Snow Patches On Scottish Mountains

[Gavin Hannah]

Received a text from a mate not long ago, Says the was fresh snow on the nevis range. Tried to check the web cams but all I could see is cloud.

If the models go with the project cold spell, we could get some decent flurries on the peaks.

[firefly]

Received a text from a mate not long ago, Says the was fresh snow on the nevis range. Tried to check the web cams but all I could see is cloud.

If the models go with the project cold spell, we could get some decent flurries on the peaks.

Can you get your mate to email me and to confirm the particulars? This is very interesting, and would be excellent to have it confirmed? iainjamescameron@hotmail.com

Thanks!

[Gavin Hannah]

I will try.

I had another look, if there was any snow on the summits, I imagine it has disappeared during the day. Weather reports only showing rain, temps of around 3 - 6 deg.

Tomorrow looks more promising for snow flurries. A brief cold spell with 0 deg uppers on the 850 gfs charts.

Just found a tweet from Nevis range:

TheNevisRange First signs of winter ... it's sleeting on the summit ...

3 hours ago · reply · retweet · favorite

Edited August 29, 2012 by IBringTheHammer

[firefly]

Currently minus 0.9degC on top of Cairn Gorm, with a very cold NW wind gusting to 50mph. However, as yet no reports of fresh snow. The radar suggests that the showers falling are farther east. The question is: will we get a third year of August snow!

[firefly]

Confirmation received today that snow was falling down to 3600 feet on Cairn Gorm. Light flurries, but snow nonetheless. Winter's on the way!

[Gavin Hannah]

Hopefully, a Good omen.

[Mark Neal.]

Confirmation received today that snow was falling down to 3600 feet on Cairn Gorm. Light flurries, but snow nonetheless. Winter's on the way!

Good to hear snow actually has fallen, albeit flurries its snow none the less, what is the earliest you have known snow to fall in Scotland?

[stewfox]

Good to hear snow actually has fallen, albeit flurries its snow none the less, what is the earliest you have known snow to fall in Scotland?

January 1st... I guess ?.

It can snow any month in Scotland (on tops of mountains) although the above suggests its rarer in August then July

[Gavin Hannah]

I suppose , in summer, any system that brings in 0 deg uppers in the 850's has the potential for snow on the highest peaks.

I have head anecdotaly, that there was freak sea level snow in June many many years ago.

Edited August 30, 2012 by IBringTheHammer

[firefly]

Good to hear snow actually has fallen, albeit flurries its snow none the less, what is the earliest you have known snow to fall in Scotland?

Ah, but what is ‘early’? When does old season end and new season begin?! A contentious issue, and one I have pondered long and hard. My theory goes like this…

The mid-way point between the summer solstice and the equinox is the 6th August (based on 92 days between the 21st June and 21st September). It seems to me that it would be sensible to have a date where the 'old' season ends and the 'new' one starts. The longest run of dates in July and August without snow ever being known is 7-13th August and 21-27th August. It seems to me, therefore, that any snow before the 7th August could be classified as old season, and any that falls after the 13th is 'new'.

This is entirely arbitrary, though, and has no basis in science. However, it is neat and tidy!

[stewfox]

I suppose , in summer, any system that brings in 0 deg uppers in the 850's has the potential for snow on the highest peaks.

I have head anecdotaly, that there was freak sea level snow in June many many years ago.

Some records here from 2002 we have of course had October 2009 since then

http://www.dandantheweatherman.com/Bereklauw/latesnow.html

I assume as Firefly says August snow at the tops of the mountains in Scotland is rarer then July. why that is I dont know as average temps must be lower in August ?

[firefly]

I assume as Firefly says August snow at the tops of the mountains in Scotland is rarer then July. why that is I dont know as average temps must be lower in August ?

Don't forget ground temperature, stewfox. The ground temperature in August will be warmer than July, and snow falling on cooler ground will be more likely to stick. This is perhaps a reason why snow looks more visible in July, as it will tend to accumulate more readily.

[Mark Neal.]

Ah, but what is ‘early’? When does old season end and new season begin?! A contentious issue, and one I have pondered long and hard. My theory goes like this…

The mid-way point between the summer solstice and the equinox is the 6th August (based on 92 days between the 21st June and 21st September). It seems to me that it would be sensible to have a date where the 'old' season ends and the 'new' one starts. The longest run of dates in July and August without snow ever being known is 7-13th August and 21-27th August. It seems to me, therefore, that any snow before the 7th August could be classified as old season, and any that falls after the 13th is 'new'.

This is entirely arbitrary, though, and has no basis in science. However, it is neat and tidy!

No i mean, the earliest following summer... So anytime after August really..

[Northernlights]

Don't forget ground temperature, stewfox. The ground temperature in August will be warmer than July, and snow falling on cooler ground will be more likely to stick. This is perhaps a reason why snow looks more visible in July, as it will tend to accumulate more readily.

Anything to do with surrounding sea temperatures as they approach their peak?

[firefly]

I'm no meteorological expert, but I'd be surprised if this had any bearing on the matter. August falls, like most falls of snow, seem arbitrary and unpredictable. For sure, the falls of 2010 and 2011 (which was exceptional) were remarkable for their consistency (both on the 28th August). The fall yesterday was very slight and ephemeral by comparison. However, to link these events to sea temperature is beyond the scope of my expertise I'm afraid.

[johnholmes]

http://www.webcam-4insiders.com/de/Wetter-Kleine%20Scheidegg/1026-Kleine%20Scheidegg-Wetter.php

just to whet your appetites for winter, snow piccs in the Jungfrau region, this the train station at 6,700ft for the Jungfrau

[Gavin Hannah]

Just saw the first snow shower animation of the season on BBC weather report across the Highlands for Tuesday!!

[firefly]

Another update for all you chionophiles!

Saturday saw myself and Mark Atkinson take to the hills of the Cairngorms in search of the two most permanent snow patches in the British Isles. Garbh Choire Mor of Braeriach, as many of you will know by now, holds two patches named Sphinx and Pinnacles. These patches have disappeared on 5 times in the last 100 odd years. Last year it was a close-run thing, but this year looks much, much better.

To get to this location, the most isolated part of the Cairngorms, is not at all easy. Whichever way one approaches by, it's a minimum of about 12 miles round trip, and amongst very difficult terrain. However, the reward is all the more satisfying because of this.

General view from below

The Pinnacles patch was 35 metres long, and approximately 4-5 metres deep at its deepest. There was a layer of fresh snow on both patches, as you can see by its 'Daz white' look. The more observant amongst you will see the fresh sugar coating of snow on the cliffs behind.

Pinnacles in the foreground, with Sphinx at the back

Mark at Pinnacles Bergschrund

Sphinx patch was not as long, though quite a bit deeper overall. The total length was 24.8 metres and approximately 5 metres of depth.

Mark at Sphinx bergschrund

When we exited onto the summit plateau there was quite a bit of fresh stuff, particularly on the corrie rim. You can see a full suite of pictures here.

All-in-all, the prospect of these two patches surviving is very high.

[4wd]

I think September is the critical month and this year had been cool and dry-ish rather than mild/wet/windy as it can be.

I wonder if the current depression is going to give a quite serious snow cover higher up which will bury those gully patches completely.

[Polar Maritime]

Looks like Glencoe range has had a dusting last night.

[firefly]

Yes, and the Cairngorms too. The trend has been cool weather for the last 4 weeks or so, and I would imagine little in the way of significant melting of the remaining snow. Couple this with the additional snow that has fallen and it's a promising picture.

[Gavin Hannah]

Glencoe has held onto most of the the snow it got on the summit last night.

[Polar Maritime]

In the previous 67 years up to and including August 2009 Dr Adam Watson noted that lying snow had been recorded in the Cairngorms on 8 years. Lying August snow has now occurred in the Cairngorms for the third consecutive year with snow falling and lying on Ben Macdui on the 28th of August in both 2010 and 2011, plus of course 30th August this year. Simply remarkable and last year 4 days of lying snow in August was the most recorded in the past 69 years.

http://www.winterhig...d.info/general/

Edited October 5, 2012 by Polar Maritime

[firefly]

The snow to which you refer, PM, actually lasted for a total of 14 days. The four days you refer to (28-31 August 2011) were only part of the story. Such was the extent of the drifting from the NW that the snow persisted into the second week of September on Ben Macdui. Astonishing for snow falling in August. Normally it is ephemeral.

A very good example of the continued cool weather is demonstrated in Stuart Gordon's picture from yesterday, showing fresh snow on Braeriach. http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/file.php?2,file=8379

The eagle-eyed amongst you will spot the old snow in the picture: Sphinx and Pinnacles.

[spindrift1980]

I thought I would give this thread a bump since it now seems certain that 3 patches (and possibly a fourth) have survived in Garbh Coire Mor of Braeriach in the Cairngorms. Last year only the 'Sphinx' patch survived at this location (and it was much smaller) but this year the 'Pinnacles' patch has also survived, as has a smaller patch known as Michaelmas Fare. There is also a further small fourth patch which may survive but is vulnerable to any possible milder spell.

Photos, discussion and observations can be found here: http://www.winterhig...ad.php?2,143591

The main reasons for the greater persistence of snow this year are probably:

- more snowfall on westerly winds during winter/spring;

- more freeze/thaw cycles as compared to the colder winters of 2009/10 and 2010/11, thereby toughening up the old snow;

- lower temperatures and more snowfall during spring leading to a net gain rather than net loss of snow;

- a cool, wet summer.

The generally cold weather in September and October with sporadic light to moderate snow accumulations at altitude has also helped.

There are two surviving patches in the West Highlands, on Aonach Mor and in Observatory Gully of Ben Nevis, but due to the more maritime climate there it seems that survival is not yet assured there, although it seems fairly likely. I'm sure Firefly will be visiting these patches and will be along at some point to fill in details.

Edited October 18, 2012 by spindrift1980