A complete list of the reasons ...

[snowsure]

Greetings again my snow loving friends!

I wonder why we are not yet panicking about the collapse of civilisation as we know it?

We are faced with flooding of biblical proportions and GMST hot enough to melt lead (well, you know what I mean!) but still we do not act.

With your help, I intend to compile a list. So, why are we not fearing the apocalyptic predictions?

Reason number 1:

It is not imminent. All the bad things will be happening in 10, 20, or 30 years time. Well to be honest I drink too much of an evening knowing full well I will have a headache 8 hours later. I have no intention of curtailing my habits as I know that I can deal with the consequences. Perhaps in 30 years time my liver may have something to say about this but, well, in 30 years time I am going to drown/burn to death so what's the point!

Reason number 2:

We cannot trust the weather man. Short range forecasts are not 100% accurate. If the weather models of today are the data inputs of the climate models of the future then the error accumulation could be massive. Show me a model that predicted, 5 years ago, that the climate of the UK would be exactly as it is today and I will re-consider my position.

Reason number 3:

The internet shows that snow events are still occuring and, let's be honest, GW predictions mean an end of the cyosphere. As long as it snows somewhere on this troubled planet of ours, many people will say that we are only going through a re-jig of the climate bands and not suffering a loss of romantic, Dickensian snow-scapes. The Maya predicted many, many years ago that the north and south ice fields would shift to the equator so perhaps we are experiencing this event.

If you can think of any other distinct reasons why people are suspicious of GW, please post them here and I will keep a count of them.

[Rustynailer]

Hi Snowsure,

The Mayan calender I am informed says that 2008 and 2012 are significant times of great upheaval.

If you don't mind me asking is there anywhere on the net where i could read Mayan Calendar or at least read about it?

I call Mother Nature Lady Luck or God b/w, and IMO she will decide, what will happen regarding GW. No computer weather model program will ever come close :lol:

I think you could put me down as a reason 3er :lol:

Regards,

Russ.

[snowsure]

Hi Snowsure,

The Mayan calender I am informed says that 2008 and 2012 are significant times of great upheaval.

If you don't mind me asking is there anywhere on the net where i could read Mayan Calendar or at least read about it?

I call Mother Nature Lady Luck or God b/w, and IMO she will decide, what will happen regarding GW. No computer weather model program will ever come close :lol:

I think you could put me down as a reason 3er :lol:

Regards,

Russ.

Thanks Russ.

Not sure how you reason could be worded. GW still happens if it is due to Mother Nature, Lady Luck or God. Are you suggesting that GW will not happen? If so, why not. Your post appears to say that it will happen.

Try this web site for a starter on the Mayan calendar: http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/JenkinsJM2-p1.htm

SS

[Iceberg]

I think spiders are really spreading the AGW myth, ever noticed how it's always the nutty professors with cobwebs in their hair that keep producing these detailed peer reviewed papers they have the nerve to say that just because they have 20-30 years experience they should be listened to ?.

I think they are being mind controlled by these spiders to say these things.

The big question we need to answer is why are the spiders doing this ?, Does the mayan calender mention something about spiders taking over Europe ?.

[Guest Daniel]

Greetings again my snow loving friends!

I wonder why we are not yet panicking about the collapse of civilisation as we know it?

We are faced with flooding of biblical proportions and GMST hot enough to melt lead (well, you know what I mean!) but still we do not act.

With your help, I intend to compile a list. So, why are we not fearing the apocalyptic predictions?

Reason number 1:

It is not imminent. All the bad things will be happening in 10, 20, or 30 years time. Well to be honest I drink too much of an evening knowing full well I will have a headache 8 hours later. I have no intention of curtailing my habits as I know that I can deal with the consequences. Perhaps in 30 years time my liver may have something to say about this but, well, in 30 years time I am going to drown/burn to death so what's the point!

Reason number 2:

We cannot trust the weather man. Short range forecasts are not 100% accurate. If the weather models of today are the data inputs of the climate models of the future then the error accumulation could be massive. Show me a model that predicted, 5 years ago, that the climate of the UK would be exactly as it is today and I will re-consider my position.

Reason number 3:

The internet shows that snow events are still occuring and, let's be honest, GW predictions mean an end of the cyosphere. As long as it snows somewhere on this troubled planet of ours, many people will say that we are only going through a re-jig of the climate bands and not suffering a loss of romantic, Dickensian snow-scapes. The Maya predicted many, many years ago that the north and south ice fields would shift to the equator so perhaps we are experiencing this event.

If you can think of any other distinct reasons why people are suspicious of GW, please post them here and I will keep a count of them.

Another reason is that the so called experts do not agree on climate change. Let us not for gate climate is allways changing. Also when we been wamer in the past we have done very well. For example we all like warmth better than cold. If global warming means that we in the U.K can sun bathe on the beach go round wearing light clothes grow bumper crops and vines Ext then I dont expect many of us would compain. Also another reason is that the changes that we are asked to make are very painful. We all love cars and there no way that we give them up. And the simple fact many of us do not care what goes on out side our Country. Also as our climate changes slowly we get used to warmer conditions so it not a big shock. As for the climate experts and the BBC they dont know what they are talking about. Only this time last year the BBC were telling us we all going to freeze. Now they tell us we going to fry. so what do you belive.

[Iceberg]

Let's tackle these sensibly then, although I don't know why.

1. It is imminent !. How can you be on a weather board but fail to notice the month by month record CET's or record high global temps. Climate scientists are saying that we are driving down a hill without proper brakes hence we won't stop so of course it will be worse in 10 20 30 years time.

2 Weather models of today are not the data inputs used by GCM's, GFS etc are for synoptic forecasting not global trend analysis. hence you don't use GFS to predict ENSO events in 6 months time.

3 not even worth answering, ice fields on the equator ? but you refuse to believe AGW um............

[West is Best]

Good thread Snowsure!

I honestly think a significant reason is the industrial lobby. They are past masters at marketing, and undoubtedly in my opinion fuel the notion that the scientific community is divided. They achieve this through out and out bribery on the one hand and misinformation on the other, both occurring within science where they can, and in the public arena. Science is nothing like as divided on this topic as you would imagine from the media.

Never underestimate the power of greed to corrupt the truth ...

[Gray-Wolf]

Let's tackle these sensibly then, although I don't know why.

3 not even worth answering, ice fields on the equator ? but you refuse to believe AGW um............

I don't know about the poles at the equator but maybe we should be more open to the predictive abilities of the Mayan astronomers. I believe that the meso-americans where in that area for in excess of 8 thousand years and during that time 'evolved' into the Mayans with their sun worshipping/solar predictions. Due to the nature of their 'colonisation' of the Americas they didn't undergo the social stresses and strains that we underwent in NW Europe and as such may have had the opportunity for long periods of solar/climatic observation enabling their priests unpresedented predictive powers. Did these obsevations include periods of external forcing on the earths climate due to precessional position/sunspot cycle/galactic alignment? I suppoose,had we not interferred with the atmospheres workings, we would find out very soon (2008-2012).

[Essan]

All the Mayans predicted (actually, predict isn;t really the right word ) is that their calendar cycle would come to an end in 2012 and the next onw begin.

It's on a par with me predicting that the current millennium will end on 31st December 3,000 ......

But that's all O/T. IMO public apathy about climate change is partly because any changes will be gradual. The sea level may rise 3ft in 100 years - but on a year to year basis we see little difference, so there seems little to be concerned about. Also, we're deluged with doom and gloom end of the world predictions these days - everything from supervolcanos to gamma ray bursts to terrorist nuclear attacks to Antarctica being the only place habitable by 2,100 ....... It's catastrophe overkill. It's easier to not worry about any than to worry about all of them....

Of course, there's also the fact that past predictions - not just with climate change but things like the millions of us now dying of nvCJD - have not transpired. So naturally we doubt any new predictions being made, even if they are more realistic and more informed than past ones were.

The big question though is why we continue to waste so much money on energy consumption and then moan about the cost of our energy bills? That's really does require some explaining ........

[jethro]

Erm, my understanding of the Mayan calendar isn't that the world ends or a new one begins circa 2012 but that their calendar calculations were based originally upon a date they calculated would occur in 2012, and their dates were worked backwards from this point. The basis for this is their belief that the Father would join the Mother Earth when the gateway from heaven opened and the path to earth was open. This is an Astrological marker; can't remember the precise details of exactly which planet/planets are involved but it is a something to do with an alignment of the Milky Way. It is supposed to mark the start of a great new beginning, not doom and gloom, end of the earth stuff so often read about. What is staggering is their ability to plot the heavens so accurately and their knowledge of procession when at that time wasn't the earth supposed to be flat??

[Rustynailer]

Thanks Russ.

Not sure how you reason could be worded. GW still happens if it is due to Mother Nature, Lady Luck or God. Are you suggesting that GW will not happen? If so, why not. Your post appears to say that it will happen.

Try this web site for a starter on the Mayan calendar: http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/JenkinsJM2-p1.htm

SS

You're welcome SS

Truth be known i can't really decide whether or not warming will happen. In my head, its all undecided fact wise. But my heart on the other-hand says cold not warm. By my heart i mean my gut feeling

Edit:- Undecided fact wise i will elaborate a bit. We can't possibly know all the facts that are truly relevant, on an astronomical scale we probably know less than we may think.

Example:-Pole shift, Would we would know the signs of it starting?

I would expect we would only recognizing the event when it truly gets started.

Thanks for the link i will look.

Regards.

Russ.

Edited November 14, 2006 by Rustynailer

[snowsure]

Let's tackle these sensibly then, although I don't know why.

1. It is imminent !. How can you be on a weather board but fail to notice the month by month record CET's or record high global temps. Climate scientists are saying that we are driving down a hill without proper brakes hence we won't stop so of course it will be worse in 10 20 30 years time.

2 Weather models of today are not the data inputs used by GCM's, GFS etc are for synoptic forecasting not global trend analysis. hence you don't use GFS to predict ENSO events in 6 months time.

3 not even worth answering, ice fields on the equator ? but you refuse to believe AGW um............

Thanks for tackling them Iceberg but that was not the purpose of the thread.

The thread is to compile a reason why you are not turning off your computer, selling your car and totally changing your lifestyle (Stop breathing so as to stop the CO2 going into the environment!)

Your comments regarding spiders concerns me. I assume flippancy on your part. As for your comments at the end regarding "... but you refuse to believe in AGW" is way off the mark.

Check my post and you will see that I have not disputed the presence of AGW and never will. Many people will question the impact of AGW against natural cycles but I do not question AGW.

Your comments suggests to me that you have mis-read my post. Thank you for your maturity regarding your posts. Your humour is appreciated.

All the Mayans predicted (actually, predict isn;t really the right word ) is that their calendar cycle would come to an end in 2012 and the next onw begin.

It's on a par with me predicting that the current millennium will end on 31st December 3,000 ......

But that's all O/T. IMO public apathy about climate change is partly because any changes will be gradual. The sea level may rise 3ft in 100 years - but on a year to year basis we see little difference, so there seems little to be concerned about. Also, we're deluged with doom and gloom end of the world predictions these days - everything from supervolcanos to gamma ray bursts to terrorist nuclear attacks to Antarctica being the only place habitable by 2,100 ....... It's catastrophe overkill. It's easier to not worry about any than to worry about all of them....

Of course, there's also the fact that past predictions - not just with climate change but things like the millions of us now dying of nvCJD - have not transpired. So naturally we doubt any new predictions being made, even if they are more realistic and more informed than past ones were.

The big question though is why we continue to waste so much money on energy consumption and then moan about the cost of our energy bills? That's really does require some explaining ........

Good post Essan.

Reason number 4:

It is the next in the long list of "this will kill you." The vaccuum left by the removal of the "Red Threat" was filled with Acid rain which was filled with AIDS, then BSE. What will it be next?

Your penultimate paragraph puts it very, very nicely.

Any more reasons, ladies and gentlemen?

[noggin]

Any more reasons, ladies and gentlemen?

Howzabout innate selfishness? My observations of people generally, over the past half century, indicate that a very large proportion of people are only concerned with themselves and the "here and now". I'm not saying that these people are doing this "positively" or "deliberately", more that it doesn't occur to them to be any other way.

Also, there are the "ignorant" people..........those who genuinely aren't aware of any effects that their behaviour may or may not have on the world around them.

Then there are the smaller groups, such as the cynics ("it's all a plot by the governments and media"), the ostriches and the "positively" selfish.

It is the next in the long list of "this will kill you." The vaccuum left by the removal of the "Red Threat" was filled with Acid rain which was filled with AIDS, then BSE. What will it be next?

Don't forget SARS and bird flu!

Edited November 15, 2006 by noggin

[snowsure]

Howzabout innate selfishness? My observations of people generally, over the past half century, indicate that a very large proportion of people are only concerned with themselves and the "here and now". I'm not saying that these people are doing this "positively" or "deliberately", more that it doesn't occur to them to be any other way.

Also, there are the "ignorant" people..........those who genuinely aren't aware of any effects that their behaviour may or may not have on the world around them.

Then there are the smaller groups, such as the cynics ("it's all a plot by the governments and media"), the ostriches and the "positively" selfish.

Don't forget SARS and bird flu!

Reason number 1: It is not imminent

Reason number 2: We cannot trust the weather man

Reason number 3: Snow events still occcur even though GW predicts an end of the cyosphere.

Reason number 4: It is the next in the long list of unfilifilled doom and gloom predictions.

Reason Number 5: Ignorance

Reason Number 6: Avoidance

Reason number 7: Selfishness

Good old SARS and bird flu. How could I ever forget them?

[trevw]

Hi,

for me the reasons I haven't ditched the car and moved into a log cabin at the end of the garden come down to two:

1) is that it isn't really possible given the current setup of society. My company won't let me work from home. My government won't give me any tax breaks for having an environmentally friendly home. Comuting by train is almost impossible given the journey. To afford childcare/a house/reasonable standard of living etc. I need to keep my current job... you get caught in a bit of a trap.

2) being an 'early adopter' of 'strong' green behaviour puts you at a severe disadvantage (cost/time etc. as above) so why be one of the ones to do it first? especially given the feeling that the problem is so large 'what can one persons contribution do?' let the really keen people blaze the trail and join in when it is not so painful..

oh, and laziness

trevw

[snowsure]

Hi,

for me the reasons I haven't ditched the car and moved into a log cabin at the end of the garden come down to two:

1) is that it isn't really possible given the current setup of society. My company won't let me work from home. My government won't give me any tax breaks for having an environmentally friendly home. Comuting by train is almost impossible given the journey. To afford childcare/a house/reasonable standard of living etc. I need to keep my current job... you get caught in a bit of a trap.

2) being an 'early adopter' of 'strong' green behaviour puts you at a severe disadvantage (cost/time etc. as above) so why be one of the ones to do it first? especially given the feeling that the problem is so large 'what can one persons contribution do?' let the really keen people blaze the trail and join in when it is not so painful..

oh, and laziness

trevw

Reason number 8: No financial incentive / high initial start-up costs

Reason number 9: Following the crowd so as not to appear different / inertia of society.

Going well so far. Any chance we can get 15 distinct reasons? Only need 6 more...

[noggin]

What about fatalism? The "if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen and there ain't nothin' I can do about it" attitude.

I'm enjoying this thread, snowsure..... thanks for starting it. Perhaps we could have one afterwards with suggestions about what the next thing is that will sweep the Earth and wipe most of us out. :lol:

Edited November 16, 2006 by noggin

[PersianPaladin]

It's good to be sceptical, but there is nothing conspiratorial about the seeming 'global warming agenda' in the media and politics. There is a good amount of consensus not only across a broad field of scientists, but also the research seems to be highly credible and carefully evaluated. We do have complex feedback mechanisms involving such things like changing albedo, oceanic current re-distribution ensuing water melt, moisture redistribution, etc which may seem like the warming is not taking place at all in certain regions.

If you want to ask a lay person in Britain, he'll tell you that winters are nowhere near as snowy as they used to be back yonder. Hell, this summer was the warmest ever in Britain apparently - and it seemed to go on all through September and into the first two weeks of October.

I think we should keep a close eye on the El Nino\La Nina current and monitor the intensity and rapidity of its oscillations in response to the changing ice picture in Antarctica. There has been a recorded link: -

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/cold-...06-nino-ice.htm

Ocean currents and their changes are not only likely to change the fertility of the sea but of course, the different degree of salinity will actually affect the interactions between currents. We should watch these closely. Anamolously high ocean temperatures across the equatorial region of the Atlantic contributed to 2005's bumper hurricane season, but also to the serious rainfall shortage in the Amazon which led to increased heating due to the lower humidity.

If CO2 is indeed building in our atmosphere and the 'green-house' affect is clearly appliable to our planet; then that heat will be directed back - and the most sensitive places for that are our oceans and ice caps.

Edited November 16, 2006 by PersianPaladin

[snowsure]

What about fatalism? The "if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen and there ain't nothin' I can do about it" attitude.

I'm enjoying this thread, snowsure..... thanks for starting it. Perhaps we could have one afterwards with suggestions about what the next thing is that will sweep the Earth and wipe most of us out. :blink:

Reason number 1: It is not imminent

Reason number 2: We cannot trust the weather man

Reason number 3: Snow events still occcur even though GW predicts an end of the cyosphere.

Reason number 4: It is the next in the long list of unfilifilled doom and gloom predictions.

Reason Number 5: Ignorance

Reason Number 6: Avoidance

Reason number 7: Selfishness

Reason number 8: No financial incentive / high initial start-up costs

Reason number 9: Following the crowd so as not to appear different / inertia of society.

Reason number 10: Fatalism!

Thanks for the few kind words from those who appreciate this thread.

5 more reasons would be good!

[noggin]

5 more reasons would be good! :blink:

5! You're a hard taskmaster! Time to get the old thinking cap back on..... :blink:

[Wynn D Woo]

Tough to think of more reasons, How about, hot sunny weather in the (UK) summer's a good thing anyway - better than cool wet and windy!

[noggin]

I hadn't thought of that one, windswept. The "some like it hot" brigade!

Not that I am one of those, heaven forbid......I like it as as possible!

Edited November 17, 2006 by noggin

[jethro]

How about the opposite? GW could lead to our winters getting colder/snowier, lots of people miss or haven't experienced an old style winter, the gulf stream diminishing or shutting down could appear very attractive if that's what you want.

Or, the arguement of; until the super powers like USA and Australia play ball and reduce emissions there isn't any point in me turning off a light bulb/it can't be all that bad because the USA and Australia don't take it seriously.

Religion? God has a grand scheme, it'll be ok in the end.

[snowsure]

Reason number 11: Preference for hot weather so inaction will cause it

Reason number 12: Preference for cold weather so inaction will cause it!

Reason number 13: It will be alright in the end (perhaps the same as fatalism?)

Hard taskmaster? Turn that light off otherwise I will ask for 5 more reasons!

[The Penguin]

. . . . until the super powers like USA and Australia play ball and reduce emissions there isn't any point in me turning off a light bulb/it can't be all that bad because the USA and Australia don't take it seriously.

A bit unfair on Australia. Although its certainly large in land mass terms, the population is just over 20 million. That's smaller than most European countries and under a tenth the population of the USA. So as a sparsely inhabited continent with zillions of bits of non-human flora and fauna I'd say it has less to be ashamed of than most.