firefly
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Posts posted by firefly
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so regarding snow patches would this be classed as a good year or a bad year?
Still too early to say. Certainly the Cairngorms have more remaining snow on them this year than for a good few years, but the recent warm weather (26 degrees in the north east a couple of days ago) really eats into the smaller patches at this time of the year, given that they're already small.
I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at how many patches will survive at this point. Nine last year, and if we get that then we'll be doing very, very well indeed.
Excellent report there, Firefly, with some cracking photo's. I've been following Scottish snow survival reports for the past 3 or 4 decades through various publications, and from a variety of observers, and your reports rank among the best of them.Well, thanks very much! Appreciated.
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To summarise would it appear that the patches in the Nevis range are somewhat smaller than last year and fewer look likely to survive? However those in the Cairngorms are at least as big as last year and it is possible more may make it through as well as the usual Garbh Coire on Braeriach.
Was there any feedback from the weekend of any patches remaining outwith the two main areas? Ben Alder for example?
Norrance, yes - that's about the size of it. Nevis area with fewer patches (and smaller) than last year (with the exception of Point 5 Gully), whilst the Cairngorms have more patches than this time last year, and - naturally - larger.
In terms of snow in other areas, the Ben Alder snow has all gone, but Geal Charn (beside Alder) has a few remaining, with one fairly large one still there. Will probably last 'til mid-September-ish.
Creag Meagaidh's Easy Gully still holding snow, but not a huge amount. Again, early-mid September will be a realistic final melt date for this patch.
I know of no other snow still remaining in Scotland. There may be a little in the Strathfarrar hills, but it's unlikely.
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Epic day on the hill yesterday! Met up with Dr Blair Fyffe (SAIS) at the North Face car park in the morning and then with coaster (Mark) at the deer fence, intent on getting up to the higher reaches of Observatory Gully to see how much snow was left.
Weather forecast was decent for the morning, but a nasty front was forecast to move across us at some point in the afternoon. Certainly the bike ride up from Glasgow in the morning was pleasant, although foggy in places.
Got the the CIC hut at around 10am, and that's where the slog started! Anyone who's ever been to the upper reaches of Observatory Gully will know how much effort is required to get there. We reached there around 11am and, I'm afraid to say, observed less snow than there was on the 6th September 2007 http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...155704/sizes/l/. Strangely, Point 5 Gully is holding more than last year, and Zero Gully still had a tiny remnant (which will be gone by the weekend), which disappeared on the 18th August 2007. I would have expected uniformity in these three patches, which are all very close together, but it seems that this is simply not the case. I have no reason why this is.
Having said that, the sheer depth of the main Observatory Gully patch is truly awe inspiring. Having Blair with us (a climber when he is not working for the SAIS!) gave us the confidence to go round the back of the patch and descend into the cliff face which the snow sat against. A conservative estimate of the depth of snow was 30-35ft, and probably closer to 50ft in the middle. The attached pictures tell their own story:
1) http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
2) http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
The main patch at Observatory Gully was (by consensus) 120 metres long by 40 metres wide, with an estimated depth (as stated) of around 12-15 metres. http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
Point 5 Gully was 40 metres long by 30 metres wide, with an estimated depth of around 5-6 metres. http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
Zero Gully patch was very small (we didn't visit it), and was no more than a few metres wide.
From there Mark, who had a come off a 12-hour nightshift(!), had other comittments and had to go home, whereas Blair decided that he'd like to come with me to Aonach Mor/Beag. I was relieved at this, as his knowledge of the area is excellent, as was his ability to pick a path around the base of the North East Buttress and up the Coire Leis headwall onto the Carn Mor Dearg Arete! http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/ He decided that it would be best not to attain the summit of CMD, but instead head "across country" around the mountain and pick up the bealach between CMD and Aonach Mor that way, even though he'd never been there before! Sure enough, his sniffer dog instict lead us neatly to the bealach and, after a quick chocolate bar, we climbed the remaining 1000-odd foot onto the summit of Aonach Mor.
I had arranged to meet up with a chap called David at Aonach Mor, who is making a film about snow patches in Scotland and wanted to film one, complete with interviews with guys (like me!) who go out and study these things. We met at the summit of Aonach Mor (after I had quickly photographed the Aonach Beag patch) and, with Blair's faultless advice, dropped from the summit down a mossy slope and around (from the south) into Coire an Lochain.
Three main patches were there, with the Pro Talus one being the largest (in terms of surface area), and the "main" one against the cliff face being the deepest. Again, the size of the patches is much reduced from last year, and I doubt very much whether any from Aonach Mor will make it past mid-October unless we have good early snowfall. A warm September will destroy these patches I feel, with none of them being especially large:
1) http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
2) http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
3) http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
4) http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
Pro Talus patch was (by consensus) 40 metres wide by 35 metres long. The main patch was, again, around 40 metres wide but tricky to measure the length due to the erratic nature of it.
Due to time constraints we didn't have the time to go to Aonach Beag, but this looked OK (though doubtlessly smaller than last year). It did look very deep from the ridge, and the photograph really doesn't do it justice. http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
Dropped back down to the gondola and took the easy option off the hill.
About 5600 ft of ascent and many miles covered, with a huge "thank you" to Blair for acting as unpaid guide!
The full set of photographs can be found here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57606917490804/
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A few piccies to keep you all amused. Taken over the course of the last week or so... :lol:
Hoping to get a good survey of the remaining snow this weekend, so will post any updates when I have suitable info to report back with. Brownie points to those who can guess where the pictures are from! Couple of easy ones (for those in the know), and a couple of not-so-easy ones...
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Any updates or more recent pics of this? <...>
Picture of Macdui from Cairngorm taken on the 8th August. The patch is the one on the right hand side of the screen. Still a considerable size, and deep. Certainly a possibility to make it through 'til the new snows of Winter.
Cooler conditions forecast for the remainder of the week, which helps enormously. August can be a very warm month, and (as July showed) can decimate snow-patches rapidly.
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Norrance,
Absolutely top drawer reporting! Alan Whicker would be proud!
I'll speak to someone regarding the hills NNW of Fort Augustus looking west, as I'm not au fait with that part of the world myself. I know a man that is, though.
Wonderful pictures of Braeriach/Macdui etc in this thread: http://www.scottishhills.com/html/modules....opic&t=3033
Garbh Coire Mor still wide and deep, and in better nick than last year by quite a distance.
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Any updates or more recent pics of this? could last all year id imagine. Would be good if it continued to last till winter and increase in size over coming years.
That's the Garbh Uisge Beag patch (I think, but I'm no Cairngorms expert), and that will still be a fair size. That patch did survive as recently as 2002, though it just made it by the skin of its teeth.
It seems to make no material difference to the next year's chances of survival whether the patches survive or not: there's just not sufficient volume of snow for that to happen.
Thanks for posting ZL - that's just reminded me of my wee trip at the weekend. Visited Grantown on Spey and on driving up the A9 I did a rubberneck to check out the top of Cairngorm. I counted 4 sizeable patches visible from the Aviemore bypass - impressive for the start of August.The biggest one'll be the patch in Coire an Lochainn, which is visible from the A9. The last time that particular patch made it through to the winter was 1994, though it did manage it a handful of times from the early 70s.
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Norrance,
It's telling me I have to be logged on to AOL to view this! In any event, if you are flying that route then I believe the only snow you will see is over the Nevis range (or possibly Loch Ericht area).
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It was hazy over to the West so could not make out the patch on Ben More.
Looks like Glencoe could soon be the furthest South West to have patches left.
It's still there, and (according to my source) fairly large. Fully one month+ longer than last year. Also, there is still a little on Ben Lawers and Beinn Heasgarnich. There may also be some on Ben Mhanach, but that's not confirmed.
Glencoe may have to wait a while to be the most southerly patches!
p.s. I have been given a rare opportunity to travel by helicopter from Aberfeldy in Perthshire to Stornoway in the first week of August. I don't know how much we can dictate the route and enable photos but given the general direction any ideas where to look out for snow patches, weather permitting.Certainly can! I think that by the first week in August the only patches left on the west coast will be in the Nevis area. That said, if you're flying from Aberfeldy then perhaps you could detour slightly over Ben Alder at Dalwhinnie? Geal Charn holds snow late, and I would imagine Ben Alder itself will still carry some. Also, Creag Meagaidh at Loch Laggan will almost certainly still be holding some.
Can I come?!!!!
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And this one looks pretty good: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/263664...b7a0ffe.jpg?v=0 Image in it winter full of snow!
Here it is on May 25th! Absolutely loaded with snow. I wouldn't like to guess at the depth in that corrie in late March-early April. Many tens of feet deep.
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Try this link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/
I can't edit my last post for some reason.
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Excellent tour of Aonach Beag and Aonach Mor yesterday to see the condition of the snows. Pretty much identical to 2007. Possibly a tad more than this time last year, but not much to choose.
Some of the gullies are choked with snow, preventing access down to the corries to get a proper look. Easy Gully on Aonach Mor and the goat track access on Aonach Beag are absolutely loaded (see images).
A picture of me not looking to pleased at access being barred is here
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Terrific tour of the high Cairngorms today doing a snow patch survey. Started at the car park and walked up into Coire an t-Sneachda. Up into Coire Domhain then round the back of Ben MacDui via Lochan Buidhe.
Then ventured onto the summit of MacDui (in thick mist) down into the snowy corrie and around Shelter Stone to above Hell's Lum. Then over by the Stag Rocks round the back of Cairn Gorm to Ciste Mhearad. Dropped back into the car park via the normal path down. Probably about 15-miles all told, and never below 3000-feet (save for the start and the end).
Some huge patches still around, and the snowy corrie on MacDui in very, very good nick. A slide show of the day's proceedings can be found here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...946767681/show/
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Britain's most southerly snow patch on Ben More (map ref NN432246) still holding firm. Was up there this morning and it's 103m long from tip to tail, though not great in depth.
I would imagine this would last to mid-July if the current weather continues. This is fully 1-month+ longer than 2007.
Temperature at 3600 feet was 7 celcius with a very chilly breeze blowing.
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Just a couple of points about the Weather article on 2007's snow patch survival:
The article itself is excellent up to the conclusions at the end, but the final statement that 2007 had the highest patch survival since 2001, and the second highest since 1996, is inaccurate. <...>
However, 1996 (0 patches) and 2001 (2) actually had very low snow patch retention
Yes, we are aware that there is an error with the report. An erratum will be inserted into next year's report.
It was the largest number since 2000, not 2001. The statement that it was the second largest since 1996 is correct. So the only error is saying 2001 when it should be 2000.
In a nut shell how do you define a snow patchI assume a dirty bit of snow from last winter , not a 3 day thing from a late June snow storm ?
Correct.
It is defined by a snow patch lasting through to the first (lasting) snows of the new winter
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My question would be is this all natural snow or partly man made? All natural. Lots of snowfall this year at Glencoe, hence the considerable depth in some sheltered gullies/aspects.
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Thanks Norrance.
I plan to visit Heasgarnich in late June, so I'll take some photos when I do.
I don't suppose you got any snaps of said patches did you?
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Fresh snow on the high Cairngorms this morning at 0900 hours. All but gone by 1015.
Reports of May's average temperature in Scotland being 2.4 degrees above normal: the highest since 1914.
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http://www.highland-instinct.co.uk/gallery...r200708/08jun6/
Late-season skiing in the Cairngorms! Wonderful weather to boot.
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Two photographs (courtesy of Alan Kimber) from Saturday at the top of Ben Nevis. Still sizable cornices and decent cover on the top of the hill.
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The current global warming discussions (complete with forecasts of doom-and-gloom from the media) may be a bit premature with regards to snow on Scottish mountains. Disappearing snows are not new.
People would have you believe that snow was abundant in years gone by on the high mountains of Scotland, but these two photographs from 1964 (28th September) of the two longest lying snow patches in Scotland (in historical terms) show that is simply not the case.
By-the-way, these patches both made it through 'til the new snows of winter (amazingly).
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Thanks skifreak...
By way of comparison, here's this year's cover at Glencoe compared to exactly the same time as last year. Shows you how much snow it caught this year. The last patch melted mid-July last year, so what odds this year lasting into August?!
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Any idea what the cover on the actaul plateau of the ben is like now?
Pictures (courtesty of Tarmachan Mountaineering) from Ben Nevis taken 25th May.
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Couple of good snaps from the weekend, showing a fair amount of snow still around in Glen Coe and Nevis.
First snap is of Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis. Second one is a view from Aonach Eagach over to Bidean nam Bian (courtesty of Alan Kimber).
Snow Patches Surviving on Scottish Mountains
in Spring Weather Discussion
Posted
Doesn't surprise me, but thanks. Coire an Lochain probably went at the weekend, which is the most visible patch from that side of the road.
Still lots of snow visible, though, at other sites in the Cairngorms and Nevis. I've attached a couple of photographs from Point 5 Gully and Observatory Gully that were taken a few days ago.