Jump to content
Snow?
Local
Radar
Cold?
IGNORED

E.N.S.O. Discussion


Gray-Wolf

Recommended Posts

Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

Although the MEI is in a weak el Nino, the SOI is behaving in a la Nina type of way. Now I don't know why its doing it for whatever reason, but it is currently.

Trades near Australia are muting the westerly wind bursts. Since the El Nino is currently east based though the local regions are responding normally.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

The development of a potential EL Nino and +PDO has been remarkable but it looks like it's a potential bust, certainly for a basin wide El Nino. 

 

While Spring saw a quick transition from ~weak La Nina to El Nino across most of the basin since May the lack of westerly wind bursts and persistent +SOI numbers has been remarkable (indeed early July looks like seeing another +SOI burst). Because of this, while the spring saw a prounounced warming you can see from fig 1 that already the 3.4 region is loosing ground and indeed that contrast is stark (1.2 is 2.1C, 3.4 is 0.5). More notable however is Fig 2 which shows us the result of these lack of westerly wind bursts. Namely that -1C cold anomalies have developed at the sub-surface of the central region and will start surfacing in the west Pacific without a major movement towards a basin El Nino. Indeed in region 1.2 the surface continues to warm but the sub-surface anomolies are declining quite rapidly, from 6C to what will be no more than 3C by the end of July without progress.

 

In summary then it looks entirely possible (at least out to Mid July on modelling) that we have an event similar to 2012 whereby El Nino got off the ground and then stalled albeit more advanced. I expect MEI values to continue rising and probably the July value to be the peak unless we see major change however it's possible the NOAA won't ever declare this.

 

*Worth noting that basin wide or not, east based Nino's kill the hurricane season but do wonders for the US east coast in winter as they generate a persistent +PNA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fig 1

 

Posted Image

 

Fig 2

 

Posted Image

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Ireland, probably South Tipperary
  • Weather Preferences: Cold, Snow, Windstorms and Thunderstorms
  • Location: Ireland, probably South Tipperary

The development of a potential EL Nino and +PDO has been remarkable but it looks like it's a potential bust, certainly for a basin wide El Nino. 

 

While Spring saw a quick transition from ~weak La Nina to El Nino across most of the basin since May the lack of westerly wind bursts and persistent +SOI numbers has been remarkable (indeed early July looks like seeing another +SOI burst). Because of this, while the spring saw a prounounced warming you can see from fig 1 that already the 3.4 region is loosing ground and indeed that contrast is stark (1.2 is 2.1C, 3.4 is 0.5). More notable however is Fig 2 which shows us the result of these lack of westerly wind bursts. Namely that -1C cold anomalies have developed at the sub-surface of the central region and will start surfacing in the west Pacific without a major movement towards a basin El Nino. Indeed in region 1.2 the surface continues to warm but the sub-surface anomolies are declining quite rapidly, from 6C to what will be no more than 3C by the end of July without progress.

 

In summary then it looks entirely possible (at least out to Mid July on modelling) that we have an event similar to 2012 whereby El Nino got off the ground and then stalled albeit more advanced. I expect MEI values to continue rising and probably the July value to be the peak unless we see major change however it's possible the NOAA won't ever declare this.

 

*Worth noting that basin wide or not, east based Nino's kill the hurricane season but do wonders for the US east coast in winter as they generate a persistent +PNA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fig 1

 

Posted Image

 

Fig 2

 

Posted Image

 

 

Not disagreeing with you, SB, but a few additional points.

 

In the last week, there's been substantial warming across most of the ENSO region. The 3.4 anomaly is back into Nino territory and the 1 and 2 regions are at their warmest since 1998.

The WMO issued a statement, which you can read here. A few highlights:

 

There is a 60% likelihood of an El Niño being fully established between June and August, increasing to 75-80% for the October to December period, according to an El Niño Update issued by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO). 

 

One explanation for the lack of atmospheric response so far may be that the sea surface temperatures are above average across virtually the entire tropical Pacific, not just in the eastern and central portions. This may be maintaining west-to-east temperature differences more typical of neutral conditions. The far eastern tropical Pacific has already had higher than normal sea surface temperatures since May, causing above average rainfall along parts of the coast of equatorial South America. 

 
The latest outlooks suggest that central tropical Pacific Ocean surface temperatures are likely to warm further into the third quarter of 2014, while the atmospheric patterns associated with El Niño are also expected to form and strengthen. 
 
Consensus from models and expert opinion is that the event will reach peak strength during the fourth quarter and endure into the first few months of 2015 before dissipating. The substantially above-average oceanic heat content beneath the sea surface of the central and eastern tropical Pacific Ocean, triggered by strong westerly wind events earlier this year, suggested an event of significant strength. However, the delayed atmospheric response, and a potential lack of subsequent westerly wind events in the coming months, may limit the peak strength of the El Niño.
---------------------------------------------------------
 
The daily SOI values have also gone strongly negative over the last week/10 days, with the 30 day mean now down to 3. This trend is expected to continue to another few days at least.
 
Finally, while it does seem unlikely that we'll achieve full Nino status this summer, most models are suggesting renewed strong development in Autumn. Since early Spring, most of the monitoring agencies have had the Nino risk as low to medium for summer, increasing medium to high for Autumn.
Posted Image
 
Interesting times ahead anyway!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

 

Not disagreeing with you, SB, but a few additional points.

 

In the last week, there's been substantial warming across most of the ENSO region. The 3.4 anomaly is back into Nino territory and the 1 and 2 regions are at their warmest since 1998.

The WMO issued a statement, which you can read here. A few highlights:

 

There is a 60% likelihood of an El Niño being fully established between June and August, increasing to 75-80% for the October to December period, according to an El Niño Update issued by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO). 

 

One explanation for the lack of atmospheric response so far may be that the sea surface temperatures are above average across virtually the entire tropical Pacific, not just in the eastern and central portions. This may be maintaining west-to-east temperature differences more typical of neutral conditions. The far eastern tropical Pacific has already had higher than normal sea surface temperatures since May, causing above average rainfall along parts of the coast of equatorial South America. 

 
The latest outlooks suggest that central tropical Pacific Ocean surface temperatures are likely to warm further into the third quarter of 2014, while the atmospheric patterns associated with El Niño are also expected to form and strengthen. 
 
Consensus from models and expert opinion is that the event will reach peak strength during the fourth quarter and endure into the first few months of 2015 before dissipating. The substantially above-average oceanic heat content beneath the sea surface of the central and eastern tropical Pacific Ocean, triggered by strong westerly wind events earlier this year, suggested an event of significant strength. However, the delayed atmospheric response, and a potential lack of subsequent westerly wind events in the coming months, may limit the peak strength of the El Niño.
---------------------------------------------------------
 
The daily SOI values have also gone strongly negative over the last week/10 days, with the 30 day mean now down to 3. This trend is expected to continue to another few days at least.
 
Finally, while it does seem unlikely that we'll achieve full Nino status this summer, most models are suggesting renewed strong development in Autumn. Since early Spring, most of the monitoring agencies have had the Nino risk as low to medium for summer, increasing medium to high for Autumn.
Posted Image
 
Interesting times ahead anyway!

 

 

Ah yes, i should have mentioned that the last third of June has seen a -SOI which will promote warming however amazingly for a decent strength El Nino, the monthly reading is still neutral (and the first half of July looks like seeing +SOI).

 

I'm still wary about Q3 and Q4 seeing strengthening personally, the atmosphere is generally most conducive to El Nino in spring and summer, yet there's still no pronounced warming and actually heat content at the sub-surface is falling. 2010 and 2012 were notable busts for the models who were all going for continued development.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

Some more El Niño-like patterns emerge, but no El Niño yet.

 

Issued on Tuesday 1 July 2014 | Product Code IDCKGEWW00

 

While the tropical Pacific Ocean surface temperature is currently at levels typically associated with a weak El Niño, waters below the surface have cooled and atmospheric patterns continue to remain neutral.

 

However, over the past fortnight changes have occurred in the atmosphere that may be a response to the warm surface waters–the Southern Oscillation Index has dropped by over 10 points, and weakened trade winds have re-appeared. These changes would need to persist for several weeks in order for an El Niño to be considered established, and it remains possible they are simply related to shorter term weather variability.

 

Climate models surveyed by the Bureau continue to indicate that El Niño is likely to develop by spring 2014. The Bureau's ENSO Tracker remains at El Niño ALERT, indicating at least a 70% chance of El Niño developing in 2014.

 

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/

Edited by knocker
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

Some more El Niño-like patterns emerge, but no El Niño yet.

 

Issued on Tuesday 1 July 2014 | Product Code IDCKGEWW00

 

While the tropical Pacific Ocean surface temperature is currently at levels typically associated with a weak El Niño, waters below the surface have cooled and atmospheric patterns continue to remain neutral.

 

However, over the past fortnight changes have occurred in the atmosphere that may be a response to the warm surface waters–the Southern Oscillation Index has dropped by over 10 points, and weakened trade winds have re-appeared. These changes would need to persist for several weeks in order for an El Niño to be considered established, and it remains possible they are simply related to shorter term weather variability.

 

Climate models surveyed by the Bureau continue to indicate that El Niño is likely to develop by spring 2014. The Bureau's ENSO Tracker remains at El Niño ALERT, indicating at least a 70% chance of El Niño developing in 2014.

 

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/

 

SOI was indeed negative in this last third of July but is expected to be positive for the first third of July as a whole so baby steps preventing progress.

 

Here is a reflection of the problem since April..

 

Posted Image

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Crewe, Cheshire
  • Weather Preferences: Snow, storms and other extremes
  • Location: Crewe, Cheshire

So much for the 'super Nino' then? Gavin over on TWO has said in a video forecast that he can't foresee anything other than a moderate Nino at best now. Nature eh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

So much for the 'super Nino' then? Gavin over on TWO has said in a video forecast that he can't foresee anything other than a moderate Nino at best now. Nature eh.

 

The past week or so has seen 3.4 fall from 1 to 0.3 and 1.2 fall from 2.1 to 1.6. 

 

This is rapidly becoming a farce.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl

If el nino is to happen it'll probably be the same strength as 2009-10 at peak levels.

Combine that with declining solar activity and a negative QBO, and dare I say that excitement levels in here on the approach to winter 2014/15 may well be on the high side...

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Ireland, probably South Tipperary
  • Weather Preferences: Cold, Snow, Windstorms and Thunderstorms
  • Location: Ireland, probably South Tipperary

Lets not get ahead of ourselves in calling this a farce, just as some did is calling for a super El NIno.

 

I'll reiterate, El Nino was always favoured to form in late Summer and Autumn. Currently we have both the warm and cold Kelvin waves weakening, and so we are just waiting to something for give the system a push.

 

This may come in several forms. Firstly, there are a number of WPAC tropical systems forming and forecast to form, these are likely to stir things up and should be monitored. We also have had generally low level westerly anomalies in the WPAC over the last week, and the MJO is forecast to move into the Maritime Continent/West Pacific over the coming days. These things could well produce the next round of Westerly Wind Bursts needed for this fledgling El Nino to re-strengthen.

 

The SOI is still falling, and is back in negative territory, at -4.1 is the lowest it's been since early April.

 

 

While a super El NIno was always unlikely, I think it's still much too early to dismiss El Nino forming entirely.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

I agree we can't dismiss it entirely but I remain pessimistic regarding significant strengthening over and above a weak Nino officially. The stronger 1.2 region will probably allow a greater climate effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Darlington
  • Weather Preferences: Warm dry summers
  • Location: Darlington

El Nino weather phenomenon will strike this year, Met Office warns

 

The world is almost certain to be struck by the “El Nino†phenomenon this year, with the potential to induce “major climactic impacts†around the world, the Met Office has warned. India and Australia are likely to be hit the hardest but the fallout could also be felt in Britain, where the last El Nino event in 2009/10 contributed to the heavy snowfall in the UK that winter. The term El Nino relates to feedback between the atmosphere and ocean that occurs every two to seven years and can wreak havoc on the weather system, inflicting droughts and excessive rainfall across the world. “El Nino is associated with colder than average winters, but is only one of the players that determine the weather,†a Met Office spokesman said. This means that while the phenomenon increases the chance of a cold winter, and was found to have contributed to the freezing conditions across Northern Europe last time it struck, it was by no means certain that the UK would become blanketed in snow.

 

In a report that concludes the event is “probableâ€, the Met Office predicts that the worst effects of the El Nino will be felt in India, during the forthcoming three-month Monsoon season. “The risk of a poor monsoon is two to three times greater this year than normal. So far the progress of the Indian monsoon rains bears this out, with a late and weak start to the season with less than 50 per cent of normal rainfall in June over much of India,†a Met Office spokesman said. The prospect of a weak monsoon season has raised fears of low crop production and rising food prices.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/el-nino-weather-phenomenon-will-strike-this-year-met-office-warns-9577018.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Hoar Frost, Snow, Misty Autumn mornings
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL

Combine that with declining solar activity and a negative QBO, and dare I say that excitement levels in here on the approach to winter 2014/15 may well be on the high side...

 

I think we're still a couple of years from a significant decline in solar activity, but that's a topic for another thread I suppose...

 

The tone of the Independent article is that El Nino is a terrifying phenomenon that will wreak havoc with the weather, but I daresay those in drought-ridden Southern California would welcome it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Crewe, Cheshire
  • Weather Preferences: Snow, storms and other extremes
  • Location: Crewe, Cheshire

Combine that with declining solar activity and a negative QBO, and dare I say that excitement levels in here on the approach to winter 2014/15 may well be on the high side...

 

Not wanting to stray too far off topic but if the Nino stays around the moderate-weak category, we may have the chance of striking an interesting winter given the -QBO? We certainly deserve one after the shambles that was winter 13-14!

Edited by CreweCold
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Longden, Shropshire
  • Location: Longden, Shropshire

Not wanting to stray too far off topic but if the Nino stays around the moderate-weak category, we may have the chance of striking an interesting winter given the -QBO? We certainly deserve one after the shambles that was winter 13-14!

We also need the PDO to return to a negative state. However, next Winter cannot be any worse than 2013/14!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl

We also need the PDO to return to a negative state. However, next Winter cannot be any worse than 2013/14!

 

That would certainly help, although whilst not to the same extent it is worth noting we did briefly see a return to a +PDO index through Autumn 09.

 

 

 

Not wanting to stray too far off topic but if the Nino stays around the moderate-weak category, we may have the chance of striking an interesting winter given the -QBO? We certainly deserve one after the shambles that was winter 13-14!

 

Potentially, although of course it is a little naive of us to assume that matching index values will automatically equal similar conditions, especially when considering what while solar activity is rapidly declining, it will not be at the near-zero levels it was at during 09/10.

 

However for me the most encouraging signal heading in to the winter will be -QBO, given the role it plays in terms of zonal winds.

 

Of course all still a long way ahead of us yet :) but a fascinating one to start looking at, and a sure sign that last winter was this poor when we are already looking for any signal that might suggest something opposing this year.

 

SK

Edited by snowking
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Location: Netherlands

Combine that with declining solar activity and a negative QBO, and dare I say that excitement levels in here on the approach to winter 2014/15 may well be on the high side...

Number of sunspots is much higer now than back in 2010. http://solarham.net/averages.htm

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Exile from Argyll
  • Location: Exile from Argyll

Number of sunspots is much higer now than back in 2010. http://solarham.net/averages.htm

 

That will depend on how quickly the cycle declines. The attached table shows indices anticipated - not much difference between Dec'10 and projection for this coming winter.

 

Posted Image

 

This really shouldn't be in ENSO thread but I justify by thinking there may be a solar connection to the failure of the ocean and atmosphere coupling we have been seeing recently.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl

Number of sunspots is much higer now than back in 2010. http://solarham.net/averages.htm

Yep, as mentioned in my last post :)

 

Still a very low overall count though when compared with Cycle 23....it should also perhaps be noted that the two peaks of the double-peak cycle 24 co-incided with the winters of 2011/12 and 2013/14...two notably poor winters for NW Europe from a cold lovers perspective, but of course two instances does not a trend make.

 

Anyway, I feel that I am probably moving a little off topic here...

 

SK

Edited by snowking
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.

We are due another up-tick in Solar Activity this coming Winter, Even though we are in a decline (which may take some years..) Some of the largest flares have been detected during these times as history shows, So interesting times ahead.

 

Sunspot count is up to 179 today..

Edited by Polar Maritime
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl

We are due another up-tick in Solar Activity this coming Winter, Even though we are in a decline (which may take some years..) Some of the largest flares have been detected during these times as history shows, So interesting times ahead.

 

Sunspot count is up to 179 today..

 

Interesting to hear because most of the research I have read up until now has been based around a double-peak (as per the previous 4 cycles), and given that the cycle began in 2008 with an approx. 11 year life (though of course we should potentially heed warnings of an elongated cycle given the slump vs cycle 23 and previous such instances), by my estimates we are now beyond the expected maximum period, and en route to the minimum of circa 2019.

 

Do you have any further reading on this as to where the expectation for a further uptick has come from as I always like to get a rounded view of these things and up until now most of the literature ha suggested a downtick between now and 2019.

 

Thanks,

SK

 

P.S. - Sorry for taking things back off topic again, just a fascinating research area for climatology.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.

Hi SK, With following Dr Strongs info which I post in the Solar & Aurora thread, He seems pretty confident of an up-tick. Maybe not as high as the maximum double peak so far but this is open to question. A very reliable ex-NASA Solar Physicist. 

Edited by Polar Maritime
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: Windermere 120m asl
  • Location: Windermere 120m asl

El Nino weather phenomenon will strike this year, Met Office warns

 

The world is almost certain to be struck by the “El Nino†phenomenon this year, with the potential to induce “major climactic impacts†around the world, the Met Office has warned. India and Australia are likely to be hit the hardest but the fallout could also be felt in Britain, where the last El Nino event in 2009/10 contributed to the heavy snowfall in the UK that winter. The term El Nino relates to feedback between the atmosphere and ocean that occurs every two to seven years and can wreak havoc on the weather system, inflicting droughts and excessive rainfall across the world. “El Nino is associated with colder than average winters, but is only one of the players that determine the weather,†a Met Office spokesman said. This means that while the phenomenon increases the chance of a cold winter, and was found to have contributed to the freezing conditions across Northern Europe last time it struck, it was by no means certain that the UK would become blanketed in snow.

 

In a report that concludes the event is “probableâ€, the Met Office predicts that the worst effects of the El Nino will be felt in India, during the forthcoming three-month Monsoon season. “The risk of a poor monsoon is two to three times greater this year than normal. So far the progress of the Indian monsoon rains bears this out, with a late and weak start to the season with less than 50 per cent of normal rainfall in June over much of India,†a Met Office spokesman said. The prospect of a weak monsoon season has raised fears of low crop production and rising food prices.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/el-nino-weather-phenomenon-will-strike-this-year-met-office-warns-9577018.html

 

 

Mmm another poorly written and misleading statement by the Met office 'spokesman' - El Nino is associated with colder than average winters?... mmm not sure this is correct the super El Nino of 1997/1998 coincided with a notably mild snowless zonal winter.

 

As others have said, it is always a combination of factors which together increase the chances of a colder than average winter - not one single factor and certainly not ENSO.

 

I fear we will be reading a lot of headlines with such statements through the autumn.

 

Also my understanding the forecast is for a moderate El Nino at best - possibly a weak-moderate El Nino, certainly nothing on the scale of a major El Nino, if the case, then other factors such as PDO state, QBO state etc etc will no doubt have a far greater influence on winter patterns this year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted
  • Location: just south of Doncaster, Sth Yorks
  • Location: just south of Doncaster, Sth Yorks

Mmm another poorly written and misleading statement by the Met office 'spokesman' - El Nino is associated with colder than average winters?... mmm not sure this is correct the super El Nino of 1997/1998 coincided with a notably mild snowless zonal winter.

 

As others have said, it is always a combination of factors which together increase the chances of a colder than average winter - not one single factor and certainly not ENSO.

 

I fear we will be reading a lot of headlines with such statements through the autumn.

 

Also my understanding the forecast is for a moderate El Nino at best - possibly a weak-moderate El Nino, certainly nothing on the scale of a major El Nino, if the case, then other factors such as PDO state, QBO state etc etc will no doubt have a far greater influence on winter patterns this year.

 

That is IF the quote is correct, I will try the Met O site and see if there is anything. I posted the NOAA latest on ENSO in the model thread so will repost that in here shortly.

 

the only link for news releases by Met is this with no remark whatever about El nIno and any possible effects

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/news/releases/archive/2014

Having had personal experience of so called quotes I gave when working I would treat this one with some caution until we get an actual press release. They may do this as NOAA have released their latest ENSO output, see below

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_advisory/index.shtml

 

this suggests, one para copied below but see link for full release

Over the last month, no significant change was evident in the model forecasts of ENSO, with the majority of models indicating El Niño onset within June-August and continuing into early 2015 (Fig. 6). The chance of a strong El Niño is not favored in any of the ensemble averages for Niño-3.4. At this time, the forecasters anticipate El Niño will peak at weak-to-moderate strength during the late fall and early winter (3-month values of the Niño-3.4 index between 0.5°C and 1.4°C). The chance of El Niño is about 70% during the Northern Hemisphere summer and is close to 80% during the fall and early winter (click CPC/IRI consensus forecast for the chance of each outcome).

 

I might add that journalists absolutely love to make 2+2 = anything but 4, their logic is beyond the understanding of most of us!

Maybe a touch unkind but having been bitten a number of times by the 'beast' it does give one a jaundiced view of journalism and its 'supposed' quotes.

Edited by johnholmes
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...