December 1981-January 1982

[Don]

5 hours ago, A Face like Thunder said:

Friday 11th Dec was bad, bad, bad in Surrey, leading to the cancellation of a farewell party at work as staff made a quick getaway to try and get home before they were stranded by the snow. I managed it .... just. Sat 12th and Sun 13th were beautiful days, quite Alpine to view, but the nights were freezing, with the temperature on the Epsom Downs falling to 6F, -14.4C. 

I remember the 8th-13th December period surprisingly well in Surrey, considering I was just 5 years old!  Had a covering of snow on the morning of the 8th, followed by two days of dry weather, but Friday 11th was epic!  I remember Saturday being dry and sunny with deep snow cover and my excitement was re-ignited Sunday afternoon when the snow started up again.  However, this was to be very short lived, as come evening, it turned to rain with a thaw underway!  In the days running up to Christmas, many places had more significant snow, but my area largely missed out.  However, there was still a slight covering on the ground Christmas Day.

The best snowfall of winter 81/82 for me occurred after the first week of January, lasting more than a week, before milder weather arrived, effectively heralding the end of winter for significant cold weather.

[stewfox]

Remember it well. The bus skidding on the way to college on my mums birthday 

[cheeky_monkey]

1 hour ago, Summer8906 said:

Possible I guess that the heavy snow I remember was Fri 11th and not Tues 8th, just going off the old newspaper forecasts above.

Can't remember the day of week in all honesty, except it was a weekday.

I guess it's conceivable the Fri 11th event produced "wet snow" where I was a little further south and slightly thawed the first round on the 8th.

Looking at the newspaper reports again it looks like the south coast resorts did particularly badly this month for snow, just like they did in the (less severe) December 1995. Repeated partial incursions of milder air (which were then pushed back again) being to blame; looks like northern France would have had a very frustrating time in Dec 1981 often being in the mild air south of the frontal systems.

Would be very interested to hear any reports of the southwestern part of Surrey, northwestern part of Sussex or inland eastern Hampshire in particular.

it was defiently the 8th that the first snow set it..i too was at school ..the Friday was one of those forecast snow event that didnt happen in my area  but other parts of the south got a dumping..sunday i remember the snow started early morning and had blizzards well into the afternoon before it turned back to rain..think the cold returned from Tuesday so the mild spell was short lived.

[MarkW]

 Summer8906 No, December 21st 1979. It was the 79-80 season. Although December 1978 was bad.

[A Face like Thunder]

11 hours ago, MarkW said:

No, December 21st 1979. It was the 79-80 season. Although December 1978 was bad.

A good memory. I am a Crystal Palace fan of many years standing and I can confirm that there was a gap in fixtures over the weekend of 21st / 22nd Dec 1979 which was obviously caused by the sudden snowfall, although I don't remember it and was probably not going to the match anyway. The match v WBA was rearranged, strangely, for a Saturday (26th Jan 1980), perhaps because both teams were out of the FA Cup which was played that day, and it ended 2-2, Hilaire and Kember the home scorers.

The last week of 1979 was very wet in the SE but no snow.

The last week of 1978 was snowy in the SE and was the start of the long 'Winter of Discontent'.    

[MarkW]

 A Face like Thunder  I recall how we got there. Back then it was Staples Corner, Kilburn, Cricklewood, Hyde Park Corner, Westminster and then on through South London.   I remember going past the TV /Radio masts at Crystal Palace on the hill. When we got there, my father asked if he could park the car on the club car park. The attendant said , " they called it off 20 minutes ago". We ended up eating our packed sandwiches, near St Paul's before heading back. 

We went to the rearranged game and we sat in the Arthur Waite Stand. We were 2-0 down and scored two in two minutes to get a draw (Ally Robertson and Cyrille Regis with the goals). I think Steve Kember's goal deflected off Remi Moses (on Moses' debut I think). We were out of the Cup so it was rearranged for 4th round day. We'd lost to the eventual winners West Ham in the 3rd round. 

[Summer8906]

Been looking at the Guardian weather forecasts and one notable feature is no mention of that storm which produced a temporary thaw on the 13th Dec 1981, in the forecast for the 12th. Indeed no mention of organised snow, either, just ongoing very cold and snow showers.

I wonder if the storm of the 13th caught out the forecasters and it was originally forecast to move south over France? I do remember the storm of the 13th produced a lot of wind and rain but no lasting snow (perhaps snow-to-rain, not sure as it happened during the night) and consequently thawed all the snow where I was in NW Sussex, sadly. The 14th was slightly milder than average with extremely "Atlantic" type weather and strong westerlies. The snow did come back a few days later, though a thinner covering this time - but very icy.

I remember the converse happened on one occasion during Jan 1985, there was a similar intense storm forecast to bring blizzards to the south around the 16th/17th, but it moved further south than expected with no new snow at all. 7 Feb 1996 produced a similar more-southerly-tracking storm with a further no-show of forecast heavy snow. Sadly on both occasions the next low was much further north and produced a thaw in both cases!

One similarity between Dec 1981 and Jan 1979 is how the far south seemed to be less cold, the low track was far enough north to introduce temporary mild incursions into the south in both cases. This can be contrasted to Jan 1985, Feb 1986 and Jan 1987 which kept any mild air well south until the final thaw. Nonetheless Dec 1981 remains the most impressive December for weather in my lifetime, the snow being thicker and heavier than 2010 and with considerably more days of snow-cover.

Edited November 24 by Summer8906

[Summer8906]

On 06/11/2024 at 11:07, A Face like Thunder said:

The last week of 1979 was very wet in the SE but no snow.

I seem to remember Christmas Day and the immediate following days being very wet and dull but the final days of the year being colder and brighter, though I did spend the final 3 days or so in the NW.

I remember 31 Dec 1979 as being a rare sunny New Year's Eve in the Manchester area, leading into a sunny and frosty start to the 80s. Can't remember the temp on 31/12/79 but looks like it was cold, I also remember a full moon appearing at dusk and walking outside as it was getting dark in the light of the moon. (I have confirmed that there was indeed a full moon on 31/12/79, see fourmilab.ch/yoursky)

Edited November 24 by Summer8906

[A Face like Thunder]

 Summer8906 an interesting post, thank you. I'm not sure I agree on the 'temporary thaw' on 13th December 1981. I was in the Surrey / North Downs area at the time, and I can confirm that Sat 12th December was a truly 'Alpine' day, with photos to prove it, followed by the coldest of nights with temperatures falling as low as 6F (-14.4C) at Epsom Downs (Currie). In his very good book, 'The Surrey Weather Book', Currie went on to say that on Sunday night 13th Dec, 100 drivers were trapped in a blizzard and forced to take refuge in the Berni Inn, Tattenham Corner. This certainly fits in with my recollections of this memorable weekend, weather-wise, and, once the snow set in on 7th/8th Dec, I recall it was lying on the ground into the New Year. Philip Eden reported a severe gale on the 13th Dec which caused damage in the West Country and an associated storm surge which resulted in coastal flooding around the Bristol Channel. Perhaps this was the storm which resulted in the 'temporary thaw' but it was certainly further west than Surrey.

I agree about the similarities between Dec 1981 and Jan 1979, but query how far south you believe the 'less cold' weather was situated. My recollections of these two months in Surrey was of more-or-less continuous cold which, in the case of 1979, carried on right the way through to April and even early May, and these are confirmed by both Eden and Currie

 

[Summer8906]

 A Face like Thunder I was in Sussex not far south of Haslemere so it appears I was just on the "wrong" side of the divide during that temporary thaw.

Snow fell on one day during the week of the 7th though I can't remember which, and it did produce a good cover.

I can't remember Sat 12th specifically, I have to admit, but I do remember Sun 13th being very cold but with increasing As cloud. The Sun 13 event definitely turned to rain and the 14th then had nil snow cover and was Atlantic and mildish with a strong westerly and blustery showers. Must have been a knife-edge divide if Tattenham Corner, probably 30-35 miles as the crow files from my location, kept the cold! I guess the front, with sharp temp contrast, must have been near static somewhere towards the southwest of Surrey.

Interestingly the archives seem to suggest the Atlantic air penetrating as far north as the Midlands but evidently that wasn't the case.

The cold did come back though soon afterwards with the solstice/run up to Christmas having snow on the ground once again, albeit thinner.

Interestingly Southampton had a mean max for Dec 1981 as high as 6.0, incredibly half a degree higher than Jan 1997, so coastal South Hampshire must have had a distinctly disappointing month with people down here frequently looking enviously at snow scenes perhaps just 30 to 40 miles further north.

Edited November 24 by Summer8906

[Weather-history]

 

Nottingham                                                   Sevenoaks

     

Burnley                                                        Rugeley

    

 

Daily Telegraph           Staffordshire                 

                                                              

[I remember Atlantic 252]

near where I live Rugeley, used to go through it on the bus, whilst on way to lichfield

[cheeky_monkey]

On 24/11/2024 at 05:20, Summer8906 said:

Been looking at the Guardian weather forecasts and one notable feature is no mention of that storm which produced a temporary thaw on the 13th Dec 1981, in the forecast for the 12th. Indeed no mention of organised snow, either, just ongoing very cold and snow showers.

I wonder if the storm of the 13th caught out the forecasters and it was originally forecast to move south over France? I do remember the storm of the 13th produced a lot of wind and rain but no lasting snow (perhaps snow-to-rain, not sure as it happened during the night) and consequently thawed all the snow where I was in NW Sussex, sadly. The 14th was slightly milder than average with extremely "Atlantic" type weather and strong westerlies. The snow did come back a few days later, though a thinner covering this time - but very icy.

 

no this storm was defiently forecast i remember it well..the problem was the forecast was not sure how far north and east the mild weather would reach ..it was a very similar snow to rain event to the one i posted about that happened Jan 1979

[Don]

On 24/11/2024 at 12:20, Summer8906 said:

 

I wonder if the storm of the 13th caught out the forecasters and it was originally forecast to move south over France? I do remember the storm of the 13th produced a lot of wind and rain but no lasting snow (perhaps snow-to-rain, not sure as it happened during the night) and consequently thawed all the snow where I was in NW Sussex, sadly. 

I remember the converse happened on one occasion during Jan 1985, there was a similar intense storm forecast to bring blizzards to the south around the 16th/17th, but it moved further south than expected with no new snow at all. 7 Feb 1996 produced a similar more-southerly-tracking storm with a further no-show of forecast heavy snow. Sadly on both occasions the next low was much further north and produced a thaw in both cases!

 

In north west Surrey, there was heavy snow during the afternoon of the 13th December 1981.  However, it turned to heavy rain during the evening with a thaw overnight.  Like you say, the cold did return with a smaller amount of snow, which was still on the ground Christmas Day.

I remember the forecast for blizzards in January 1985 which didn't materialise and was very disappointed.  The cold spell ended a few days later and we entered a mild period.  However, the cold returned by the second week of February, with more snow.

On 24/11/2024 at 13:44, A Face like Thunder said:

Perhaps this was the storm which resulted in the 'temporary thaw' but it was certainly further west than Surrey.

There was definitely a thaw in north west Surrey later on the 13th and the following few days.

Edited November 27 by Don

[damianslaw]

Too young to remember this winter. Have photos from Dec 81 of deep snow. We retained a snow cover from the 8th to the end of the year. There was a slow thaw around New Year, then the cold came back quick. I don't think the Lake District received much snow in Jan 82 though. The 8 Dec 81 to 15 Jan 82 in timescales and depth of cold was very akin to 24 Nov to 27 Dec 10 with a mini thaw before deep cold came back. 

 

Edited November 27 by damianslaw

[Summer8906]

11 hours ago, Don said:

There was definitely a thaw in north west Surrey later on the 13th and the following few days.

Looks like it was perhaps a west/east gradient more than anything, because the thaw also happened in SW Surrey (I was in NW Sussex, but Surrey was just down the road). Amazing to think that Tattenham Corner, not so very far away, held on to the deep snowfall. Like Jan 1979, it was one of those months where you were really disadvantaged being in the "greater southwest". It is quite a staggering statistic that Jan 1997 had a mean day max 0.5C lower than Dec 1981 in Southampton, and th

As for my location we got a decent snowfall the week before the 13th (forget the day but it was a schoolday hence Mon-Fri) - could have been either the 8th or the 11th by the looks of things. Might even have got two separate falls on the 8th and the 11th, I can't remember. But I do remember the 13th being a big bust - the thaw was not forecast.

As for when the cold came back I can't remember but looking at the archives we only had westerlies on the 14th, with a slider low producing SE-lies again by the 15th. The slider low went south, so possibly cold was back as early as the 15th.

There was then further snow, it was a fairly thin covering but it didn't thaw and it was often frozen solid - ISTR the week leading up to the 25th or so being very cold indeed but with only a moderate snow cover. But then the final thaw happened rather quickly, far earlier than further north where apparently snow was on the ground right to the end of the year.

All that said, Dec 1981 is still the most impressive December for snow of my lifetime. 2010 had less in the way of mild incursions but also less total days of snowcover - but probably living close to the coast didn't help. Perhaps in NW Sussex and West Surrey 2010 had more snow lying days than 1981.

 

Edited November 28 by Summer8906

[Summer8906]

Found this related thread:

Of particular interest are the reports from @Severe Blizzard from Fleet, Hampshire which was local to me.

Looks like the initial snow I remember was on the 8th and then there was another bout on the 11th. I don't remember the second attempted thaw on the weekend of the 19th/20th at all, though.

Edited November 28 by Summer8906

[Don]

12 hours ago, Summer8906 said:

Amazing to think that Tattenham Corner, not so very far away, held on to the deep snowfall.

I always remember east Surrey often doing better than west Surrey for snow during the 80's winters.  I think it was a combination of being further east and higher elevation, being in the vicinity of the North Downs?

12 hours ago, Summer8906 said:

As for my location we got a decent snowfall the week before the 13th (forget the day but it was a schoolday hence Mon-Fri) - could have been either the 8th or the 11th by the looks of things. Might even have got two separate falls on the 8th and the 11th, I can't remember. But I do remember the 13th being a big bust - the thaw was not forecast.

That's correct, there was a snowfall early on Tuesday 8th and then another more significant snowfall on Friday 11th.  I assume that would have been the same for Sussex?

12 hours ago, Summer8906 said:

All that said, Dec 1981 is still the most impressive December for snow of my lifetime. 2010 had less in the way of mild incursions but also less total days of snowcover - but probably living close to the coast didn't help. Perhaps in NW Sussex and West Surrey 2010 had more snow lying days than 1981.

 

I think the snowfalls in December 2010 were probably less marginal than those in 1981, benefitting areas nearer to the coast?

[Summer8906]

 Don the main Dec 1981 snowfall was in the afternoon, I remember that. I think it started as rain and then became heavy snow and remember walking home from school (in daylight, probably about 3.30pm) in a good cover of snow. Can't recall if it was a Tues or a Fri though.

However I do remember the snow staying a good few days and it thawing on the evening of the 13th which suggests it might have been the 8th.

The fact it started as rain also supports the 8th as it suggests it happened as the cold air was arriving. It might then have been topped up by a second event on the 11th but the main one I remember was the initial fall.

The big difference between 1981 and 2010 was that I lived near the coast in the latter year, hence it was "inherently" less snowy. We did get a good cover on Dec 1/2 (forget which) but it only lasted a couple of days, already thawing by Sat 4th. Then the second bout (less heavy) on the 18th lasted around three days again before another marginal snow/rain event on the 21st or so melted all the lying snow. So only around 5-6 days of lying snow in total in 2010. At my location in 1981 we probably had 10-15 or so, but the post-thaw snow after the 14th was a thinner covering.

Doubtless NW Sussex had it better in 2010 as I remember snow still lying in the Basingstoke area on around the 23rd/24th, so the thaw never reached there.

Edited November 29 by Summer8906