firefly

March 27, 2011

Thanks, Spindrift.

Yes indeed. I'm interested in the Scottish Borders. The snow you're observing is almost certainly from the falls of late November, early December. These will be the ones that are the most consolidated (i.e. hardy), and will persist longer than the ones that have formed in the last 4 weeks.

The Corserine patches are of particular interest, because of their aspect. I've looked at the map, and am guessing the patches are more on the 750m contour, rather than on the brow of the slope. Is this correct? Interesting about the southerly aspect patches. Whereabouts on the hill is it? If you're able to keep watch on these and let me know when they vanish then that'd be very helpful indeed.

Thanks,

ff

March 22, 2011

Thanks, 4wd. Very interesting indeed. Can you PM me your name. I'll explain when you do!

March 21, 2011

I'm fairly sure the NYMoors are clear of snow now, but I was surprised yesterday - stirring the farm slurry pit in readiness for spreading this week, a substantial 'iceberg' of frozen slurry and snow refused to mix in - it had formed where snow and frozen slurry had been pushed in before Christmas then covered with more insulating material.

The block is almost the size of an old-style mini car.

4wd, this is very interesting. When you say 'pushed in', what do you mean exactly? Also, what size was the slurry pit? I'm guessing the frozen bit of slurry that didn't mix in was in the centre of the pit?

Also, I don't suppose you've a picture of it, do you?

March 20, 2011

<...> desite being only a few inches high and a few feet long and almost totally black and grey there were a couple of piles left . Doubt that they will last more than another day or two but still there. The frosts in the last few days must have given them an extra little boost.

Thanks, Norrance. Amazing, really. What date do you reckon this snow is from? November 28th?

ps Did too much of the last weekends snowfall end up being blown on to the West facing slopes to help the patches later this year?

In a word, yes. The snow this year on NE aspects is much deeper than last year, and about on par with 2008 (which is good). Although it may not be a vintage year this year, it is certainly shaping up to be decent.

March 19, 2011

Norrance, are the Dundee Technology Park snow piles still there?! I'm fascinated, and curious!

March 12, 2011

Remarkable, Norrance. Snow from November still persists at Technology Park, Dundee?! Amazing.

March 11, 2011

Popped into Penrith this morning, snow on Cross Fell now almost non existent. Helvellyn looking plastered with the stuff, old snow and alot of fresh from recent days. Should get another decent top up tonight.

Looks like Helvellyn will win this year for these parts.

Maybe, maybe not! Remember, the longest lying snow on Cross Fell cannot be seen from Penrith. Alston gives the best view for the longest patch, which is situated on the north east of the hill usually. Helvellyn's longest lying snow is pretty visible from higher ground around Penrith, so I'm not surprised at the difference you can see from there.

March 9, 2011

The lack of heavy snow over winter and mild Febuary has meant the N Pennines and Lake District have snow patches numbers you expect in mid May.

Tucco, what hills are you talking about? I'm guessing Cross Fell & Great Dun Fell in the Pennines? Possibly Helvellyn in the Lakes? I'm guessing you're near Penrith? I'd be very interested to know how big and how many patches there are.

Thanks.

February 23, 2011

The snow patches from November in car parks at places like supermarkets have now made the local press here with comments about how they are now rock hard like cement after the freeze thaw cycles. There was even a picture in the local rag, the Courier yesterday, though it was hard to tell that the pile pictured was originally snow as it was so dirty.

I expect that this weeks milder weather to come will melt them somewhat but I guess that some will make it through to the end of the month.

Fascinating, actually. For a mound of snow to persist for 3-months, even in winter, in a supermarket car-park must be unusual. I don't suppose there's a photograph anywhere I could look at is there?

February 9, 2011

A similar thing occurs in Scotland. I don't have the statistics to hand, admittedly, but the rainfall east of the A9 is generally less than that to the west. As TWS has stated, orographic rain falls when air is forced up, condenses and then releases as precipitation. It therefore stands to reason that land on the leeward side of a range of mountains exposed to the prevailing wind is likely to get less rain.

I've walked on Ben Nevis and Glen Coe in good weather, only to find it raining when I get past the 3000 ft mark. Very annoying!

November 8, 2010

Unfortunately the weather put paid to me and my friend's attempt to find the small patch of snow that we're certain remained on Aonach Beag today. However, the plus side is that we're now pretty certain lasting snow has arrived at Ben Nevis and its neighbours.

After a winter characterised by very low temperatures (the lowest average temperature in Scotland for many a year) and heavy snowfall from the north, the expectation amongst certain people that I spoke to was that this was to be a vintage year for snow-patch survival in Scotland. This was to prove to be completely unfounded, as the snow that survived did so only by the skin of its teeth.

In England we saw snow persist until the 13th June, when a small patch on Cross Fell finally succumbed to warm weather. This was a month later (on Cross Fell) than last year, and pretty unusual by recent standards. In Wales a patch survived on Carnedd Llewelyn (at a location called Y Ffoes Ddyfn (the deep cut)) until the evening of the 28th June. Very unusual we think, though we have no recent records to compare against. This late date almost stands up against historical accounts (pre-1930) where it was known to persist into July quite regularly.

The reasons why such a deep snow fall in Scotland failed to translate into lots of surviving patches is purely speculative, as no meteorological research was done (to our knowledge). However, there are - in my opinion - two reasons why this was the case. Firstly, the snow came almost exclusively from the north this past winter. These big northerly storms give the impression of deep cover, and indeed in some instances hollows that do not normally get filled up were full, but the traditional long-lying patches that face NE or E fared poorly, given that they really need SW or W storms to fill them up to the level required to see them through the summer comfortably.

The other reason, in my view, was a distinct lack of freeze/thaw cycles. The winter stayed sub-zero on the hills for weeks at a time, and successive snowfalls just piled up on top of each other. When it did warm up, the pack was very unstable, resulting in the very high numbers of avalanches (a cracker of a picture of one from April 2010 at Glenshee, here). Unconsolidated snow is removed rapidly from the hill in warm/hot summer weather. It became obvious by July that although some locations would retain snow far longer than they normally do, the usual suspects would suffer. So it proved.

A final number will be posted on here once we've come to a definitive conclusion.

November 4, 2010

Yes, the consensus amongst those in the know is that lasting snow came to Garbh Choire Mor on the 18th October, thereby preserving the one remaining patch there (known as Sphinx, which can be seen here, from the 26th September 2009).

Barring a prolonged mild spell (very unlikely, looking at the medium-term forecast), it looks as though four patches made it on Ben Nevis. These really did make it by the skin of their teeth. None of them were longer than two metres, and the smallest was only half a metre or so long. You can see the larger ones here, and the small ones here. Had there been even a few more days mild weather then they'd have gone.

We don't yet know the situation at Aonach Beag, where snow has been ever-present since late 2006. The last report was from the 27th October, where a 4.5 metre patch was observed (though only from above, amid new snow). Myself and another intend to visit this on Monday to see (a) if there is any left, and (B) if we can find it! It will be well covered by now, so it may be very difficult.

Watch this space...

October 21, 2010

Beaten me to it, spindrift!

I'm certain that we will have at least 1 survival this year, and possibly 3: 4 at the best, though Aonach Beag is still very much in the balance I feel. It won't be getting as much as the others due to the fact it's about 700 ft lower down. I was at Aonach Beag a week past Saturday and it is barely above 3000 ft. Astonishing really. The snow visible in this photograph fell in November 2006.

I'll wait until this cold spell passes before I commit to the final tally!

October 4, 2010

Don't write them off just yet, chaps!

Whilst it is true that we're at a critical stage, there is still enough snow around for optimism. Sphinx patch at Garbh Choire Mor is largely unchanged from a week or so ago, and Ben Nevis has a couple of reasonably sized ones. As I write, Ciste Mhearad has now gone (it went today), leaving only Ben Nevis (3 there), Garbh Choire Mor (2 there) and Aonach Beag (probably still 1 there).

Of those, I'm fairly sure that one of the GCM ones will go (Pinnacles) in the next 2 weeks. Ben Nevis' snow is good for a wee while yet. All in all, I think it's 50/50 as to whether we'll have any survivals. As usual, if there is, it'll be Sphinx at Garbh Choire Mor. This particular patch has disappeared only 5 times in the last 100 years (1933, 1959, 1996, 2003 & 2006).

September 29, 2010

Wow, 2006? Is that correct?

Indeed it is. At present, there are 4 patches in Scotland which date from late-2006: Aonach Beag, Sphinx (Garbh Choire Mor), Pinnacles (Garbh Choire Mor) and Observatory Gully (Ben Nevis). What may amaze you even more is that had you gone Garbh Choire Mor in Braeriach in July 1996 you would have been looking at snow that fell in 1959! And... had you gone to Ben Nevis in September 1933 you would have been able to see snow that had been there since before 1840...

Aonach Beag a few days ago. This is an example of the snow that fell in 2006 and has not yet melted. I think it will be lucky to make it this year...

September 28, 2010

Sorry for not updating this thread as often as I ought to!

The snow-patches are now getting very small, and only 7 persist.

Braeriach (Garbh Choire Mor): 2

Cairn Gorm (Ciste Mhearad): 1

Ben Nevis (various): 3

Aonach Beag: 1

You can see some recent snaps on my flickr account: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/collections/72157623776983597/

My gut feeling is that we'll get a couple of survivals, but nothing's guaranteed. Fingers crossed!

A nice picture of Pinnacles in Garbh Choire Mor, courtesy of Stuart Gordon. Taken on the 26th September. Quite a bit of new snow.

And here's Sphinx on the same day. The old snow you can see fell in late 2006. This is true of both photographs.

September 27, 2010

Significant snow fell on the hills of Scotland at the end of the first week of September 1976. Some pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/sets/72157614758658978/

Also, a storm in late August 1918 saw snow still lying a week later on the higher hills of Scotland.

September 14, 2010

Down to the real nitty-gritty now in terms of remaining snow! Single figures of snow patches now, and it'll be touch-and-go to see what survives and what doesn't. I'm still of the opinion that we'll only get one or two this year, but it really wouldn't surprise me if they all vanish..

This picture of Ciste Mhearad is from today, and shows one of only 5 remaining patches on the Cairngorms. Note the fresh lying snow around the location. Quite likely to be a reasonable dusting on the summit of Cairn Gorm and Ben Macdui, not to mention Ben Nevis. The other snow-patches that are extant are: Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach (3-off), Coire Mor, Ben Macdui (1-off), Ben Nevis (2-off), Aonach Beag (1-off). There's an outside chance that Aonach Mor is still holding on to its snow at protalus, but I'd wager on it being gone.

September 6, 2010

Well for example the Cairgorms in particular host the only population of Arctic Hares in most of Northern europe, these creatures are white and benefit by being camouflaged by the snow and also depend on it.

I assume you mean mountain hares (Lepus timidus) as opposed to Arctic hares (Lepus arcticus)? The Cairngorms are not the only range of hills in Britain that support a population of them. I've seen them as far south as Ben Lomond, and in fact you can see them as far south as the Peak District in England. The Wikipedia article stating Arctic hares are present in Scotland is inaccurate.

There are also many tundra species of flora in the cairgorms not seen anywhere this far south of the arctic circle, surly by increasing the chances of snow survival you are only increasing the chances this special fauna and flora has to survive?. Snow patches have the ability to cool a greater area than the actual size of them, which in turn will help all that i've mentioned above.

I assume the fauna to which you refer is the mountain hare? I can't imagine that a few snow-holes will make any difference to the likelihood of survival of even one mountain hare. It's true that there are rare mosses and liverworts that exist around and underneath the long-lying snow patches, but the snow-holes will make virtually no difference to their longevity.

September 4, 2010

Apart from ski-ing, I've sometimes wondered whether the number of snow-holes which are dug by winter training course participants and other walkers in certain locations in the Cairngorms, like Ciste Mhearaid, diminishes the longevity of the snow there by taking away snow and letting air circulate amongst it? Perhaps by the time it gets down to the stage where the snow is in patches, it isn't really a factor?

Very, very unlikely to make any material difference.

I personally believe for nature conservational reasons they shouldnt allow skking on the snow patches or snow hole diggin from mid april till december.

Interesting theory. What nature conservation reasons did you mean specifically?

September 3, 2010

Is it still there ?

No!

August snows are ephemeral, and the chances are it disappeared that day. Interestingly, though, a chap I know was up on a remaining snow-patch from last winter (this photograph) and he said the evidence of the snow-fall could still be seen on the old snow, but not the rocks. Obviously the colder snow preserving it.

On a more unusual note, how about this for bonkers... Skiing in Scotland in early September?

August 30, 2010

Believe it or not, the first snows have arrived on the summit of the highest Cairngorms. This picture is from Sunday, where the snow fell to about 1100m. Courtesy of Stuart Gordon.

August 24, 2010

Thank you very much for the replies, it has helped me understand better.
I was wondering if fresh snowfall around September/October in the Scottish mountains if possible would actually stick in to the rest of winter rather than thaw?
One last thing, again may sound silly but do you expect some snow patches to survive in to this winter? (I'm thinking yes?)

No problem.

In 2008, lasting snow arrived at Garbh Choire Mor (Braeriach) on 1st October.

I would expect only a couple of patches to survive this year, so it's not a silly question! Actually, it's a very good one!

Are there any patches that don't get any direct sunlight?

Not really sure. I would hazard a guess that of all the long-lying patches, Aonach Beag gets the least. A study would be needed.

You can generally get lasting snows from september onwards going by what I've heard however seldome do they occur before october. I think last years were later than most years.

See above comment on 2008!

August 24, 2010

I would assume the following:

Shade

Low Humidity

Shelter

Cold Surface (rock type that does not quickly warm)

Repeated cycles of freeze thaw the previous winter

These could be wrong............firefly over to you!

Not bad!

The single most important factor in my opinion is the direction that the snow blows in from during winter. This year is a classic example. Huge volumes of snow fell, but the normal long-lasting sites mostly all missed out because little of it came from the SW. Most of the big snowfalls had an easterly direction, which is really very little use to corries facing NE! Also, snow blowing in on a SW wind is generally driven in at pace. It doesn't need Einstein to realise that snow blown in quickly (i.e. large quantities) will accumulate faster than snow with little wind.

Freeze/thaw is also important. Again, this year there was very little indeed. Temperatures in the Highlands stayed below freezing for weeks at a time, and a lack of SW or S hairdryers to thaw the pack ensured it stayed unconsolidated. When the inevitable warming came, the snow was not very resilient at all.

When the patches get small, shelter from bright sunlight is crucial. A good example of this is the Aonach Beag patch, which sits at a strangely low 3155 ft (lower than Scafell). This patch sits below the 1000 ft cliffs of the summit, and is very well sheltered indeed. It probably misses out on most summer sun. Direct sunlight, in my view, melts snow quicker than warm rain. That's not to say that warm rain doesn't have a big effect, but sunshine is a bigger factor (in my humble view).

Snow that sits on earth lasts longer than snow that sits on rock. Snow on earth is better insulated, and is not as prone to melting from beneath. Rain running down rock gets into the bottom of the snow and melts it, thereby allowing the melting process to form a two-pronged attack! A good example of that is the protalus rampart snow, shown here from October 2007 where it has broken into pieces as a result of melting from below.