laserguy

Guess it would,GW. All the things that plague us (no pun intended ), be it climate change (real or not),energy resource depletion,natural resource depletion,racial tensions,overcrowding,you name it,can't be helped by burgeoning populations. If I was a religious type,I'd say that many factors are now converging towards a point where the 'guy upstairs' has his finger hovering over the reset button. Insofar as what I know about it,bird flu has yet to make the leap between species? I suppose we're OK really until,and if,that happens. Meanwhile,pray that such delights as Ebola,Marburg etc stay in whatever hidey-hole they're in.

I don't know about a growing groundswell of opinion,it's more like a growing groundswell of boredom! I know my mind is made up regarding AGW,but that's just me and shouldn't be confused with the point of this thread, ie the attitude of the masses. It's like the journey down the High Street being part of your daily routine and coming across the guy with the sandwich board proclaiming 'the end is nigh'. After a while you get used to him until you no longer notice his presence. That's what's happening now re. climate change. Incidentally, I really did see one of those guys a few weeks back with an 'end is nigh' sandwich board! I thought they were the stuff of cartoons but there he was,but as far as I could tell no-one was taking a blind bit of notice! It's got to the stage now though,that if government(and those of the world,not just ours) mean what they say,isn't it obvious that they have GOT to act instead of leaving it up to a public who is rapidly losing interest and trust of a regime where the only action that they can see is rising taxes being spent on anything but climate matters and even more restrictions? It's all very well AGW adherants coming on here and keep repeating "we've got to act". Who the hell are 'we', and apart from digging deeper and deeper into pits of money we don't have,exactly what is it that 'we' have got to do? I'm sorry,but the people who allegedly run the country have really got to get to grips with this one and clearly show where every extra penny which is raised under the banner of climate change taxation is going,and why. High Pressure put it very well in a recent post. BTW,my son (aged 5 ),receives more education at home than at school. At 4 he was extremely literate and numerate,had an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of the cosmos and an insatiable lust for learning! At school he's bored mindless because they're all still at the 'ABC' stage. If the missus and me didn't have to go out to earn a living he wouldn't go to school at all. So,with this country specifically in mind,the AGW argument falls on the ears of four main groups as follows: 1). Those who accept AGW. No further 'persuasion' needed,though I for one would like to know how their lifestyle differs from mine in a way that makes any difference whatsoever,in any way,shape or form. 2). Those who dismiss AGW. Perhaps their viewpoint will change in time,perhaps it won't. But if it does,what are they going to do (or not do ),which is so different from their current lifestyle? Those who work will still need to work,still need to get there,heat their homes,put food on the table,and if they're lucky to have a little left over to make life enjoyable. And if they've worked damn hard all year is anyone going to begrudge them their two weeks abroad once a year? (Not my cup of tea,btw!). 3).Those who's intellectual advancement goes no further than an interest in football,telly,takeaways,Page 3, or indeed anything that you and me regard as news. In other words,the majority from what I can make out. Y'know the type,anything on the front pages or on the t.v news where anything 'sciency' is remotely involved,or political,their eyes just glaze over and they skip it. Who's to reach these people,to ignite even the tiniest flame of interest? Good luck to 'em! 4). People who are at that stage of life where they might observe with interest but are too old/infirm to 'do anything' due to the constrictive circumstances they are already in. By my reckoning then,if all you AGWers are right we're doomed unless our great and mighty leaders step in and sort it out. After all,that's what they're paid for.

Sure doesn't. In fact,it generates the opposite effect. So now all those people who most certainly aren't numb-nuts and have the ability to think,to really think long,long and hard for themselves instead of being told what's what by our controllers apparently are thick and worthy of nothing but scorn and ridicule. No-one is totally dismissing a warming trend,we're dismissing the causes and the motives for saying it's due to us,backed up by the lack of any real action by the very ones who are saying it's our fault and treating (for example) the Olympics of far more pressing concern. As for the genuinely uneducated,couldn't care less to find out hordes,well they frankly aren't my concern. Let them accept the taxes and nonsense they keep swallowing without complaint.

Don't want to even go down that road,it's impossible to say anything without it being misconstrued for precisely the reasons you point out. So,faced with the dire consequences that we are constantly told are awaiting us via climate change,why aren't governments all over the world falling over themselves to go nuclear (which I have no problem with)? If they are doing already and I'm not aware,fine,emissions problem solved? But just watch the environmentalists who are currently wringing their hands over CO2 be up in arms at the announcement of a nuclear power programme! Personally,I don't deny warming completely (though the jury is still out on that one,all depending on the source,who to trust etc),only Agw. I don't froth at the mouth at the prospect of snow,the trend we are in makes it something to get worked up over if you're a cold lover but realistically we all know that the winters of yore are a pipedream until the trend reverses,as is the nature of trends. This is the way of climate as it's always been. Or is anyone seriously suggesting that we are on a one-way journey? If so,we're going the way of the dodo and there needs to be some way that government makes damn sure that the facts(?) are spelled out to everyone in the land and what's going to be/can possibly be done instead of whisperings of doom,spiralling taxation and the lavishing of millions of pounds of our money on such ludicrous things as the Olympics while we plunge headlong into the abyss!

Dev,astonishingly I agree with everything you've just said! We're straying into another topic here tho',so I think we'll have to agree to differ re. climate change. You're right tho',the extravagance of the West and our want for nothing,easy come,easy go attitude is setting us up for disaster which is very real. IMO,of course! Regards,LG.

Dev,I assure you 100% I'm not being deliberately awkward or obstructive,but what would you honestly like to see me and millions of others actually DO? I can't speak for the population but I am an 'environmentally friendly' type ( low watt bulbs,walking miles to work even tho' I have a car,watching energy use etc,etc). Maybe your argument isn't with me after all,my only 'crime' not going with the AGW consensus(assuming there is such a thing)?

Just for you Dev,I'll sell all my worldly goods and go live in a tent far away from a flood plain and grow my own crops. Happy now? If I had a sudden change of opinion (won't happen,trust me ),so what? Short of the tent-dwelling scenario,my life is going to proceed pretty much as it is now. It's the only way I know. The great climate machine will grind on without me and the millions who are just trying to get by without causing unneccesary damage on our way. I'm not at the point of throwing my arms up in the air and wailing about it,but I'm fed up of being treated like some kind of villain by AGW types and being bled dry by the government to fund whatever they squander taxes on in a futile facade of conjectural climate change.

I've just seen a BBC news report about the North Sea surge/high tide. ENTIRELY predictably,the reporter's final comment was that we can expect to see much more of this in the future 'when climate change kicks in'. I can tell you,though I was fully expecting that I wanted to kick the bleedin' telly in,and I'm a very placid sorta bloke! It seems then that they're expecting an increase of EVERYTHING. Pure,unadulterated twaddle. I'm getting angry now,as I suspect a lot of people are,not just bored with it all. Meanwhile,our government is on about building an extra 3,000,000 houses while we're simultaneously expected to reduce the UK's 'carbon footprint'. OK,all you number crunchers out there,work that one out and come back to me when you've twiddled all the figures to make it add up.

debs I couldn't agree more. Somewhat OT but leaving AGW aside a return to simpler,more fulfilling living would be the best thing that could happen instead of the relentless pursuit of faster,better,bigger,easier. It'd silence all those who clamour for action on AGW and bring a return of sanity to this world. A little collective hardship would do us all good and hopefully bring us together instead of making material things our prized goal. Still,we're living in the world we find around us and have to go along with the flow to some extent at least,short of dropping out completely and being 'left behind'. Sad.

In my work I come across new faces most days. Being the type of chap that I am I usually steer the chat towards the weather if a conversation ensues,(how sad is that!) Regardless of whether they are right or wrong,I can honestly,truly say I have yet to meet someone who hasn't said words to the effect that global warming/climate change is complete nonsense. These people are neither lame-brains nor climate experts,just representative of your average man in the street,so presumably their opinion can be taken as a snapshot of the wider public opinion? I've laboured this point often,but if climate catastrophe is/is going to be real,folk aren't interested until they suffer first hand. Having said that,the more mature folk I know were completely unperturbed by the summer floods as they had 'seen it all before'. In a world where X-Factor,Big Brother etc are the main points of topic,and where climate change is just a minor news item but a persistent nagging one which always implies sacrifices of some sort and yet more taxation,who can blame them? Paul,you're right when you say most folk can't seperate weather from climate,but I guess people would expect,naturally,that a change in climate would precipitate changes in the weather they observe,too. And OON,apart from this summer,folk have yet to see a change 'to go away' in the first place. Many folk lament the absence of winters how they used to be of course,but mild ones are hardly a catastrophe that's going to get people into a panic. I reckon a cold and snowy winter this time around will kill the global warming debate stone dead in the minds of Joe Public! Stratos Ferric,just seen your entry while previewing my post,and for once we appear to barking up the same tree! I mean, IF our summer and the horrendous suffering it caused could be definitely,undoubtedly be attributed to AGW,still no-one would care except those affected! There's little doubt in my mind that it would take a super calamity,or a closely timed sequence of,before mass action is taken. Then what,and what form would said action take? Too late as you said,and by then no-one would care what the cause was. None of the above relates to my own opinions btw,just an observation of wider attitudes. IF disastrous climate change is coming courtesy of us,then I feel that all this tinkering around the edges a la low wattage bulbs,carbon trading etc is an utterly futile drop in the ocean on the world stage. Time to usher in a new world order methinks,but who wants that and who knows what Genie would be released from the bottle then? Sorry,I'm finding it a little difficult to articulate my point due to sleep deprivation. Hopefully readers can see where I'm coming from!

http://www.globalwarming.nottinghamshireti...CALYPSE_NO.html This makes an interesting read,albeit a lengthy one. Chicken and egg time. Which came first- the idea that out of all the known 'greenhouse gasses', CO2 was deemed destined to trigger global warming before a warming was actually noted,or was a warming noted which triggered the search for a culprit which strangely dismissed everything else and zeroed in on CO2 just as it was noted that an energy crisis might be on the (then ) distant horizon?

What's all this twaddle about 'the planet trying to redress the balance'? Anybody would think that the Earth had emotions and could feel pain. It hasn't and it doesn't,and couldn't care less (seeing as it's incapable of caring ) whether there was any life on it at all,in much the same way Saturn couldn't care less that there's no life on it! Obviously,as environments and habitats of life forms on Earth change for whatever reason,a chain of events will be triggered which will run it's course. Absolutely nothing unusual or new about that. Just seems that way because we happen to be right here,right now to witness it! But the Earth itself giving a monkey's about what all the critters who live on it get up to and responding to that? Nah! Earth doesn't have an optimum,normal temperature,just the creatures on it right now happen to like it the way it is. When folk speak of 'saving the planet',they really mean 'saving the necks of the human race'. What do you mean,GW,when you speak of 'acceptable' past levels? Acceptable to us? Would it be acceptable to have another full-on ice age during our tenure,and if we were around to witness it's onset would that be all our fault too?

Excellent! Much enlightened now,thanks everyone.

Excuse my ignorance,but what is SATSIGS?? And SACRA for that matter? Have I been under a rock for too long,or are these things unique to NW? Someone please explain!

Just get stocked up on 'Utterly Butterly'! Wonder why they add vitamin D to margarine? Is it something to do with improving the product,or is it the result of a government idea to introduce something to the diet which certain groups are at risk of being deficient,such as the addition of fluoride to water,folic acid to bread etc? Re the sun,I wonder how many sun worshippers are aware that they are toasting themselves under what is effectively a controlled hydrogen fusion bomb? I bet if you asked folk what the sun was they'd mostly go "um,er,it's a big ball of fire,innit"? As far as S.A.D. goes,I get that when the sun comes out. Don't like it,never have done. Wouldn't bother me in the least if it stayed overcast for the rest of my days. Am I unique??

Re the above responses to my post Magpie: I can neither prove nor disprove which 'side' of the science is right or wrong. Not being a climatologist myself I can only go with the evidence I see and my interpretation of it plus the attendant politics. I have decided,as you probably have. The politicians appear to have decided from the outset who they're going to listen to. Gray-Wolf,the only thing that would sway me is to see the outcome of a world without man-made CO2. It's not going to happen so we'll never know. Devonian: I believe many of the scientists who don't support AGW are blowing the whistle. That their voices aren't heard by the mainstream points to something. Re Cat 5's post. I've said something similar quite recently,that is we live in a world of our own making and we're at the point now where a 'reversal' of our society is not going to happen. Even if everyone in the world wholeheartedly agreed with the premise of AGW,CO2 emissions are not going to fall appreciably until a)We all go live as hermits or b)Emissions plummet because our means of producing them are removed due to fossil fuel depletion. Biofuels? Oil isn't just for getting petrol from! I'm amenable to being wrong,but isn't Al Gore a politician and not a climatologist? I'd perhaps be as well off listening to the lollipop lady outside my boy's school.

Viking 141's earlier lengthy post (no point quoting it again ),was to me,quite brilliant. Further to that I'd like to say (and I can't stress enough that I'm not being deliberately awkward or obstructive ),that I will not and cannot take AGW seriously until government butts out of it completely and the scientists involved are no longer effectively in their employ. I mean,there are many thousands of scientists who robustly oppose AGW,and they are not funded by government. Why on Earth should I believe the ones who work for employers who are ,let's say economic with the truth,rather the ones who actually have nothing to lose by their opposition? AGW-as long as politicians are involved it's all about tax and nothing to do with our future welfare. Nobody likes a hypocrite,let alone take them seriously. Here's just one of thousands:Al Gore,living the life of palatial splendour and luxury off the back of telling the rest of the world how to behave. I don't think so.

Hello Stratos! I'm not going to go over past arguments about whether climate change is real and the causes of it etc. Not here anyway,though of course the debate will rumble on forever in some form or another. But do you (and be honest!),and anyone else who cares to comment truly believe that anything that we and the rest of the world do from here on in can alter whatever course the climate is taking? The whole thing fascinates me,otherwise I'd have nowt to say,but really the ways of the world aren't going to change. I'll be honest with you,I've not read anything about A.Gore's award and how he came to be deemed worthy of it. The guy annoys me and he's a politician,so on those grounds alone I'd be as well off reading an article from 'Toad Sexing Weekly' for the interest I have. But I've said this elsewhere on numerous occassions:raising awareness of alleged climate change and actually doing something are two different things. I'm still looking around for the truly drastic measures (worldwide) which need to be taken by governments if they are to have any credibility. Alright,awareness has been well and truly raised. Now what? Answer:nothing. I know,you know,and I'm 100% certain that no-one in the industrialised world is going to take a retrograde step,bar the odd and utterly futile gestures we can make to reduce our CO2 emissions by a miniscule amount. And certainly,the only way is 'up' for developing nations,until resource depletion says otherwise. So whether one accepts the diagnosis or not,there is no cure. That's what really gets me in all this climate change stuff;it matters not whether the cause is natural,down to us or a mixture of both. Either way there is nothing that we can,or are willing to do about it. Unless industry and consumerism worldwide grinds to a halt (and it won't,quite the opposite in fact),we're just going along for the ride. The true cause of current climate change then is unknown and will remain so until our CO2 output is forcibly removed from the equation. The truth may well reveal that certain quarters have been barking up the wrong tree all along,but they'll be happy presumably,because there's nothing left to produce it. You're right,comparing climate change with the Big-Mac chomping habits of the fair people of this land is mind-bogglingly ridiculous and shows the ludicrous depths politicians are willing to sink to and the degree to which they see us as complete morons. Actually,I feel grievously insulted by them. No comment on my joke! Didn't you find it amusing??

To illustrate the point of just how disastrous climate change could be,the government has warned that in 25 years time it's effects will be rivalled in severity by the consequences of...obesity!! I just don't know whether to laugh,cry or explode with rage. http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6397395. So,if the worst effects of alleged climate change,regardless of cause are as much to worry about as a bunch of folk getting a bit podgy we might as well drop the whole subject right now and look for something else to lose sleep over. While I'm at it,I expressed disbelief and bewilderment at Al Gore being awarded a Nobel Prize. Along with many others on here,we're not the only ones: http://smh.com.au/articles/2007/10/13/1191696238792.html I know that belongs in another thread,strictly speaking,but it seems to sit well here while we're on the nonsense theme. Just to keep things good humoured,here's a related joke: Why did the bull get a Nobel Prize?......Because he was out-standing in his field! Geddit?

Gray-Wolf,I'm 42 and I can remember stuff from my very early days about how we were all doomed from some environmental catastrophe or another ( the main 'hot potato' at the time was an iminnent ice age!). That and every other never came to pass. The closing of stable doors and bolting horse was the real point of my post,though. BTW,as an artist were you known under another name?? I'm intrigued! I bet you're familiar with Jethro Tull's 'Wond'ring Again'. If ever there was a song that really nailed the point of attitudes to the Earth,that's the one. Makes even a hardened cynic like me pause and reflect for a while and rue the human condition. Ah well,there y'go. Music review over! Politicians should use it as their climate change anthem, like Labour used the song 'Things can only get better' in their election campaign! It'd be more effective,for sure.

And that's putting it mildly (no pun intended ).

So,over the years weve put xxxxxgigatonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere and the temp has gone up by (allegedly) 0.02C or whatever. Thank goodness for CO2 then,without our input we'd all be frozen to death by now!

So you're not feeling at all well and go along to see the doctor. Many tests and investigations ensue and eventually the doctor says you've been eating too much of this,smoking too much of that etc,and over the years this is how you've ended up. Give that man an award for his diagnostic excellence. Similarly,many thousands of climate scientists have reached pretty much the same conclusion WRT climate change,with Big Al as their mouthpiece. Having reached the diagnosis they can all go home now and put their feet up. Difference is,the physician will probably draw up a plan of action and figure out how to repair some of the damage caused by years of abuse. Al Gore and his merry team of pranksters sit back and say they were right all along. End of. I'm fed up to the back teeth of being constantly reminded(?) of the error of our ways but nothing actually being done to change that. I just know you're going to subtly infer that I don't know what I'm talking about Stratos,(please don't go there,it's boring and doesn't belong here)but if politicians want to save the world by cutting CO2 emissions why don't they DO IT? I'll just sit back and watch how the global economy collapses and we all end up in a third world state. Whether one accepts the diagnosis or not is irrelevant,the fact is CO2 emissions will only start to fall when oil production does. And that day can't be far away now,(news item today said oil prices at record high,reserves much lower than forecast,demand increasingly difficult to meet etc ). When that day comes,we'll embark on an era which will start to shed some light on the truth of CO2 and climate change.But by then it'll be too late,we'll have smoked all the fags and got the terminal cancer. We'll have much,much more pressing concerns than shifting weather patterns. That's why I think the environmental agenda (with particular regard to CO2 ) is slipping off the radar. Is there really any folk sat at home thinking "hmm,if I turn off the telly,buy some low wattage bulbs,share the car to work etc,I can make some difference to the world?" I've maintained all along,and will always do so,that politicians must make a stance and rigidly impose whatever measures they deem necessary to achieve their aims instead of leaving it up to the 'people'.

Gray-Wolf,don't take this the wrong way (I enjoy your posts and largely agree with your views ),but just lately a lot of your posts have been hinting darkly at one,undefined event (which has just acquired a name-Apocalypse). Do you know something we don't?? I get the feeling that there's something you want to get off your chest but fear ridicule so you're hinting at something which we'll only 'get' when the penny drops ,rather than just coming out and saying it. I often go on about the change in world order due to energy depletion/conflict,population explosion,credit collapse etc. Are you barking up the same tree,or what? How do you figure we're 'going to lose two thirds of the world's population'? That's a pretty bold statement,to say the least! Straying a little here,so where does global warming come into all this?

There's no constant in climate,only constant change. People should be thankful that it is apparently tending towards warm than cold and stop moaning about it. If it was tending towards cold then that would be something to worry about. Sooner or later that's the direction it'll be heading in,-inevitable. And boy will we wish for the good ol' days of 'global warming'.