2009 - Snow-patches Surviving On Scottish Mountains

[Cookie]

their mustn't be many patches left after all the recent heat!

[firefly]

Excellent work!

Bizarre coincidence, as I just got off the phone to a local at Loch Tay who informed me that Ben More still had a wee bit left! Weird!

Looks to be around 10m in length, and if it lasts this week then I'll be surprised.

[Zerouali lives]

My annual golf tournament at Braemar on Saturday and there appeared to be less snow than last year. I did see 2 very small patches on the dramatic looking eastern face of Lochnager. The mountain with all the snow on it last year (the most stand out mountain as one looks NW from Braemar golf course - not sure, might be South Top) had considerably less this year with maybe 2 or 3 small patches barely visible. Sorry no camera to take shots!

[firefly]

Zerouali,

The mountain you refer to is Beinn a'Bhuird. It had a huge wreath on its south-facing slope last year on the 1st July. This patch (called the Laird's Tablecloth, on account of its name) was split in two this year, with much ground between the two existing patches.

For sure there's less than this year, but about the same as 2007. The attached panorama was taken from the top of Glas Maol, and if you zoom in you can see most of the Cairngorms big mountains, complete with the remaining snow patches that face S-E etc. Many more are hidden, obviously, but this gives a good idea of what's there.

For those interested, the mountain with the most snow is Ben Macdui, which is in the centre of the picture. The Laird's Tablecloth is towards the right of the picture, before Ben A'an (and its torrs).

Edited July 7, 2009 by firefly

[Norrance]

Firefly

I couldn't open your photo of the Lairds Tablecloth for some reason.

Still a patch of snow hanging on on Ben More at the weekend. Did not go up Glen Lochay so not sure if any left on Heasgarnich?

Sorry, just noticed that there is a post above about Ben More's snow patch.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Norrance

[firefly]

Don't worry, Norrance, I've heard from a source on south Loch Tay that Beinn Heasgarnich's snow is now gone. Actually, it went a couple of weeks ago, which is unusually early.

I would think that Ben More's snow is either in its last day or possibly 2. My south Tay contact can see it from his window, so will get an accurate melt date. :lol:

[Zerouali lives]

Firefly,

I noticed there were 55 survivals during the summer of 1994!

Do you know where some of the more uncommon/low lying patches were that year?

Thanks

[firefly]

Sure do! I know where most of them where...

1994's lowest altitude survival was at Lochan nan Gabhar, Ben A'an. It was at 935m on a north-easterly aspect. That year loads of snow survived that doesn't otherwise, such as Creag Meagaidh.

A northeast-facing patch at 840m nearly survived in 1972 at Coire na Ciste on Cairn Gorm. Still 15m long on 11 October, it would have lasted if heavy snow had fallen as in some early Octobers, but it vanished by 4 November.

The lowest patch of snow ever to survive on Scotland's hills (that I am aware of) was at 740m on Ben A'an at this location. This happened in 1951 and 1967.

Other places were snow has survived where you wouldn't expect it to have are the Mamores and the Grey Corries!

[osmposm]

What a fantastic panorama, Firefly - THANK YOU!!

[firefly]

Haven't heard if Ben More's gone, but I expect it has. Probably a couple of days ago.

Also, what a difference a month makes. Check out the two pictures (courtesy of Stuart Gordon), taken exactly a month apart (14th June and July) at the Feith Buidhe slabs, Cairngorms. Twenty feet of melting?

[Terminal Moraine]

Blimey! It really does make you realise how difficult it is for any snow patch to survive a whole summer and through into the next 'season' when that amount of snow can disappear in a month.

[stewfox]

Blimey! It really does make you realise how difficult it is for any snow patch to survive a whole summer and through into the next 'season' when that amount of snow can disappear in a month.

So how many patches left now ?

[firefly]

So how many patches left now ?

Still lots left. We won't start talking specific numbers until about the end of August. Still in the hundreds at present.

Best of it is that the snow patch in the pic probably collapsed and melted in a day or two. Fragile things snow patches.

No, I don't think that's right. The snow that you are referring to will have melted slowly. The only time when patches crack up and collapse in on themselves is when they are being melted from the bottom, as when a patch sits on bare bedrock. Even this takes a while, and certainly more than a couple of days.

I was up the Ben Nevis range of hills yesterday (Aonach Mor & Aonach Beag), and the results of my journey are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/sets/72157621646627828/

Encountered 3 patches that exceeded 200m long, and many more that were smaller. Going back for a look there on the 22nd August if anyone's interested!

[firefly]

If you fancy a day on the hill on the 22nd August then me and a couple of others are heading up to Ben Nevis to see the snow there. Details are here: http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,106947

Cheers.

[Norrance]

Firefly [or others],

I would be interested to know how many patches will survive into August outwith the Cairngorms / Nevis Range areas this year?

How will the answer compare with 2008?

Thanks

Nor.

[Cymro]

well with a cold spell of weather currently on the cards this should bear well for the snow patches shouldn't it? surly some could be around 4/5 years old if you think of the survivers from last year?

[firefly]

Ah, Norrance, I can tell you're a good Scot! No-one in England uses the word 'outwith', and I don't know how they get by without it! As for what snow will survive outwith Nevis Range and the Cairngorms into August, that's quite tricky...

The most southerly snow still extant in Scotland is a patch on Bidean nam Bian, between the Bidean itself and Stob Coire nam Beith (see attached picture). Farther east (and north), there are still a couple of reasonable sized patches on the Aisre Cham of Geal-charn (Ben Alder hills, see attached picture).

There will also be snow on the Strathfarrar hills (Sgurr na Lapaich etc), but I haven't seen a recent report, so can't comment on how much. For sure, there will still be some. I'm also reasonably confident Carn Eighe/Mam Sodhail will have a wee bit, but - again - I haven't seen any recent photographs to confirm that. Other than these, I'm scratching my head a wee bit to think what others there will be. None at Grey Corries or Mamores. None south of Glencoe. Nothing left on the Monadh Liath, either. There may possibly be a wee bit lurking here or there, but I can't imagine much will last into August.

As for how old some of the snow is... Nothing in Scotland is older than late 2006 (a year that saw all snow melt by October), so by my reckoning the snow that dates from this period (November/December 2006) are: Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach (2 patches); Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis; Aonach Beag. In all, 4 patches that are approaching 3-years old.

Put it into perspective: when the snow melted at Garbh Choire Mor in 1996, it had been present for 37-years, as the last time it melted before that was 1959. I kid you not! I've uploaded some pictures of a snow-free Garbh Choire Mor from 1959 here. Compare that to the photos I took on the 27th September 2008, which are here*.

* - Two interesting things about that photograph are: 1) the impressive covering of pohlia wahlenbergii moss, which grows near to long-lying snow patches in Scotland, but is absent (apparently) from England. 2) I believe that on this day I observed Britain's highest recorded amphibian, which jumped out from behind the snow-patch at the top. Altitude was 3700ft, and the record was confirmed to me by the famous Scottish ecologist Adam Watson.

Edited July 28, 2009 by firefly

[Thundery wintry showers]

One thing that strikes me about the survival of Scottish snow is that whereas in continental Europe the retention of annual ice is commonly associated with how hot and dry the summers are, in Scotland it seems the winters are the bigger factor. For instance summer 1976 was hotter than 1959 yet some snow patches survived, and I remember 1990 and 1995 being down as years with quite high survival (frequent westerly winds and polar maritime incursions in the winter must have helped in all three cases, I think 1995 might also have been helped by repeated spring snowfalls but springs 1976 and 1990 were mostly mild).

I guess that 1959 will have suffered because spring, summer and autumn were all mild, February was very dry and although January was very cold and snowy in north Scotland it was also exceptional for persistence of northerly winds which will have caused a lot of the snow to accumulate on exposed south-facing slopes.

I've got a feeling that survival this year will be below last year but not exceptionally low (maybe close to the 6 that survived in 1999) but only time will tell.

[firefly]

Thundery wintry showers,

I assume you've got a good weather almanac, as you trip off the weather stats with consumate ease! I don't have such an almanac, but will say this...

The thing that saved the snow-patches in 1976 wasn't so much the volume of snow that fell in winter, but rather the exceptionally early snows of later on that year. Lasting snow came to the Cairngorms' patches (2-off) in the first week of September! The 2 patches (Garbh Choire Mor) would certainly have melted but for this early snow. Check out Adam Watson's picture from the 19th September, about 11 days after those big falls.

Fast forward nearly a month to the 2nd October and John Pottie's photograph of the Sphinx patch at Garbh Choire Mor and you can see the new snow sitting on top of the old, acting as an insulating blanket. It's a wonderful picture.

As for how many will survive this year... it's too early to say. Your estimate, I feel, though, is likely to be accurate. Tell me this... why such an interest? :lol: I'm curious!

[Thundery wintry showers]

I don't have one individual source as an almanac- I have a combination of different sources, including my own browing of the WZ archives, a few of Philip Eden's books, Trevor Harley's Britweather site, the CET series, and my own analysis. Many of the notable past weather events end up sticking in my memory. January 1959, for instance, stuck because I widely saw it referenced as being the sunniest January on record, checked out the archives fully expecting to see an anticyclonic month, and was shocked to see that it was largely dominated by a Greenland High and northerly winds.

I have a wide-ranging interest in meteorology that has developed over the years, the weather types I take the most interest in are convective storms (including thunderstorms) and snow, and I also have a very keen interest in synoptic climatology- especially winter snow setups.

I'm also doing a related analysis on "winter snowiness" over the UK, it's been stopped in its tracks recently because of other things, but my latest revision covers the years back to 1950.

So my fascination with Scottish snow patch survival comes from a combination of that, and reading the annual articles on it in Weather.

[firefly]

Sorry to debase this excellent thread, but what is the Latin/technical name for a "SnowPatchoPhile"??

I can't believe that I have a fetish for this, of all the things to have a fetish for....SnowPatches???!!!

Yes, tell me about it! I don't know what the Latin name for one that loves snow, but the Greek term is chionophile.

TWS, glad you read the "Weather" journal. I don't know if I've posted it on this forum, but I'm a co-author of that paper.

[kippure]

Thundery wintry showers,

I assume you've got a good weather almanac, as you trip off the weather stats with consumate ease! I don't have such an almanac, but will say this...

The thing that saved the snow-patches in 1976 wasn't so much the volume of snow that fell in winter, but rather the exceptionally early snows of later on that year. Lasting snow came to the Cairngorms' patches (2-off) in the first week of September! The 2 patches (Garbh Choire Mor) would certainly have melted but for this early snow. Check out Adam Watson's picture from the 19th September, about 11 days after those big falls.

Fast forward nearly a month to the 2nd October and John Pottie's photograph of the Sphinx patch at Garbh Choire Mor and you can see the new snow sitting on top of the old, acting as an insulating blanket. It's a wonderful picture.

As for how many will survive this year... it's too early to say. Your estimate, I feel, though, is likely to be accurate. Tell me this... why such an interest? I'm curious!

Was this the day the snow fell.

[Troubleatmill]

"There will also be snow on the Strathfarrar hills (Sgurr na Lapaich etc), but I haven't seen a recent report, so can't comment on how much. For sure, there will still be some. I'm also reasonably confident Carn Eighe/Mam Sodhail will have a wee bit, but - again - I haven't seen any recent photographs to confirm that. Other than these, I'm scratching my head a wee bit to think what others there will be. None at Grey Corries or Mamores. None south of Glencoe. Nothing left on the Monadh Liath, either. There may possibly be a wee bit lurking here or there, but I can't imagine much will last into August".

Hi Firefly, i can vouch for there still being some snow left in the Glen Affic Hills just to the south of the Strathfarrar hills,i was up there last week going from Canich to Morvich and although i couldnt see any on Carn Eighe there was this largish patch on Tom a Choinich (with a smaller patch just visible), probably one of the last few remaining patches north of the great glen?

Edited August 3, 2009 by arron123

[firefly]

Thanks, Arron - a good clear photograph. What date was it taken?

Interesting that you didn't see any on Carn Eige or Mam Sodhail. I am not terribly familiar with the hills of Affric/Strathfarrar so can't say which ones are likely to be still holding snow, but Tom a'Choinich is well known for holding snow, and - indeed - snow survived at the location your picture shows, in 1951 and 1955. Other hills where snow is likely to last (and where survivals have also been noted) are Sgurr na Lapaich, An Riabhachan and Toll Creagach. I'm fairly sure these 3 hills will still have some, somewhere!

I agree it's likely this is one of the few remaining north of the Great Glen.

Thanks again.

[Troubleatmill]

Thanks, Arron - a good clear photograph. What date was it taken?

Interesting that you didn't see any on Carn Eige or Mam Sodhail. I am not terribly familiar with the hills of Affric/Strathfarrar so can't say which ones are likely to be still holding snow, but Tom a'Choinich is well known for holding snow, and - indeed - snow survived at the location your picture shows, in 1951 and 1955. Other hills where snow is likely to last (and where survivals have also been noted) are Sgurr na Lapaich, An Riabhachan and Toll Creagach. I'm fairly sure these 3 hills will still have some, somewhere!

I agree it's likely this is one of the few remaining north of the Great Glen.

Thanks again.

Hi Firefly,

That photo was taken last Thursday mate, There maybe a snow patch or two left on the east or north face of Carn Eige,unfortunately i just dropped down into the glen before the east face came into view, but certainly nothing on the south or west perspectives as you would expect. just out of interest do you know if there are any snow patches left on any south or west facing slopes in Scotland?

Cheers

Arron

Edited August 3, 2009 by arron123