The Electric Car - saving the climate or just polluting in other ways?

[Sky Full]

I know I am not alone in wondering whether the electric car is going to be the salvation for our climate, not least because of the damage to the environment which is being widely caused by extraction of the minerals needed to build them.  The number and volume of rare metals needed to build an electric car far exceed that for a conventional car but these rare metals are also needed to build wind turbines and manufacture solar panels.  For example, (by one estimate) to satisfy the world’s increasing demand, the same volume of copper which has been mined by the human race since the metal was first discovered thousands of years ago will need to be extracted from the ground again in the next thirty years.  The worlds largest open cast copper mine in Chile (2 miles wide, half a mile deep) is having to dig deeper and deeper to find the ore but all the while the surrounding countryside is polluted by spoil and precious water resources are depleted.  But it’s not just copper.  Rare metals such as indium, gallium, germanium, selenium and tantalum are required not only to manufacture electric batteries and motors, but also wind turbines to produce the ‘green’ electricity.  These metals are produced in faraway places like China and processed in remote industrial complexes in places like Mongolia where we are not shown the enormous amount of pollution being created by the refinement of these metals. 

Clean energy's dirty secret: How push for modern technology has made Chinese pond toxic

NEWS.SKY.COM

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A tailings pond lies on the west of the Chinese city Baotou, one filled with a black grey sludge of toxic and radioactive material.

And they’re called ‘rare’ for a reason - they are not common in the earths crust and they will become increasingly difficult to extract as more and more electric vehicles are produced.  I doubt that these metals will be efficiently recycled at the end of every battery’s life and there may well be increasingly harmful pollution resulting from scrapped cars and batteries in the future.  If you are interested in this issue it’s worth watching this documentary:

The Dark Side of Green Energy

WWW.ALJAZEERA.COM

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As the world moves away from fossil fuels, we look at how greener energies are creating new environmental challenges.

So I believe that although petrol and diesel engines have a detrimental effect on our environment and our climate, electric cars may not be any better when we take account of the damage being caused to the worlds environment far from our own country.  In due course this headlong rush towards the use of electric cars will come back to bite us.

[ANYWEATHER]

Electric cars are not so called green. When you add it all together they are responsible for much more pollution and energy waste then a normal vehicle. They are not the way forward, although try telling that to the folks who have a vested financial interest in them!

[Puddy Galore]

Electric cars appear to me to be so expensive too unless I am imagining it?  Maybe reflects the rare metals used I guess.  My mini cooper coupe is 8 years old this September and the local mini dealership contact me every so often to see if I am looking to change my car.  Nope as (a) mine has only just under 15k on the clock and (b) they don’t make the coupe model anymore  They offered me a test drive in the electric mini but I didn't take the offer up and I’m probably ashamed to admit this but it was because I have driven a geared car now for 45 years and the thought of automatics worried me somewhat.  I wouldn’t know what to do with my left foot and hand

[jellybaby1969]

Despite the hype..the UK is saying a big no to electric cars...2 n 3 yr old electric car prices are dropping each month .CAP values on some Tesla's dropped be a few thousand last month alone. Poor infrastructure lack of continued government grants for charging points etc.......

[Sky Full]

The change to electric cars will not impact the enormous emissions from commercial vehicles, jet aircraft, diesel locomotives, and the huge worldwide fleet of commercial shipping which belches out its pollution far from the eyes of land lubbers.  There may well be a reduction in local air pollution in cities where electric cars become the majority but the manufacture of millions of electric engines and batteries will cause untold additional pollution in other countries where the mining of rare earth metals is carried out.   It’s not the answer to climate change, that’s for sure.

[Mixer 85]

Electric vehicles are way too expensive for the vast majority of working and middle class folk. They’re just another way to use taxpayer funds to subsidise toys for the wealthy.

EVs are a practical option for a few but they’ll never replace ice vehicles for the masses. When out and about, take note of streets in towns, cities and suburbs, lined with parked cars. Now imagine all these cars are electric and suddenly all these streets must be lined with charges. Imagine the infrastructure needed to lay heavy load copper cables. Imagine the drain on the already fragile grid. At which point we’re supposed to be primarily wind and solar. 
 

Currently the Uk is producing 78% of its energy demand of which 20% is from renewables, 40% fossil fuel so anyone charging their EV right now is putting over 40% “dirty” energy in their car.

 

Also let’s not forget the forced child labour in the cobalt mines in the Congo.

Battery Push By Tesla And Other EV Makers Raises Child Labor Concerns

WWW.FORBES.COM

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A new study finds that auto, battery and electronics firms are indirectly using cobalt sourced from unsafe artisanal mines in Congo that rely heavily on children doing...

 

[Alexis]

But that's like saying "how can we get copper wire, gas pipes, water pipes and electricity cables to every house in most of the world"? It's very doable.

Bear in mind that most streets already have the cables and lampposts, so it's not a big chore to install. It's just about who pays for it. We all pay line rental so that Openreach can plaster the country with cabinets and fibre cables.

Solar panels are the answer for a lot of people though. Panels on the roof and a storage battery in the garage and you're sorted. As with all these things, the rich will be the pioneers, and as costs come down the plebs can join in.

We've come so far down the electric road in the last decade I think it's inevitable that that is where we will end up.

As a result pollution will decline in cities - where the rich live - and rare metal extraction where the poor suffer will be dealt with at a later date. Sad, but again inevitable I think.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Alexis

[Alexis]

3 hours ago, Snowycat said:

Electric cars appear to me to be so expensive too unless I am imagining it?  Maybe reflects the rare metals used I guess.  My mini cooper coupe is 8 years old this September and the local mini dealership contact me every so often to see if I am looking to change my car.  Nope as (a) mine has only just under 15k on the clock and (b) they don’t make the coupe model anymore  They offered me a test drive in the electric mini but I didn't take the offer up and I’m probably ashamed to admit this but it was because I have driven a geared car now for 45 years and the thought of automatics worried me somewhat.  I wouldn’t know what to do with my left foot and hand

The electric Mini is actually a retrofitted petrol model. The battery is in a T shape so it fits inside the transmission tunnel.

You'd be better waiting for a proper electric version that was built from the ground up for electric propulsion.

[Puddy Galore]

1 hour ago, Alexis said:

The electric Mini is actually a retrofitted petrol model. The battery is in a T shape so it fits inside the transmission tunnel.

You'd be better waiting for a proper electric version that was built from the ground up for electric propulsion.

all over my head and will take a bow to superior knowledge so will wait as you suggest .  I’m a woman, not completely useless though as I can charge the battery and fill the windscreen water bottle .  It is likely to be another 2 years before I change the car so hopefully they will have sorted it by then? 

[moorlander]

I have no plans to pursue the EV trend now or in the future.

I can't see this or any other government getting their act together and driving forward with such a massive challenge.

No new ICE cars from 2030 is utter madness. I know plenty  who have stated that they intend on getting a new car in 2029 and keeping it for as long as they can. 

 

[JGreenwoodGolf]

battery disposal is very damaging for the environment. Whilst I believe they will be better in terms of air pollution, I think they're not the perfect solution by a long stretch

[Scuba steve]

Not keen on electric vehicles and will most likely order 2 cars for me and the wife  most likely petrol in 28 also will keep hold of my G wagon ,I see nothing but chaos from this ridiculous deadline which is unachievable 

[SnowBear]

We won't, and never will be able to provide enough electric on the grid to power all the vehicles currently on the road. 

ICE cars will eventually be phased out, or at the most become collectors/wealthy toys, oil will run out some time or become very expensive to produce, it is a finite commodity. 

In the future, whether that's 10, 20, 50 or 100 years from now, our forms of travel will change hugely, or perhaps more likely the distance we can travel, will be severely reduced due to fuel availability and cost. 

So in the future how can we expect to be able to travel around? 

Far more human powered vehicles such as bikes for local journeys with the return of local facilities. Schools will return to being for those children in the immediate area, more localised food stores, and maybe even the return of shops like butchers and grocers. 

The age of the commute to other towns will gradually disappear as it won't be affordable, for either the employee or employer, more local branches, and skilled staff being employed locally. 

For longer distance journeys you will either use a tram or perhaps an electric pool car which you hire to get to a train station, travel by train to your destination, then onward travel again by car or tram. 

Societal mindset right now says, "Oh no, I'm not doing that, I want my freedom, I want to do what I want", but I can see a time coming where you won't be able to unless you are extremely wealthy. There will be no choice. 

Electric cars themselves are not that efficient at the moment due to production cost (takes about 30 years of using green produced electric for them to become "green"), while we are using mixed energy sources they are in many ways just as bad as an ICE car. 

Regarding batteries, there is an interesting set of trials being done where you buy you car, but you subscribe to a battery supplier. The batteries fit a range of cars, think of AA batteries that fit all sorts of products. You would not need to wait for the car to charge, you would drive over a specially made platform, the spent battery is dropped down and replaced with a fully charged battery within minutes. The battery is always guaranteed to be good, and fully charged. As the battery is owned by the battery company they are responsible for disposal, or recycling the battery when it's at the end of its life cycle. Being as the rare earth metals can be reclaimed it means less needing to be mined. 

Hydrogen cars are out until we find the way to make green hydrogen all by renewable means, solar, wind etc and not produced using fossil fuels, (blue hydrogen). 

Whatever the solutions found in the next decade or so do not get away from the fact that I think in the longer term humans will have to get used to not travelling a where near as much as now. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by SnowBear

[ANYWEATHER]

The whole Ethos of electric vehicles is deeply concerning. Not only are they more polluting in the long run, from start to finish, where will all the electric come from? Petrol engines are so finely tuned today ,that they are really very clean, there's no such thing of zero pollution from man's activities!  Otherwise we will all have to stop breathing..!

[Midlands Ice Age]

2 hours ago, SnowBear said:

We won't, and never will be able to provide enough electric on the grid to power all the vehicles currently on the road. 

ICE cars will eventually be phased out, or at the most become collectors/wealthy toys, oil will run out some time or become very expensive to produce, it is a finite commodity. 

In the future, whether that's 10, 20, 50 or 100 years from now, our forms of travel will change hugely, or perhaps more likely the distance we can travel, will be severely reduced due to fuel availability and cost. 

So in the future how can we expect to be able to travel around? 

Far more human powered vehicles such as bikes for local journeys with the return of local facilities. Schools will return to being for those children in the immediate area, more localised food stores, and maybe even the return of shops like butchers and grocers. 

The age of the commute to other towns will gradually disappear as it won't be affordable, for either the employee or employer, more local branches, and skilled staff being employed locally. 

For longer distance journeys you will either use a tram or perhaps an electric pool car which you hire to get to a train station, travel by train to your destination, then onward travel again by car or tram. 

Societal mindset right now says, "Oh no, I'm not doing that, I want my freedom, I want to do what I want", but I can see a time coming where you won't be able to unless you are extremely wealthy. There will be no choice. 

Electric cars themselves are not that efficient at the moment due to production cost (takes about 30 years of using green produced electric for them to become "green"), while we are using mixed energy sources they are in many ways just as bad as an ICE car. 

Regarding batteries, there is an interesting set of trials being done where you buy you car, but you subscribe to a battery supplier. The batteries fit a range of cars, think of AA batteries that fit all sorts of products. You would not need to wait for the car to charge, you would drive over a specially made platform, the spent battery is dropped down and replaced with a fully charged battery within minutes. The battery is always guaranteed to be good, and fully charged. As the battery is owned by the battery company they are responsible for disposal, or recycling the battery when it's at the end of its life cycle. Being as the rare earth metals can be reclaimed it means less needing to be mined. 

Hydrogen cars are out until we find the way to make green hydrogen all by renewable means, solar, wind etc and not produced using fossil fuels, (blue hydrogen). 

Whatever the solutions found in the next decade or so do not get away from the fact that I think in the longer term humans will have to get used to not travelling a where near as much as now. 

Interesting post SnowBear.

What it basically says is that if we adopt this approach towards GW, then socially we will  have to move backwards about 100years as far as transportation is concerned..  (back to the 1930's - seen as the hey day for 'trains' in terms of its effect of people's lifestyle) 

One of the things we have all enjoyed as a society is the ability to have individual freedom of movement. You are suggesting that this will  no longer be the case in the future.

I agree with most of your post, particularly with regards to the difficulty in seeing a path forward which enables everyone to keep their current lifestyles, It requires a new major breakthrough in technology for it to be successful. We seem to be putting all our hopes on this approach of finding the ultimate breakthrough.

As Anyweather points out even using the current outlook technologies does not solve the problems of the lack (and/or difficulties in recovery of)  many of the rare metals.   

I do wonder whether we would  be better off in also developing new technologies which counteract the production of greenhouse gasses (amelioration) , much the same as we have been doing over the last 5-10 years.

OK, It will take a new revolution in technologies, but we do need that (as you point out above) in any new  direction we currently foresee as the way forward.

Perhaps,  rather than  a total  removal of the ICE we will  end up with a more balanced approach to both energy production alongside more socially acceptable forms of transportation.  At the moment we seem to think that solving the energy production problem will be the holy grail.

I am not as certain that it will be work from a society point of view.

MIA

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Midlands Ice Age

[Scuba steve]

2 hours ago, SnowBear said:

We won't, and never will be able to provide enough electric on the grid to power all the vehicles currently on the road. 

ICE cars will eventually be phased out, or at the most become collectors/wealthy toys, oil will run out some time or become very expensive to produce, it is a finite commodity. 

In the future, whether that's 10, 20, 50 or 100 years from now, our forms of travel will change hugely, or perhaps more likely the distance we can travel, will be severely reduced due to fuel availability and cost. 

So in the future how can we expect to be able to travel around? 

Far more human powered vehicles such as bikes for local journeys with the return of local facilities. Schools will return to being for those children in the immediate area, more localised food stores, and maybe even the return of shops like butchers and grocers. 

The age of the commute to other towns will gradually disappear as it won't be affordable, for either the employee or employer, more local branches, and skilled staff being employed locally. 

For longer distance journeys you will either use a tram or perhaps an electric pool car which you hire to get to a train station, travel by train to your destination, then onward travel again by car or tram. 

Societal mindset right now says, "Oh no, I'm not doing that, I want my freedom, I want to do what I want", but I can see a time coming where you won't be able to unless you are extremely wealthy. There will be no choice. 

Electric cars themselves are not that efficient at the moment due to production cost (takes about 30 years of using green produced electric for them to become "green"), while we are using mixed energy sources they are in many ways just as bad as an ICE car. 

Regarding batteries, there is an interesting set of trials being done where you buy you car, but you subscribe to a battery supplier. The batteries fit a range of cars, think of AA batteries that fit all sorts of products. You would not need to wait for the car to charge, you would drive over a specially made platform, the spent battery is dropped down and replaced with a fully charged battery within minutes. The battery is always guaranteed to be good, and fully charged. As the battery is owned by the battery company they are responsible for disposal, or recycling the battery when it's at the end of its life cycle. Being as the rare earth metals can be reclaimed it means less needing to be mined. 

Hydrogen cars are out until we find the way to make green hydrogen all by renewable means, solar, wind etc and not produced using fossil fuels, (blue hydrogen). 

Whatever the solutions found in the next decade or so do not get away from the fact that I think in the longer term humans will have to get used to not travelling a where near as much as now. 

Glad I won’t be around to see it sounds utterly miserable 

[jonboy]

On 12/02/2023 at 23:20, moorlander said:

I have no plans to pursue the EV trend now or in the future.

I can't see this or any other government getting their act together and driving forward with such a massive challenge.

No new ICE cars from 2030 is utter madness. I know plenty  who have stated that they intend on getting a new car in 2029 and keeping it for as long as they can. 

 

problem is come 2029 it is unlikely any petrol cars will be being made

[Methuselah]

2 minutes ago, jonboy said:

problem is come 2029 it is unlikely any petrol cars will be being made

It's time someone came up with wood-burning automobiles, Jonboy. But the wood must come from sustainable forests! 

Cough, splutter, wheeze! 

[ANYWEATHER]

23 hours ago, jonboy said:

problem is come 2029 it is unlikely any petrol cars will be being made

Come 2029 ,yes there will be petrol engines still being made..?I've been told....!

[jonboy]

4 minutes ago, ANYWEATHER said:

Come 2029 ,yes there will be petrol engines still being made..?I've been told....!

My information tells me the likes of Mercedes will phase out all non electric vehicles in the UK well before 2030 so if yo want something different you will have to buy outside the uk

[ANYWEATHER]

14 minutes ago, jonboy said:

My information tells me the likes of Mercedes will phase out all non electric vehicles in the UK well before 2030 so if yo want something different you will have to buy outside the uk

Hello Jon. Yes , but things are changing. They will change their protocol in response to the underwhelming sales of electric vehicles...

[Sky Full]

On 25/02/2023 at 10:18, Midlands Ice Age said:

…….

As Anyweather points out even using the current outlook technologies does not solve the problems of the lack (and/or difficulties in recovery of)  many of the rare metals.   

I do wonder whether we would  be better off in also developing new technologies which counteract the production of greenhouse gasses (amelioration) , much the same as we have been doing over the last 5-10 years

.…….

MIA

 

Any proposal to extend the use of electric motors to power every form of personal transport must solve the question of electric power generation without using fossil fuels.   There are already some alternative technologies available now which could, if developed with worldwide cooperation and investment, solve all our energy problems.  For a start we should look to the sun for energy in more ways than just solar panels.

“Solar energy is the most abundant energy resource on earth -- 173,000 terawatts of solar energy strikes the Earth continuously. That's more than 10,000 times the world's total energy use.”

Electricity is normally generated by steam driven turbines and it is the generation of steam without burning carbon which is our goal.  ‘Solar Power Towers’ might offer one solution if they were built in large enough numbers in the desert areas of the world where the sun ‘always shines’.   

Solar power tower - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

Since these desert areas are mostly located in poor and under-populated parts of the world the residents would benefit from the revenue and the world would receive almost free energy once the power stations were built.  The Middle Eastern oil producing countries could convert their income from oil to solar energy and the electricity generated could be distributed all over the world by means of a grid.   The sun is always shining in one desert or another around the world so power would be continuous.

Among other things we could also look towards tidal flow to power the turbines - the tides are free and continuous in every part of the world - and geothermal energy from the earths core.

Sadly I don’t think the human race is anywhere near ready to cooperate worldwide in order to solve these problems because there are far too many greedy and self-seeking people in power who prefer to go whichever route makes them the most money.  And even if the power problem can be solved, it still doesn’t overcome the need for the huge volume of rare metals and minerals required to produce electric motors, batteries and wiring.   That’s why I believe that the future could see hydrogen being used as our fuel of choice for transport once the means to produce it inexpensively from sea water has been discovered…..

[Midlands Ice Age]

7 hours ago, Sky Full said:

Any proposal to extend the use of electric motors to power every form of personal transport must solve the question of electric power generation without using fossil fuels.   There are already some alternative technologies available now which could, if developed with worldwide cooperation and investment, solve all our energy problems.  For a start we should look to the sun for energy in more ways than just solar panels.

“Solar energy is the most abundant energy resource on earth -- 173,000 terawatts of solar energy strikes the Earth continuously. That's more than 10,000 times the world's total energy use.”

Electricity is normally generated by steam driven turbines and it is the generation of steam without burning carbon which is our goal.  ‘Solar Power Towers’ might offer one solution if they were built in large enough numbers in the desert areas of the world where the sun ‘always shines’.   

Solar power tower - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

Since these desert areas are mostly located in poor and under-populated parts of the world the residents would benefit from the revenue and the world would receive almost free energy once the power stations were built.  The Middle Eastern oil producing countries could convert their income from oil to solar energy and the electricity generated could be distributed all over the world by means of a grid.   The sun is always shining in one desert or another around the world so power would be continuous.

Among other things we could also look towards tidal flow to power the turbines - the tides are free and continuous in every part of the world - and geothermal energy from the earths core.

Sadly I don’t think the human race is anywhere near ready to cooperate worldwide in order to solve these problems because there are far too many greedy and self-seeking people in power who prefer to go whichever route makes them the most money.  And even if the power problem can be solved, it still doesn’t overcome the need for the huge volume of rare metals and minerals required to produce electric motors, batteries and wiring.   That’s why I believe that the future could see hydrogen being used as our fuel of choice for transport once the means to produce it inexpensively from sea water has been discovered…..

Thanks for the response..

You suggest 3 different mechanisms which could be used to produce power.

Solar (I'll call direct Solar) - unlike what we have at the moment in the UK.

Solar however is still hemispherically constrained.  Perhaps a series of satellites would be a better objective.

Tidal - I notice its just started testing/production? in the Orkney's/Shetland.

and Hydrogen.

I will also add -    Wind.

The first 2 (and wind)  suffer from 'location dependency'  to produce regular ongoing power. eg we will be all right for Wind (mostly), and Tidal probably - but not Solar. This means that all countries will be dependent upon other countries for power supply at varying times, and I cannot see many people going for that sort of option,  particularly after what the Russians are attempting to do at present.  Some of the outstanding problems in some areas (eg power storage), will be improved. BUT I suspect that 'worldwide' available power will never be able to work from a political point of view. 

My understanding is that 'transport'  takes up about one third of energy usage currently. (be it fossil fuels or electrical power), and hence at todays transport usage rates Hydrogen cannot solve the more general energy problems of the world..

So to your last suggestion is indeed that of Hydrogen, for transport, which superficially sounds good.. However no one has yet produced hydrogen for less energy than it consumes in producing it. Also there is always the danger of traffic accidents - and these could be catastrophic - if  hydrogen is involved.  Also, always remember that splitting the highly stable H20 molecule ls not simple. Splitting Water is not an energy easy thing to do. Deuterium also comes under the category of 'rare' in terms of mass energy production if we try a shortcut. 

I still come back to Nuclear power as being the best option for energy production. It is where I feel we are closer to realising a real break through (be  it fusion or small-scale reactors).

Every country, I feel. will need to develop its own plan using a mixture of power production systems.

Any ideas of worldwide power sharing and usage and distribution for its inhabitants are 'pie in the sky', and even if possible will take longer to agree and sort out than we have apparently got available. 

I do believe that we should help underdeveloped countries (eg) , but again it will depend upon their location in terms of the best answer for  them. Each must be considered individually.

All in all without a major technology breakthrough we cannot consider worldwide energy, except perhaps in our day/night dreams,

MIA

Edited February 28, 2023 by Midlands Ice Age

[Sky Full]

31 minutes ago, Midlands Ice Age said:

Thanks for the response..

You suggest 3 different mechanisms which could be used to produce power.

Solar (I'll call direct Solar) - unlike what we have at the moment in the UK.

Solar however is still hemispherically constrained.  Perhaps a series of satellites would be a better objective.

Tidal - I notice its just started testing/production? in the Orkney's/Shetland.

and Hydrogen.

I will also add -    Wind.

The first 2 (and wind)  suffer from 'location dependency'  to produce regular ongoing power. eg we will be all right for Wind (mostly), and Tidal probably - but not Solar. This means that all countries will be dependent upon other countries for power supply at varying times, and I cannot see many people going for that sort of option,  particularly after what the Russians are attempting to do at present.  Some of the outstanding problems in some areas (eg power storage), will be improved. BUT I suspect that 'worldwide' available power will never be able to work from a political point of view. 

My understanding is that 'transport'  takes up about one third of energy usage currently. (be it fossil fuels or electrical power), and hence at todays transport usage rates Hydrogen cannot solve the more general energy problems of the world..

So to your last suggestion is indeed that of Hydrogen, for transport, which superficially sounds good.. However no one has yet produced hydrogen for less energy than it consumes in producing it. Also there is always the danger of traffic accidents - and these could be catastrophic - if  hydrogen is involved.  Also, always remember that splitting the highly stable H20 molecule ls not simple. Splitting Water is not an energy easy thing to do. Deuterium also comes under the category of 'rare' in terms of mass energy production if we try a shortcut. 

I still come back to Nuclear power as being the best option for energy production. It is where I feel we are closer to realising a real break through (be  it fusion or small-scale reactors).

Every country, I feel. will need to develop its own plan using a mixture of power production systems.

Any ideas of worldwide power sharing and usage and distribution for its inhabitants are 'pie in the sky', and even if possible will take longer to agree and sort out than we have apparently got available. 

I do believe that we should help underdeveloped countries (eg) , but again it will depend upon their location in terms of the best answer for  them. Each must be considered individually.

All in all without a major technology breakthrough we cannot consider worldwide energy, except perhaps in our day/night dreams,

MIA

Good post, MIA.  Thanks for your input.  It truly is a great pity that the whole world cannot come together and work to resolve the challenging climate issues which face the whole world.  WRT wind generation, I recently saw a program which showed spent wind turbine blades being buried just like landfill, rather than recycle the materials they are made from.  Might have been an anomaly but it shows what irresponsible behaviour we are capable of in the name of financial profit.

[Sky Full]

It seems that German car manufacturers have already started to resist the push towards all-electric cars….

Germany threatens to throw EU's electric car dream into reverse

WWW.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK

---

Veto threat leaves country looking like it is in thrall to its powerful automotive giants