firefly
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Posts posted by firefly
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Well nobody knows where you are? I take it Scotland
Originally, yes. However, as of 7 years ago, south of Hadrians Wall. Berkshire, in fact.
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So, what we are saying is that Scotland holds the record so far this year for the highest recorded temperature, AND it was in May? Exceptional, surely?
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Another week passes, and another week of cool temperatures and slow melting of the highest snow. The medium-range forecast for the high tops in Scotland shows no sign of improvement, with Cairn Gorm summit struggling to get above 3 degrees Celcius for much of the last few days. The Greenland high continues to influence the weather, dragging the rain farther south than is normal, leaving Scotland with little of the SW 'hairdriers' we would normally expect at this time of the year.
Compare the two photographs by Attila Kish of Garbh Choire Mor, Britain's snowiest place. The first one was taken on 6th July:Â http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowgeek70/7519235570/in/photostream
The second on the 19th June:Â http://www.flickr.com/photos/snowgeek70/7407052892/in/photostream/
A difference, of course, but not as much as you'd expect at this time of the year. Still a very significant depth there at present. Perhaps in the region of 10-15 metres at deepest.
Sorry for the lack of hyperlinks, but writing on an iPad in 37 Celcius Crete!
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Thanks all for your comments.
The snow this year is almost certainly going to be more robust than it has been for a number of years. During early season (December and January) there were some BIG storms from the west, which filled in a lot of the east and north east facing hollows that hold the longest lying snows. Nothing major about that, but interspersed between those storms we had a series of mild days, which consolidated the snow pack. In 2010 and to a certain extent 2011, the snow that fell in winter was not consolidated due to the run of cold, frosty weather. This type of snow tends to be fluffy and air-filled. It looks pretty on a picture, but when warm temperatures eventually do arrive then the snow vanishes like, er, snow off a dyke!
This year is not going to be a vintage one, nor particularly memorable one. However, I am reasonably confident that we will see at least a few survivals. If we do, that will be six winters on the trot that snow has survived to. After the complete melting of all snow in 1996, 2003 and 2006, few gave the prospect of semi permanent snow in Scotland much of a chance. As we've seen from the recent run of cool summer months, weather is a very fickle mistress.
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Greetings snow lovers...
With all this rain that's been falling, it's easy to forget that there are still large quantities of snow present on the hills north of Hadrian's Wall! We've been keeping an eye on things, and the prognosis for snow looks pretty reasonable in 2012. June's figures for Scotland will, I'm sure, show a reasonable 'below average' return for mean temperature and sunshine hours. The last few days have seen a warming up above 3000 feet, but as with May the first three quarters of if were cold and overcast. There have been a handful of days this month where fresh snow has fallen.
A recent picture of Braeriach's Garbh Choire Mor (the snowiest place in Britain) from 19th June shows how much snow is still present:
Garbh Choire Mor, 19th June (Attila Kish)
An isolated and difficult to reach mountain that I've never visited, and whose slopes have been known to hold snow 'til early September, Beinn Heasgarnich, I trudged up yesterday. I was rewarded with some reasonable sized snow-patches, the biggest of which was 46 metres wide and about 25 metres long.
I suspect that the snow in the photograph below (Creag Mhor) is the most southerly now in Britain. If I were a betting man I would say that the Cuidhe Chrom on Ben More has vanished, albeit only recently. I couldn't see it yesterday, but the cloud did obscure my view. The rest of the pictures are here.
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There is nearly always some significant snowfall in the scottish hills in May.
That's not strictly true. Whilst snow can be anticipated in May, the volume that fell in May was exceptional, and I believe that is what Inertius was referring to. Significant snow doesn't nearly always fall, but rather occasionally falls.
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June continues cool, and another day where the temperatures on Cairn Gorm are struggling to get above freezing. Doubtless it is snowing above around 3800 feet, and the rate of melt of existing snow will be reduced in the overcast, cool and relatively dry conditions. Also there seems to be little in the way of warm temperatures forecast, with unsettled weather set to continue.
The savage thaws that occurred in March and then late May have not exactly been reversed, but the continuing cool weather extends the lifespan of the patches very nicely.
Though I cannot be sure, as this photograph was taken 10 days ago, I suspect Britain's most southerly snow is a patch on Beinn Ime, roughly here.
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For all Royal Meteorological Society members, 2011's observations are now in Weather.
Cameron, I. Watson, A. Duncan, D. Two Scottish snow patches survive until winter 2011/2012. Weather 67, 162-164.
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A sprinkling of fresh snow this morning on the summit of Cairn Gorm, where the temperature has been below freezing for a day or so now.
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It's also probably worth mentioning that the snow that is left will have a tendency to be more resilient than previous summers. There were many freeze/thaw cycles over the winter, and this had the effect of toughening up the snow. For example, in 2010 there was a lot of snow on the hills, but because there were virtually no freeze/thaw cycles the snow was stripped rapidly when the thaw did eventually arrive.
Fluffy, air filled snow is removed far quicker than dense, compacted snow. We shall see!
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There will certainly be snow on the hills in September if the summer is 'average'. If we get a sustained warm or hot spell then that prediction will have to be revised!
To my eyes the current level of cover, at least on the Lochaber hills, looks similar to 2007. That year the summer proved to be cold and wet, and we had a survival at Aonach Mor that we haven't had since. I think that come the 1st July survey by Adam Watson and myself we'll have a better idea of the lie of the land.
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Early June seems like a good time to be starting the thread this year. It is likely that the heavy snows of winter are behind us, and from now on it'll probably be ephemeral summer snows that get the pulse quickening...
Winter 2011-2012 was a very mixed bag. Heavy snow fell in early December, and some big Atlantic storms deposited very large amounts of snow on NE facing aspects. In early 2012 I was very optimistic that this year was lining up to be a vintage one. How wrong could I be?! Notwithstanding a few large deposits in January, the rest of the winter was a huge disappointment. Hardly any meaningful snow fell in February, and March (the warmest in the UK since 1957, and a temperature of 23.6C at Aboyne in Aberdeenshire) all but ended my hopes of having any survivals of snow patches in Scotland past the end of September. However, April and May witnessed some very large deposits across the north east of Scotland. The extraordinary amounts that fell during the first two weeks of May allowed Cairn Gorm to re-open lift operated skiing, and to provide it right up until late May, when a savage thaw occurred during the very hot spell we had for a week.
The last snow in England vanished on the 18th May (located on Helvellyn, here). This wreath, present since December 2011, almost chalked up 6 calendar months. It consistently is the longest-lying patch in England, and is outlasted only sometimes by the other well known patch on the north side of Cross Fell, Pennines. As in 2010, snow persisted into May on the Peak District. However, this was a relic of April's snow.
On Wales, Carnedd Llewelyn held the last snow. This, however, was a remnant of 3-4 April's snow and not the snow from earlier in the winter. This finally vanished around the 19th May.
Thankfully, the beginning of June has seen a couple of days of sub-zero temperatures on the highest hills of Scotland, and fresh snow has been reported below 3000 feet on the 2nd June. Some big wreaths remain on the usual suspect hills, and if proof were needed of the depth of snow then Gary Hodgson's photograph (http://www.tarmachan.blogspot.co.uk/) from 1st June on Ben Nevis (at the Garadh) shows how much can be found if one is prepared to hoof up into the north east face!
I'll update this thread from time to time, but please feel free to contribute to this and the 'main' thread on Winterhighland: http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,143591
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Spindrift1980 is quite right when he says that the current level of cover in the Cairngorms is unusual even by the standards of the mid to late 20th century. Comparable years would be 1955, 1968 and 2010. Here's a link to the ski area at Cairn Gorm in May 1968, which is self-explanatory! I believe the level of cover there at present is similar, but I'm no expert on Cairn Gorm! http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/3490688193/in/set-72157617462340273
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The level of cover in the Cairngorms (where I am at present) is exceptional for mid-May. I was up at 3600 ft on Saturday and there were deep fresh drifts, normally associated with March than May. Skiing until June is virtually assured, and as I type more fresh snow has fallen on a westerly wind to the tune of about 6 inches. Very unusual indeed.
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Small snow patch still left on SW slope of Mickle Fell, Co Durham
Really? Any pictures? Must be a remnant of the snow that fell on the night of the 3rd/4th April.
And to me too. I look forward to Firefly's account of surviving snow each year. His accounts are as comprehensive as those which used to be published in the Journal of Meteorology in the 70s and 80s.
Too kind, TM! Given the level of interest and kind compliments then I will start one at the end of this month.
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Driving over the A9 at Slochd summit this afternoon (1200 ft) we encountered 1 Celcius and thick snow falling. Pretty surreal.
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Goodness, but it's been a while since I've been over here... Apologies for that!
The current weather across the Highlands as I type is remarkable. Snow is falling at a rate of knots seldom seen even in winter this year. By the time this moisture laden behemoth clears I expect we'll have seen a good top-up to the snow that fell in April and before. I don't know how much if any snow will be deposited south of Hardian's Wall, but I'll keep an eye on that.
Speaking of April, the snow that fell overnight on the 3rd-4th from the north east left BIG deposits all over the upland areas of Wales, northern England and Scotland. In particular, the Peak District had snow lying to around the 3rd May this year, near Shelf Moor. Contrary to what SnOwFeSt wrote in the post above, there aren't plenty of patches left in England. The snow he saw a couple of weeks ago was largely unconsolidated and shallow stuff that fell in April. Also, it fell from the wrong direction (north east). The pictures I've seen of the Lakes recently (couple of days ago) show snow free summits and gullies. The only hill I've seen snow on from the last few days in England is Helvellyn, at Brown Cove (the usual place).
Wales still has quite a bit on the high Carneddau and Snowdon peaks, which should last a wee while yet. A good trip report can be found here: http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21137 I suspect that this could go quite quickly, mind you. I'll keep my contacts primed to get their binoculars out!
April was a cold and wet month, hence the remarkable accumulations that fell. Cairngorm Mountain has re-opened for skiing, and after this latest storm are postulating that there'll be enough to keep them sliding until well into June. Remarkable, and similar to 1955. In this year, the maximum level of cover of snow in the Cairngorms was not recorded until late May.
This year has been a roller-coaster, and I suspect there'll be plenty more of the same. May is also shaping up to be pretty cool, with no mild weather in the pipeline. Mr Corbyn, derided as a bit of a fruit cake, might not be a million miles out in the end!
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Firefly - What do you think of the weekend's prospects - looks like potential heavy snowfall on W/NW winds?
Difficult to predict the amount of snow that will fall, but the charts are looking useful. Certainly much colder than of late. However much snow falls, it won't last. Rain is forecast to come in by Monday to all levels. The freeze/thaw continues! That said, not much thawing above 3500 ft goes on between January and March!
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Oh, and there are still patches of snow in Berkshire near Cookham Dean, around 240 ft! I saw them when I was out for my jog last night...
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Never got enough snow to create snow patches. Some patchy cover on the Cotswolds yesterday but dont know how well its survived last nights downpour.
Unless, of course, you lived at the Cotswold village of Brockhampton in August 1634. If you had, you'd have seen 'a great quantity' of snow and ice that persisted from a massive January blizzard. I've seen the original hand-written note (Account book of Giles Geaste Charity, started by order of John Bartley, Bailiff of Tewksbury, 1558. Gloucester Records Office, reference D2688/1: folio 79v).
I think your comments are spot on, as the regular contributors to the "Scottish snow patches" threads often point out, it helps if the winter's snowfalls are concentrated into north and east-facing hollows so that they don't get much direct sunshine at the warmest time of day.
That's true, but it's not so much that the north and east facing aspects are more sheltered than others from direct sunshine, but rather the big moisture-laden Atlantic storms that roll in during winter. These storms (typically coming from a westerly and south-westerly direction) can deposit huge amounts of snow in even a 24 hour period. The combination of quantity of snow, direction and strength of wind are crucial. NE facing hollows gather this snow (in a process known as 'fetch'), where it can accumulate to an exceptional depth.
Yes, my post above is more or less a summary of the following thread at http://www.winterhig...2,143591,page=3 which Iain Cameron (who posts at Winterhighland and on here as firefly) started earlier than usual (inspired by the mammoth early season blizzards) to keep an eye on Highland snowfall events during the winter and remaining patches later on in the year. I know some here are interested in this admittedly slightly obscure topic. I supply a few photos and observations from hillwalking trips but there are some very knowledgeable people posting on the thread, including snow expert and ecologist Dr Adam Watson, who posts as Chionophile. Has been a bit quieter for snowfall since new year although most areas have caught some beefy showers at times and there have been avalanches and more wind-scouring to increase the amount of snow in the favoured spots for retention. A few freeze-thaw cycles, notable by their absence during the long very cold spells of the last couple of winters, don't do the survival chances any harm anyway.
We'll see whether Spring brings unusually warm weather like 2011, cold and heavy westerly snowfalls like 1994 or something closer to average. This could be crucial to how much is still around come the autumn.
Despite the general consensus that it's been a less snowy year than normal, the numerous storms of December and early January (all from a westerly direction) have deposited a very substantial quantity of snow in the 'right' places (north and east facing hollows). Couple this with the frequent freeze/thaw cycle and we're looking at a very different picture to the previous two winters. In 2010, for example, much snow fell. However, it came predominantly from the north and east, and with little wind. When the warm weather came it stripped the largely cosmetic, unconsolidated snow.
Deep and uniform snow on the Cairngorm plateau might make for a pretty picture, but what I like to see is 24 hours of intense snow and SW wind, so that when the cloud clears it reveals a hill with a lot of black (i.e. snow-free) ridges. This means that the snow that has fallen has been blown or shifted to the lee side of the hill. Typically to the places where it will last longer.
What you must also remember that, just because no snow is falling even at 1000 ft, it does not mean that it isn't falling as snow higher up. Above 3500 ft (this is a lot of high ground in the Cairngorms and Nevis area) a great deal of snow will fall where it is not at lower levels: even at 2500 ft. This tricks people into thinking that there's 'no snow'. On the contrary, if you were to go up into the higher reaches of Observatory Gully on Ben Nevis at present you'd be looking at snow in excess of 15 metres (50 ft) deep in places.
Oh, and it is only February! We've got potentially another two months of proper winter weather to add to what's already there. March can be a very good month for snow, and even April snow is pretty common on the high hills in Scotland. Winter is far from being over.
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November's weather has been silly on the high tops of Scotland. Warm temperatures and virtually no snow thus far haven't done the patches much good. However, we already know that Sphinx (Garbh Choire Mor of Braeriach) has survived. Aonach Beag will probably be there still, as will The top patch at Observatory Gully. However, we haven't seen them for a week or so, and are unsure as to what size they are. coaster is due a visit soon, so I'm sure he'll update us in due course.
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Survival of the Sphinx snow-patch is now assured. The attached photograph is from yesterday, courtesy of Eddie Boyle. The new snow is deep, and no chance of it melting now!
http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/file.php?2,file=7748
I'm going up Ben Nevis tomorrow to see how much old snow is left. If the weather is nice then I will go on to Aonach Beag to check on that. If you fancy keeping up to date then I will be Twittering the results as the day goes on. @theiaincameron is the name if you fancy keeping up to date!
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I envy you lucky people who live near these places where snow patches survive,as it happens i'm about 20 mins in car away from the Penninies.Despite my inability to drive this fact is still cool.I would love to live in or near the cairngorns.This question has probably been asked-have any snow patches lasted the last say 111 year or so?Also have any snow patches survived in the pennines? Is that just totally dumb of me to ask.
111 years?! A strange number! The answer is no. The longest that the patches have survived (that we're aware of) is about 90 years. It could be longer than this, but we came across records which stated that snow melted completely on Ben Nevis in 1933 for the first time since at least 1840. In reality, it could easily have been well over 100. Since 1933, the patches have melted a further four times: 1959, 1996, 2003 & 2006.
Snow has never lasted in the Pennines, at least not in modern times. In the book Cool Britannia, there is a whole section on northern England including the Pennines. There is a fascinating account of snow lasting until mid August in 1979!
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Highland Perthshire through to the Cairngorms seem to have caught quite a lot of snow yesterday / overnight with drifting. Hopefully enough to save the Sphinx patch?
Yup. Severe drifting and heavy snowfall has hit the Cairngorms. Most of the damage was done on the 17th-18th, and by now Sphinx will be well and truly buried. Barring a tropical mild spell, this means that lasting snow has arrived. Just in the nick of time, mind you! The picture below (courtesy of Davie Duncan) was taken on the 16th! A mere 18 hours before the nasty weather arrived...
Snow Patches On Scottish Mountains
in Spring Weather Discussion
Posted
Excellent photos, spindrift. The ones of the Laird's Tablecloth and Beinn Bhrotain from Saturday are very useful. Laird's patch looks to be a couple of hundred metres long. Nae bad! Looks like you had a reasonable day for it, too.
If you've a keen eye, you can see the difference in vegetation colouring adjacent to the Laird's Tablecloth snow. Where snow has recently melted, the grass is brown. This is because it is emerging from its dormant winter state, and to all intents and purposes it thinks it's spring, not midsummer! It readily turns a lush green colour, with sheep and other grazing animals favouring it over that which has been exposed for a while. This is because it is more nutrient rich (more phosphorous). I have seen red deer grazing near snow patches often, and used to wonder why.
Another interesting point that many people miss is the types of vegetation that dislike snow. Heather, for instance, does not like long snow lie on the hills. It can tolerate it for a while, but snow which lies for even a few months a year dissuades heather from forming. In the photograph below of Carn Ban Mor, taken on the 31st May 2009, you can see a long-lying snow patch resting in a heather-free hollow. Look again at the stream gully and surrounding area where the snow has recently departed. No heather. You can tell where the snow lies longest on account of this, so even if you visit in September and see no snow you'll be able to tell what shape the patch in an average summer!