 it became more sleet again, and Kirby Steven had ice pellets. For the vast majority of the A66 it was just ice pellets, causing no problems for driving. The remorse was hovering at 1c. The last 15 miles of the A66, just before scotch corner it was full snow again, with about 2 inches by the side of the road, causing difficult driving conditions again with a temp of-0.5c. This continued up the A1, going down to 1 lane, until just north of Hartlepool, where it all cleared up and not many signs of a proper snow at all. Then approaching Washington it was back to ice pellets with a thin covering when I arrived.

It seems us in Tyne and wear got a lot less than most places south of us, but no less than places along the A66.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Just wondering why we got piles of snow Ian? It was never marginal here and even nearby places like Durham at similar altitude only got a fraction? Certainly quite an inversion though, Copley in Teesdale recorded a min of 0.6º, me -6.4º, a difference of 7 full degrees in 15 miles.

I can only guess that the airmass at about 500 metres up was producing high enough temperatures above Tyne and Wear to give a sleety mix which then re-froze (hence mix of snowflakes and ice pellets) whereas above Newton Aycliffe it must have been cold enough for a large majority of it to stay as snow.

It was certainly less marginal at high altitudes the further south you were. Some good insights by Gary Laverick above- I had thought at one stage that Tyne and Wear had been in an icy microclimate yesterday but it sounds like it was hit and miss.

[NickR]

We got about 3cms here in Durham, but one feature was that the wind was so strong it is hard to judge level depth. It kept stripping our street clean! Here we didn't really have any freezing rain; it was just very light adn blowing about. It only seemed to get stronger when there was 10 mins of the front left! From my perspective the problem was one of intensity.

Still, managed to build 3 minisnowmen and have a snowball fight with the kids

[4wd]

It's interesting that now here with some height it's 5C and sunny, while Pickering just south of the moors is still on -1C which must be due to freezing fog.

It's not exactly calm either. Another illustration of layering effects which are often both more pronounced and more easily observed in winter with temperatures around freezing.

[Alex95]

Quite a variation of conditions around Newcastle this morning - my street is still quite bad with a good covering of snow and ice, whilst in Heaton and Byker there seemed to be just a slight dusting in the shade! Then between here and the coast there seemed to be around 3-4cm. All this is within a few miles of each other!

It's a lovely day though with the sun reflecting off the snow.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Most of the ice at Cleadon has now gone anyway with the temperature up at 6C- it'll be interesting to see if many of the areas that got snow still have much of it at the end of the day.

[Andy_]

Wow what a difference a day makes, Temp 7.5C, Dew 3C

V Slippery Ice as it melts

[Alex95]

Most of the ice at Cleadon has now gone anyway with the temperature up at 6C- it'll be interesting to see if many of the areas that got snow still have much of it at the end of the day.

It's 4C here but the snow in the shade doesn't look like its going to melt today.

[Andy_]

I probably should have taken more photos last night but was rather busy, whilst waiting for my mate to pick me up i took a photo of my wall encased in ice from the freezing rain.

Sadly my mate's back windscreen wiper snapped off because of the said freezing rain!

pic.twitter.com/9CVfulSd

[Snowstorm1]

Well still covering of snow round here in the side streets ; most melted in busy streets as expected I currently expect to record another snow cover day tomorrow.

[paul tall]

Snow cover has remained intact today despite the temperature getting up to 5.7º. Obviously there has been melting, most noticeably round trees, spots where the wind had stripped most of the snow anyway, the main road through town etc.

Edited February 5, 2012 by paul tall

[Snowstorm1]

Snow cover has remained intact today despite the temperature getting up to 5.7º. Obviously there has been melting, most noticeably round trees, spots where the wind had stripped most of the snow anyway, the main road through town etc.

Yup pretty same as here then

[paul tall]

Sounds like it though I think we had greater accumulations.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Comparing readings shows what a large difference extensive snow cover can make to overnight readings- Cleadon -0.6C, Newton Aycliffe -6.4C, despite a westerly breeze (normally Cleadon has similar minima to inland locations when there is a significant westerly component to the airflow). I think it's also the reason why Cleadon just scraped a mean below zero in December 2010 while Newton Aycliffe did not (the period 20th-26th December had a more extensive snow cover near the coast than inland and therefore temperatures dropped more at times near the coast).

[Snowstorm1]

Got down to -4.2C here at 6:05am as the daily minimum

[paul tall]

Comparing readings shows what a large difference extensive snow cover can make to overnight readings- Cleadon -0.6C, Newton Aycliffe -6.4C, despite a westerly breeze (normally Cleadon has similar minima to inland locations when there is a significant westerly component to the airflow). I think it's also the reason why Cleadon just scraped a mean below zero in December 2010 while Newton Aycliffe did not (the period 20th-26th December had a more extensive snow cover near the coast than inland and therefore temperatures dropped more at times near the coast).

You also need to take into account my erroneously high night time readings which I have long suspected to be around 0.5º to 1.0º warmer than reality, when comparing to other local stations of similar altitude. That has a small effect on my mean temperature.

By the way, part of the reason I think that my night time mins have not been dropping as low as they should was because my garden was very enclosed by very tall (taller than the house) trees. The other day, most of those trees saw their maker and disappeared to that great woodland in the sky - my garden is now very much more exposed on one side at least.

Obviously snow cover was the reason for the low temp last night, but I'm wondering what sort of min I would have recorded a week ago under the same conditions. I'll be interested to see what effect losing the line of very tall trees has on minimum temperatures going forward, also for summer maximums, as the very same trees kept the (screened) thermometer in almost permanent shade in summer.

[Cloud 10]

Slim chance of some wintry showers in costal regions overnight as a small low tracks down

the north sea.

Some decent cold uppers associated with it as well.

[Alex95]

Snow / ice cover mostly melted this afternoon, about 25% left. Nearly fell on the ice this morning though, it was the worst I've seen it for a couple of years!

[Snowstorm1]

Snow / ice cover mostly melted this afternoon, about 25% left. Nearly fell on the ice this morning though, it was the worst I've seen it for a couple of years!

yup melted here now Im gutted as it only had to last today a daft little rain shower finished it off this afternoon before then it was doing well too! Anyways thursday/friday more snow opportunities ?

[Freezing-Point]

Just reviewed all model output from the last couple of days and its not looking to hopeful for snow in the next couple of weeks. The Greenland High is looking less likely than what was predicted on Friday / Saturday. Someone please tell me I have made a mistake!

This could be one of the most snowless winters I can remember if we don't get a N'ly or NE'ly. Where has the good old Northerly Toppler gone? You could almost gaurantee decent snow cover from the showers coming off the coast from those. Although it did not last long at least they delivered.

[damianslaw]

I underestimated the amount of snow we saw on Saturday - in the end 12 cms, which is a preety decent amount, beating only just the largest total we saw last winter i.e. 10cms on the 4th December 2010.

Yesterday saw a gradual very slow thaw, the sun appeared just after lunchtime and surfaces exposed to it saw a melt. Due to lack of wind the trees still maintained some cover. Last night however saw cloud roll in from the atlantic and a very weak weather front produced some light drizzly stuff. As a result we did a more substantial thaw last night which enabled many surfaces exposed to the brilliant sun of today very quickly loose whatever snow they had.

Tonight we have very clear skies and a hard frost over the snow fields, which will consolidate the snow and turn it very icy making it now much harder to shift. My car park is about to become an ice rink again - third winter in succession and because it doesn't see the sun until later in the month it is going to take a major rise in temps to shift it.

The strength of the sun is beginning to show its hand - many southern aspects on the fells have been stripped bare of snow - despite the southern aspects receiving the most snow on Saturday. Still the fells look resplendent in the white stuff - true winter conditions, fingers crossed they stay like this for the coming weekend.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Some showers about at the moment, Cleadon has taken a "dry line" in between two showers (one to the NW, one to the SE) in the last half-hour, with a temperature of 1.0C, so presumably somewhere must be getting sleet or snow.