firefly
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Posts posted by firefly
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Once the Lomond and Glen Falloch patches go (and Beinn Bhuide near Loch Fyne - which still had some snow as of the 25th) then the southernmost patches will be on Ben More or Cruach Ardrain (Crianlarich).
It becomes more difficult after that, as the further north you go the harder it is to survey.
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As a sub question I would be interested in where the most Southerly surviving patches are in the UK.
Anyone any ideas?
Yup, I've a fair idea...
As of the 25th there was still a tiny patch on Ben Vorlich (see below) on the side of Loch Lomond. I suspect that there is still a tiny bit on Ben Lomond's north facing corrie, but I couldn't quite see it from the road side.
Merrick (in the Southern Uplands) still held snow well into May, but it'll have gone by now. Unless there are any patches lingering in sheltered areas of the Borders (which I doubt) then Loch Lomond-side is currently the place where Britain's most southerly patches are. I understand that there is nothing now left in Wales or England, though I haven't had this confirmed 100%.
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Further to this thread: http://www.netweather.tv/forum/index.php?showtopic=47770, I was lucky enough to get close to a pair of "courting" Ptarmigan on Sunday the 25th May. The male still had some winter plumage.
Enjoy!
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I'm surprised that as many as 9 survived last year, presumably the relatively cool summer and autumn, together with the westerliness of winter 2006/07, helped.
In my opinion, the greatest factor of last year was the sheer volume of snow that fell, particularly in the west. This year (if anything) is even better. I agree that there are many variables affecting snow patch survival, and none can guarantee survival on their own, but volume does go a long way. Obviously the more there is, the longer it takes to melt.
I was surprised to see last year a patch of 50-odd metres long on the 25th October! And that was at an altitude of 950m! Not high by Scottish standards.
Easy Gully looks rather tasty there!! Though the bottom set of photos is a bit off putting!Indeed!
A good skier could pick out a line to below 3000ft (from the 4000ft plateau summit), giving a lot of vertical descent in late May!
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Part II...
For all you lovers of extreme conditions in Britain, here are three photographs from Sunday (25th May) that show a very fresh avalanche (yes, in May) in Coire na Ceannain. It's hard to say when the avalanche happened, but it was likely to have been either that day or the day before.
Quite a lot of debris and scouring of the corrie headwall occurred in this one. Map reference of the avalanche is NN259751.
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Hi all,
Owing to the success of last year's thread, I wish to again post photographs and update all those interested in how many semi-perennial patches make it through to the first lasting snows of 2008.
Last year we had 9 survivals in total (3 on Ben Nevis, 3 in Garbh Coire Mor (Braeriach), 2 on Aonach Mor, and one (the largest of all) on Aonach Beag).
As it stands at the moment, the amount of snow lingering on Scottish mountains is still fairly impressive, with (as of 24th May) 1000-ft of vertical descent still possible from the back corries of Aonach Mor. There are also some fairly low-lying patches still extant, which - given the mild conditions in early May - is surprising. Some of the patches I saw on a trip on Sunday were barely above 2200-ft.
I would encourage all you hillwalkers to click merrily away if you're on the Scottish hills and to post any pictures of snow patches that you come across. This helps no-end when compiling reports at the season's end (I co-author the annual snow-patch report that appears in the Royal Meteorological Society's "Weather" magazine).
Here are some images from Sunday's sojourn into the hills (Grey Corries, near Fort William).
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Yes, the most snow patch survivals since 2001. Before that, 1994.
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By now the hollows containing last season's snow will have filled in sufficiently to protect it from loss. In the east, the lasting snows came on the 5th November (by our calculations). In the west, a couple of weeks later.
It has still to be confirmed for definite, but we expect 9 patches to have survived into winter 2007-2008. Three at Garbh Choire Mor (Braeriach), 3 at Nevis (Observatory Gully), two at Aonach Mor, and one (the largest, and the lowest in terms of altitude) at Aonach Beag.
This suggests that a lot more precipitation fell as snow above 3000-feet last winter in the west than hitherto had been thought. The fact that twice as many survived in the west (Nevis area) than the east (Cairngorms) would tend to support this.
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Yes, Firefly - the photos you've posted and your clear, detailed, consistently well-written reports have been a joy and hugely appreciated.
Thanks guys, I'm glad that there's been so much interest. I thought that I was the only saddo in town to be interested in this stuff, but there's been lots of people keeping watch on this and Winterhighland's thread to see what's happening.
By-the-way, I was up Aonach Mor on Friday to see if the patches were still there, as there have been reports that they'd gone. Glad to say that they've survived (actually it's only one patch that's split into two), though finding them in those attrocious conditions on Friday was a nightmare. I spent over an hour in the corrie looking for them. My search was hampered by new snow camouflaging the old; mist that was thicker than a pea-soup; and a GPS meter that gave up the ghost just when I needed it most.
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Great stuff. So how many patches have survived??? I'd imagine the Braeriach one would've survived too???
At the moment there are, I believe, 6. Three in Garbh Coire Mor (though 1 is tiny, and may already be gone), one each on Nevis, Aonach Mor & Aonach Beag. Actually there are two on Aonach Mor, but they were up 'til recently one patch: and they're very close together.
There's been a bit of drifting on the high Cairngorms of late, so the Garbh Coire Mor ones will be definite survivals. If the snow that's promised arrives on Monday then, assuming the Aonach Mor patches make it 'til then (they're very small), then that would make 5 definite survivals this year. More than there's been for a number of years.
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Against all the odds, Ben Nevis still holding snow from last season. Not much left, but we are now confident it will last through to the first lasting snows - whenever they come.
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Well, was up Aonach Mor & Beag today and I'm pleased to say that they're all hanging in there.
Aonach Beag is very, very impressive. It's still 53m x 26m x 4m and just beggars belief how such a low lying patch can be the largest in Scotland by quite a distance. The Aonach Mor patch (main one) is only half its size, and probably far less in volume.
There is a second Aonach Mor patch (well, a series of fragments) which contains a large(ish) piece which is almost invisible when viewed from below (it is obscured by a perfectly form Pro Tallus rampart, which in itself is highly impressive.
Unfortunately, my bleedin camera ran out of battery, so I had to make do with the phone camera. It does the job, I suppose.
Temperature at the top of Aonach Mor was 2.9c at 3.35pm, for anyone that's interested. The temperature at the Aonach Beag patch (3100 foot) was 5.4c.
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Thanks to coaster from Winterhighland for making the - frankly - horrendous trip up to 3700ft on Ben Nevis to photograph the last remaining snowpatch on that mountain.
With colder conditions forecast, I'm keeping my fingers crossed!
Thread can be found here.
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I haven't heard for a couple of weeks, but I'm 99% sure that Sphinx and Pinnacles patches are still there.
If they are, I suspect that makes the total number of snow patches still surviving as 6. Two at Garbh Coire, two at Aonach Mor, one at Aonach Beag and one on Nevis (Observatory Gully)
Of those 6, I fancy that the lower Aonach Mor patch and Nevis one are most at risk, though at this time of the year the level of melt will be very little, due to the cool temperatures and long nights. Also, there hasn't been a lot of rain over the last week.
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I wonder if it's possible to give a grid references for these various snow patches? I've got OS maps but I'm finding it difficult to figure out where patches are from pictures alone..
Gladly.
Aonach Mor - Pro Tallus snowpatch: NN193736 (altitude approx 1120 metres)
Aonach Beag - Bottom of north face summit cliffs: NN196718 (altitude approx 950 metres)
There was another on Aonach Beag (NN196716) just below the summit ridge the last time I was there (30th September), but since it was only 6m x 2m then I suspect it's gone.
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This recent mild spell will have put a dent in the patches, but I'm not sure how much will have been lost.
My gut feeling is that they will all still be there, and the cool weather that's forecast will help - as will the longer nights.
I'm guessing here, but I'm fairly sure that Aonach Mor, Aonach Beag, Ben Nevis and Garbh Coire in the Cairngorms will all still be holding snow.
I'm doing a survey on the 25th October, and will report back. Who knows, by then they could be buried under 5 feet of new snow!!
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Yes, the first picture is Ben Nevis north face. The other 3 are Aonach Beag.
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For all you snow lovers!
Nevis Range today to do a survey on any remaining patches. Ben Nevis, Aonach Mor and Aonach Beag all holding patches in excess of 25m long. The Aonach Beag one is particularly impressive as it is still over 10 feet deep at the eastern side. Not bad for a patch that sits at only 3100 feet (which is lower than Scaffell in the lake district).
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and dose any one know when the last time year round snow exsited??
I'm not sure what you mean be "year round" snow, but snow last endured through to the next year's snows in, if I remember correctly, 2001 (or was it 2002?!).
If, as I think you mean, when did snow last endure permanently, then that is more tricky to answer. There are historical references during the 18th and 19th centuries that suggest snow never disappeared from the north face, but this obviously can't be substantiated.
More recently, observations have shown that snow survives less often than it did. Having said that, this year's patches on the Ben are large, considering it is now well into September.
Did you take any photographs of them? I was up last week and the Observatory Gully patch was still very large.
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That I don't know, I'm afraid. Not my area (so to speak).
The most unusual snowfall I've so far encountered was a blizzard at sea level on the Isle of Iona on the 4th May 1997. The snow lay for only a couple of hours, though.
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There is anecdotal evidence that snow affected the A939 in the first days of August 1928, to the extent that it was blocked! I haven't been able to substantiate this, but it is from a credible source.
What is definite is that it (the A939) was "difficult" in 1976 during the second week of September. Above 3,000 feet in the Cairngorms snow lay 3 feet deep and gave good skiing for over a week, this was less than 2 weeks after the record hot spell of August 1976!
Blizzards in July, though rare, are not unknown. Skifreak (a contributor on here) has reported blizzards in July as recently as 1999.
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I was up the north face of Nevis today and the biggest patch I encountered (in Observatory Gully) was 120metres long and approx 50-60m wide. Its depth I estimate at around 10 feet in the middle. It was a very impressive sight actually, particularly for so late in the season.
Also, it was rock hard. I could hardly cut any steps into it, and since it was the full width of the gully, I had to try and go around it: not an easy task at 3800 foot in low cloud! Anyway, for those that want to see the patch (and hear me do daft commentary on it) then click on this link.
There were also patches at the bottom of Point 5 gully and in Coire na Ciste, in addition to ones higher up Observatory Gully. In all (on Nevis), perhaps 8-10 patches remaining?
I've also attached two photographs taken from Roy Bridge which show the Aonach Mor patches and one of the Aonach Beag ones.
As for other ones that are left, I'm not 100% sure. The Ciste Mhearaidh one in the Cairngorms will have all but melted by now. The Feith Buidhe and Garbh Uisge ones may still be there, but I haven't heard. Coire Domhain on MacDhui still holds one (though that won't last very much longer). Garbh Coire on Braeriach will, as ever, be doing best of all.
The last phot I saw showed the Sphinx and Pinnacles patches still conjoined (good sign), but this was from a week or so ago I think, so that may now have changed.
My guess is that if the weather cools for the second half of September and October is as cold as the models make out then we could be looking at about 4 or 5 survivals in total.
Here is my guess at this year's survivals (in order of likelihood): Garbh Coire, Observatory Gully, Aonach Beag and Aonach Mor.
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I have a feeling those won't last long...
Maybe not in terms of visibility from the camera, but the Observatory Gully patch has a fair chance I reckon. If, as has been suggested, the models showing the cool temperatures come to pass in September, and we get an early covering, then there is good chance we will have a good few survivals.
As recently as 2001 we had both Nevis and Aonach Beag seeing patches last through to the new snows on the west coast. The Aonach Beag one was even more remarkable as it lies at around 960m (if memory serves me right).
I believe that at present there are still sizable patches left on Nevis, Aonach Mor & Beag - as well as the usual supects on the Cairngorms.
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Still, I think we'll struggle to have more than about five snow patches remain. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say three patches will survive through to 2007/08, but as others have said, all hinges on the outcome of August and September, and maybe October if we get another warm one like the last two.
Hmmm, at the moment I'll say probably 2 (to be safe), and 4 (to be brave).
As I've said, the Garbh Coire Mor patch(es)* look in pretty good nick (compared to the last few years), so I'd be hopeful of their survival.
As for elsewhere, based on the reports I've had from various sources I'd say that Nevis stands as good a chance as it has done since the last few years (I think 2001 was the last time the NE face patch endured). Also, don't rule out the Aonach Beag patch which also survived 'til 2001. Garbh Uisge Beag on MacDhui seems to be holding out OK, too.
As a good outside bet, Aonach Mor (under the NE cliffs) is still in very good nick and had (as of the 2nd August) 400m x 50m patches!
If the snows do come early this year (I've a feeling they will) then watch out for Ciste Mhearaid as well. Still in good nick.
Fingers crossed!!
* - They will now have split in two.
Snow Patches Surviving on Scottish Mountains
in Spring Weather Discussion
Posted · Edited by firefly
The last time I saw snow in July on Ben More was (I think) 2001. It had disappeared by mid-June last year. My guess is that it will linger ‘til late June this year (barring a major thaw). I’ve got pictures from the 25th that I will post over the weekend of Ben More.
As for Glencoe, the ski area looks healthy (here) at moment, and I would expect that to last well into July (possibly late July?).
To make an educated guess at what might survive through until the new snows you really have to wait ‘til the end of August at least. So much can happen even in September that it is difficult to make accurate assessments.