J07

Can you think of any examples? Say, North NZ is cool....maybe Sydney then average, and Brisbane warm. But then I think the gap between North NZ and Sydney is maybenot big enough. Perhaps, North NZ/Sydney would be cool subtropical, Brisbane average subtropical and Rockhampton warm subtropical. I think most NZ'ers would scoff at that. Chatham Islands' weather is something of a minor joke (along with Southland and Coastal Otago). If I have my facts right, it's less sunny than London. Regardless of moderate temperatures, I just can't see somewhere with sunshine hours of 1400 claiming to be subtropical-like. Are their temperatures going down? Interesting... Sounds reasonable, but their lowest recorded temperature of -5C is quite amazing. How did that happen? It would be good, but maybe not truly ideal, though certainly the best place in the UK. I still don't really understand why they are so fussy in their native land. They seem to cluster in groves, and everyone talks about how hard it is to grow them and that they mostly don't bother. I heard this just 2 miles from where there was a fantastic stand of them. And it was flat, coastal plains around a North facing bay, sheltered by ranges to the south, east and west. Plenty of rain, plenty of sun, mild winters and warm summers. I just don't get it. I begin to wonder whether it has something to do with soil type, or perhaps in some places they just get crowded out as they are such slow growers.

The upper limit of approx 30* latitude sounds quite sensible. I have always marvelled at the US hardiness zones, we can get placed in quite a good zone because of our maritime climate, but I think we lack the real summer heat that allows subtropicals to truly thrive. Off the top of my head, an example might be passionfruit. I know they will grow here, but will they fruit consistently? IME, they won't. In theory I believe we could grow avocadoes in certain areas, although the recent long period of frosts might cause them to drop their foliage and possibly never recover. Again though, I don't know that they would fruit. Likewise, tamarillos (the world's tastiest fruit!), although I believe they are even more marginal. The list goes on with bananas, tomatoes and eggplants. To greater or lesser extent, they can all grow here, but when it comes to thriving and fruiting, you may get lucky with some small bananas, and really I think we need more sunshine to properly ripen tomatoes and more heat in general for eggplants. I should not complain too much as it's really great to see some of the things we can grow in our gardens here. The last 10 days may have really tested a number of the more underprepared specimens though! I wouldn't really class New Zealand as subtropical, though the tourist brochures often disagree with me! I remember one region being described as such...then in winter I was crunching around on frost on the beach. This happened during the following spell of weather: http://www.metservice.com/default/index.ph...eature_aug_2007 An interesting read; it was this that resulted in the NZ winter minimum of -15.4C and multiple frozen lakes for people to go curling. Northland would be a classic subtropical area I suppose, with the very Northern tip having an annual mean in the region of 16.1C-18C. Though most towns there miss out on the Koeppen (the warmest month mean would only be about 20C) their winters are classic, averaging highs of something near 16C with mild nights and a lot of rain. In other words, the sort of wonderful wintry weather that the likes of WiB desire I'm not sure how it compares to the Scilly Isles. I'm sure there's a random island somewhere off the coast that matches it very closely, but likely it wouldn't have a weather station! So in piecemeal fashion : If we're going on averages alone (Scilly annual mean is about 11.3C), then temperature wise the Chatham Islands (off the east coast at about 43S) would be almost spot on, but are not sunny enough. Scilly summers seem about the same as those in Invercargill. Most populated NZ areas have average maxes above 10C in winter, you have to go inland and upwards to get single digit maxima but then you'd lose the humidity. Therefore I'd hazard that Scilly minima are similar to Auckland, with the maxima more like Fiordland (both are humid and wet).

How do you define "subtropical plant"?

By summer temperatures, do you mean max, min or average? I suppose the last point rules out anywhere in the UK though by a long way. BTW, what's the highest sea temperature the UK waters will get to? About 17/18C?

I saw a chap on the TV last night going for a swim off the Scilly Isles, to demonstrate the existence of the gulf stream. Unfortunately for him, he chose to do it in Spring. It had me thinking about the sort of climate that those little islands experience. So in the fashion of the lazy internet generation I consulted google. I could only find one weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/NORMS/DisplayI...&Units=both To summarise, February is 7C/8C whilst August is 14/18C. As expected, the climate is very moderate and max/min temperatures do not vary much. In terms of sunshine hours: http://www.scillyonline.co.uk/weather.html Giving us 1805 hours per year (if my calculator works correctly). This is good for this latitude, and puts it almost on a par with places like Eastbourne. That page also tells us the minimum temperature recorded is -5C, lower than I would have expected, to be honest. Whilst looking up this climate I came across all sorts of travel pages raving about the "subtropical" climate of the Scilly Isles. Now, I have also come across these claims for the Torbay area. As far as I can see from the statistics, the climate of the Scilly Isles does not strike me as "subtropical"- which is a word I've always associated with the lights of Brisbane and Orlando. The summers are quite cool, but sunny. Winters, yes, are extremely moderate and frosts are rare. So, it comes down to: How do we define "subtropical"? I have heard varying definitions. Some that require a frost free area, whereas others, like the Koeppen definition look at the temperatures and rainfall. We can probably assume that the Scilly Isles very rarely get frosts. The Koeppen definition asks for the coldest month to average over 0C. OK, basically *everywhere* in the UK satisfies this! It also needs constant year-round rainfall. I don't know rainfall stats for these isles but we can probably assume that they are met. However, we also need the warmest month to average over 22C. But, there is nowhere in the UK that comes anywhere near to this. It's hard enough finding somewhere that has daily maxima averaging over 22C. And, if anything, the Scilly Isles, with a 24hr mean of 16C, are much further from this 22C boundary than many other places. Apparently, they have palms growing on the islands, along with other tropicals and subtropicals. Obviously, there's no doubt that these plants survive, but I seriously wonder whether they thrive. We see palms all over the place outside of the tropics. I suppose it depends on the species, as some can tolerate very cold temperatures, others can not. So, what does subtropical really mean? Is the above definition fairly standard? Is "frost-free" a better requirement? Or, is it the case that there is no real standard? I just see that tourist boards can pick up on this, and that they can advertise their place as being subtropical, then the tourists come along one early afternoon in mid-August to be greeted by 14C and heavy rain. Basically, is subtropical a weasel word, or does it have real meaning to meteorologists and climate scientists?

I had that the other day, but they were unable to allocate me a survey. Gutted.

The BBC have overcooked the maxima today. For my town, they were predicting 9C max. At 2PM it is currently 6C.

Old links (from 2005) The first easterly mentioned: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/19...00119971215.gif http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/19...00219971215.gif You can choose the date you want as the format on that site is quite simple /ra/yyyy/Rrea001yyyymmdd.gif 00 is the run and the number after that is the chart type.

I think it's a splendid feeling in winter, feels quite surreal. In summer though, less fun...."the hot summer wind that drops torrents on the west coast, then rips across the plains, sucking the soil dry, snapping tempers and distoring television reception". The effect on farming can be quite negative. In winter, when there is not much grass, any feed that is put out for stock can be blown away entirely. And then in spring, lambing season, if there is a succession of fohn winds it will be too dry for grass to grow and you end up with serious problems at a very important time of the year. Then there's the fire risk in summer, and the possibility of any exposed top soil being blown out to sea.

I thought that they all say it, sooner or later. Seems fairly common anyway!

Cliched BBC weather forecast, circa mid January: Well it's been a lovely frosty morning for many of us, just look at all the blues in this chart, and there was even some wintriness for the Scottish hills. BUT, there will be a change as we head into the weekend, just look at what the Atlantic has in store for us, and that will be pushing into Western regions of Friday evening, and will be effecting much of the country throughout Saturday with persistent falls for Eastern and central regions and a band of showers lingering in the West. Behind that, Sunday will be a very blustery day with frequent heavy showers for most areas. Looking ahead to early next week, more rain coming in from the West with some heavy falls predicted on Tuesday. And this theme looks set to continue for the rest of the week. So, Huw, wet and windy for all of us, BUT AT LEAST IT'LL BE MILD."

Does the UK have statistics for the coldest ever wind chill recorded?

Too right! In equatorial areas it's just ridiculous. Singapore seems a nice place, but how on earth do people live there?! "Like living in a microwave" was one, all too apt, description I once heard.

I tend to be interested in almost any sort of weather. The only one I genuinelly dislike is grey skies and calm hanging around for days. In winter I like to look on the horizon and see dark clouds promising snow. (Sadly too rare). In summer I do like the odd blast of horribly humid, hot weather, although frankly British houses are torture to live in during these periods. I prefer it cooler and drier, although balmy evenings are really lovely during the humid spells. Autumn....I would say what we have now is close to perfect! For once, no one is complaining about the leaves failing to change or drop! It's been a slow, gradual process, with a good mixture of all sorts of lovely autumnal weather. Springtime, I think is a great time of year. Every single time, I hang on and think, when will the change happen? And as always, it's rarely a sudden thing, it's always gradual and you can never quite put your finger on when winter is over. This year, admitedly was pretty odd though! One thing I love is at the end of Feb, people delight in the end of winter....er hold on! There's still March to come! Rarely do I consider March to be real Springtime. At least, not the early part. Snow is quite common for us then, as are low temperatures. In NZ, my expectations are different, since snow is basically impossible (in Wellington). I like a long, warm summer with lots of sun. 20C is perfectly sufficient for me. It allows you to basically do anything you want outside, and if the sun is blazing at UV index higher than 12 (fairly common in NZ) then any temperature above 25C is quite intolerable. How Aussies cope I'll never know! In winter there, a quality blast of southerly air is simply marvellous. Refreshment.....ah! Probably my favourite NZ weather is the Nor'Westers, which are pretty common. Standing on the lee side of mountains, getting puffed by hot air makes some people quite irritable but I find it very interesting, although horrible to work outside in. On the coastline, it really is marvellous, gusty, warm, humid air blowing straight at you. I could spend my life in it. If I had to choose one favourite month....I would cheat and choose the last 2 weeks of May combined with the first 2 weeks of June. In a good year, it is almost unbeatable for me. Temperatures can often hover in the low 20s (perfect), lots of sunshine, quite mild nights (but not stifling), and of course very long days! Only crimp is hayfever, I get it bad for a few days around this time, but rarely does it spoil my enjoyment of the period as a whole.

I reckon that on the summits of the highest Scottish hills you could get snowfalls in any season. Can anyone confirm this? But to have a permanent snow cap, you'd probably need to be looking at peaks of over 1500-2000m (this is a guesstimate), of which there are none in the UK.

johnholmes, thanks. I have amended my profile to reveal myself as a taffy! I think NZ had a pretty mild, settled autumn in general. Christchurch was exceeding 30C at the end of March. And was also exceeding 20C in May. Also, their first day of winter was milder than their first day of summer (by 6C)! It's interesting to see that on 31st August the NZ high was only 0.5C lower than the UK high on the same day (well, according to the BBC). Pretty amazing considering one country was in late summer and the other late winter. Just from memory it would appear that the mean 24 hour Spring temp in the UK is about the same as the mean 24 hour Winter temp in NZ. I think both are around and about 8C, or so. (I have a head for facts and numbers I'm afraid). Kiwi, I have driven past Waipu. I think it had a lot of Scottish settlers historically. It seemed a nice location to me, on a plain between a hilly range to the South and Whangarei (and many good beaches) to the North. I imagine that they are quite prone to flooding though. Northland is known as "The Winterless North", though this description is more common for the Far North district. This is due to the temperatures, certainly not the lack of rain! As for being wet, windy and overcast, Northland is not supposed to have cloudless days at any time of the year, and it definitely would not get crisp winter days (or nights for that matter). Rain is just the price that you pay for living on a thin finger of frost free land jutting into the sea, and for having very pleasurable mean daily maxes of 15C in winter and 24C in summer I think NZ was hit with El Nino in spring and early summer, and summer ended up being cool. However, a cool Northland summer would still be warmer than a normal British one. However, maybe your Dad is missing those lovely cloudless British summer days that we can get (except for in 2007!).

From http://www.niwascience.co.nz/ncc/cs/mclimsum_07_06 http://www.niwascience.co.nz/ncc/cs/mclimsum_07_07 http://www.niwascience.co.nz/ncc/cs/mclimsum_07_08 And a full summary at http://www.niwascience.co.nz/ncc/cs/sclimsum_07_3_winter (though they disgree on the whether the average temperature is 8.4C or 8.5C) Climate Summary for June 2007 Cold and wintry in the south, warmer in the north, sunny Temperature: Below average over much of the South Island, warmer in the north of the North Island Rainfall: Below normal in the northeast of the South Island, above normal in the south of the South Island Sunshine: Above average in many regions Wind: Rather windy at times over the south with strong westerlies and south westerlies Climate Summary for July 2007 A month of extremes and contrasts – severe floods; numerous damaging tornadoes and destructive winds in the north; ice and severe frost in the south Temperature: Below average in the lower South Island; above average throughout much of the North Island Rainfall: Well above normal in the north and east of the North Island, and coastal South Canterbury and Otago; below normal in the north and west of the South Island Sunshine: Above average in the west and south of the South Island; below average in the east of the North Island Wind: Easterly gales in the north, but quieter in the south Climate Summary for August 2007 Rainfall: Below normal in the north and east of the South Island, near or above normal in regions exposed to the west Temperature: Above average in the North Island, near average elsewhere Sunshine: Well above average in Wellington, Nelson, and inland South Canterbury Wind: More southwesterlies than normal; northwest gales during the second week Interesting stuff from August: Further Highlights The highest temperature during August 2007 was 22.2 °C recorded at Dunedin Airport on the 31st, their highest on record for August. The lowest air temperature during the month was -8.4 °C recorded at Hanmer Forest on the 20th. A grass minimum of -16.4 °C was recorded at Mt Cook Village on the 15th, their lowest on record for August. High rainfall at Milford Sound totalled 431 mm over the 96 hours (4–days) to 9am on the 12th, and 107 mm at Kerikeri Airport over the 24 hours to 9am on the 17th. Gale force northwesterlies buffeted many central and southern New Zealand regions over the 10th -12th, with several power lines damaged in parts of Otago. Of the five main centres, Auckland was the warmest, Dunedin the driest, Christchurch the coldest, Hamilton the wettest, and Wellington the sunniest. Interesting stuff for the winter as a whole: For the entire winter, the highest temperature was 22.4C, at Rangiora in June, and the lowest was -15.4C at Lauder in July. At Lauder (Central Otago), air temperatures were constantly below zero from July 12th to 21st, and there were 13 days from July 7 to 22 with minimum air temperatures below –10.0 °C. In contrast, temperatures were at least 0.5 °C above average throughout much of the North Island. --- For the winter, the national average temperature was 8.4C (24 hours mean temperature). It's interesting that August was 0.4C above normal, July 0.2C above normal and June 0.6C below normal. Which all outweigh each other in the end. All of this followed on from the warmest May in history..... http://www.niwascience.co.nz/ncc/cs/mclimsum_07_05 Climate Summary for May 2007 Warmest May on record Indian summer in many parts of New Zealand; flooding in Nelson and Taranaki Rainfall: Record low rainfall in the north and east, well above normal in Nelson Soil moisture: Significant deficits in the east of the North Island, as well as Otago Temperature: New Zealand’s warmest May in over 140 years of temperature measurements Sunshine: Above average in many regions, especially in the east The national average temperature was 12.4 °C (1.7 °C above normal); a new record for May, ...in other words quite a significant drop from May going into to June. --- Does any of this surprise anyone or confirm their personal predictions?