spindrift1980

A stoater of a snow-depth chart on the models thread - I think this is the very definition of Fantasy Island - if the reality even begins to resemble this I'll be happy! A bit of snow on the tops of the Ochils today which is a start....

Are these temperatures on the second chart 'corrected' to sea level in the way that pressure charts are? Wasn't sure what the 2m in the title referred to? Cheers

Feeling raw in East Kilbride - going down to 3c or so in the heaviest showers with a raw wind.

Some of us find snow for Scottish mountains very interesting indeed.

A decent covering of snow on some of the Scottish ski area webcams today - most will be stripped away by milder air and rain tomorrow mind you, but a few freeze-thaw cycles aren't a bad thing, and hopefully we will see a good bit more over the next week or two at least. Still not especially optimistic about the winter overall though, particularly for snow on low ground. http://www.winterhighland.info/weather/

Fraid so - after some promise in mid-October I am struggling to remember any November in which there has been so little wintry ppn over Scottish mountains. This time last year everything above about 700m asl was white - a couple of weeks later everything above 0m asl was white! That said, the typical pattern going back decades is for the Scottish ski-season only to really get going after Christmas, even into the new year in the west. The last two years were not really typical. Last year was almost a reversal of the usual pattern, with a real lack of spring snow. There have also been seasons like 2002-3 with a massive early dump of snow but underwhelming levels of snow thereafter, so don't mind the current situation too much as long as there is some prospect of change.

Hmmm, I notice that this programme parroted the official Met Office/BBC line that their forecasts and warnings were adequate ahead of the 8 December 2010 central Scotland snow debacle - I appreciate that it was a bit of a ''nowcasting" situation in the end, with the front stalling, but I'm not sure many would agree that their very vague and offhand treatment of the risk on the previous day's forecasts constituted adequate warning. While I am on my pedantic high horse, I'm sure Kate Humble said something about 2009 being the last White Christmas, when both 2009 and 2010 were white here, and various other parts, including Glasgow where she was filming the programme!

Not necessarily - though after the mild wet and windy remnants of the US snowstorm pass through it would be useful if it would cool down to at least more typical November values with the prospect of some high altitude snow. Or at least crisper anticyclonic high pressure type conditions with light winds and the ground cooling down further. On the positive, the Sphinx patch in Garbh Coire Mor in the Cairngorms is well buried by the mid-October snowfalls and survival looks assured. Out in the west the patch on Aonach Beag is still marginally bigger than it was in early October last year but is potentially vulnerable if mild weather continues. Same probably goes for Ben Nevis patches. Up to 3C on Aonach Mor summit already today and heading towards 2C on Cairngorm summit so already milder than yesterday.

A bit more favourable for snow patches today with summit temperatures on Cairn Gorm and Aonach Mor bumping along at just a few decimal points above 0 C. Milder again later in the week though.

Quite right - I forgot about the Aonachs. I should have written that there is no land above 4000ft outside the Cairmgorms and Lochaber.

Don't think these are snow! - just light falling on the roadside grass verges making them look white in comparison with the road...

Not sure about the average year -it will vary a lot. Iain Cameron (firefly) might be able to give a good estimate, but at the extreme end of the spectrum the photo linked below of the Garbh Coire Mor (the long-lasting Sphinx and Pinnacles patches are located at the base of the cliffs here) from April 1951 is reckoned to show an 20-25m deep drifts. In many years the greatest depth in these sheltered hollows will actually be reached in April or perhaps even May (this year of course April was very warm and caused much melting, a big part of the reason for the relative lean-ness of patches remaining at the moment). Much of the snow accumulation in these places comes from snowfalls where low ground only experiences rain or sleet, and supplemented by cornice collapses and avalanches from above. http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/3566288299/ I believe that Observatory Gully at Ben Nevis gathers even greater depth than Garbh Coire Mor, typically.

Impressively white for the time of year at the summit of Meall a'Bhuiridh in Glen Etive/Glen Coe too:

No - there isn't much (possibly any) permanent habitation above 400-450m or so. The Cairngorms have vast high tundra-like plateaux at 1000-1300m which are essentially uninhabitable. In past centuries, in many parts of the highlands people would take cattle and sheep up to higher pastures in summer and live in basic buildings called shielings, but don't think even many of these were higher than 500-600m ASL, and they would return to lower dwellings in the winter.

The current MWIS outlook forecast states that 'A pulse of very cold air on Thursday and Friday will bring squally heavy snow and hail showers across the Scottish Highlands, these concentrated across western mountains. The showers will also bring a dusting of snow to highest summits in England and north Wales.' http://www.mwis.org.uk/ztjwzvobjcjzafmg/EH.PDF These forecasts chop and change more than most though, so we'll see.

A good summary, except Ben Nevis certainly isn't 1000ft higher than any other UK mountain, mainland or otherwise. There is only 114 foot difference between Ben Nevis (4409ft) and Beinn Macdui (4295ft). The Cairngorms have 5 of the 6 highest mountains in the UK, and by far the largest areas of land over 2000ft, over 3000ft and over 4000ft (only Ben Nevis & the Cairngorms rise over the 4000ft mark).

The first new lying snowfalls in the UK have already occurred - on 28/29 August on the higher Cairngorms, most notably on Beinn Macdui (second highest mountain in Scotland/UK). The date of first snowfall (28 Aug) being exactly the same as in 2010, but whereas 2010 brought a mere dusting, 2011 produced notable new drifts on Beinn Macdui, which I saw myself from 20+ miles away near the Lecht ski centre on 31/8/11. There were still visible remnants for at least 12 days after the initial fall, reckoned to be the most persistent August snowfall since at least 1945. The Cairngorms (in the central highlands, with the closest the British isles has to a continental climate) often see earlier snowfalls than Ben Nevis, which lies very close to the west coast. http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/ is a good resource for mountain webcams and tracking the emergence of winter!

Not quite as simple as that, I'm afraid. Depending on September/October weather, it could still come to pass that all patches melt, as in 2003 and 2006. We could still be a couple of months or more from lasting winter snow, particularly in the west (Nevis Range) where it generally arrives later than in the Cairngorms). Having said that, it has been known for lasting snow to arrive in September. 36 is not actually a particularly impressive number of patches remaining for late August, and many of the 36 are very small. In the Cairngorms, in particular, it is far from a vintage year for surviving snow. As with last year, much snow from the north and east and relatively few big westerly storms is probably a factor. The warm spring and huge melting in April at a time of year when there can often be large snowfalls in the mountains also, although a cooler summer seems to have stemmed the decline. Anyone interested can follow contributions from people much more knowledgeable than me on the following thread: http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,137596

MWIS going for snow above 900m in the highlands on Thursday http://www.mwis.org.uk/mountain/WH.PDF We'll see...at least if the weather refuses to behave like summer it does allow for the opportunity of midsummer snow-ramping!

There have been quite a few appreciable lying (though ephemeral) snowfalls on the highest Scottish hills during May, after a very warm April with wildfires etc - snow even down to 2000ft or so on occasion during mid-May. I think its probably safe to assume that there has been at least a bit of ephemeral wintriness on the highest tops during June so far though don't have any direct evidence of this! There was certainly a reliable report of fresh snow lying on the very tops of Cairn Toul, Ben Macdui, Braeriach in the Cairngorms on 31 May. Overall, the remaining winter snow remnants in the Scottish highlands are very limited for the time of year though - warm April took its toll. Amounts are more typical for early July than early June. Suspect all snow might melt this autumn for the first time since 2006 and only the sixth time since 1900 - hopefully not though (but that's for another thread)! Will hopefully spot some falling/lying snow out and about this weekend!

Some decent snowfalls at high levels in the west highlands today (link to Glencoe webcam below) and 6C with gales and hail on the outskirts of Glasgow at midday today... http://www.winterhig...encoe/index.php The beginning of winter 2011/12 methinks (or maybe just the Scottish summer...)

Some nice fresh snowfall at 3600ft on the Meall a'Bhuiridh webcam (Glencoe). http://www.winterhig...encoe/index.php Down to 6C in East Kilbride in a squally hailstorm half an hour ago but now back up to a balmy 7.5C and sunny. Branches and debris everywhere.

A bit closer to home and these 20C+ days seem to be taking their toll on the southern Highlands. Hardly any remaining patches to be seen in the Arrochar area yesterday (albeit I didn't see any north or east-facing slopes of the biggest hills). There are 3 or 4 small patches on the south face of Beinn Ime. There are some small patches on Ben Donich at 700-800m, but there didn't seem to be anything visible on Ben Lomond from the A82. I'm told that there is still some remaining snow on the N-E aspects of Ben Lomond - certainly I saw that there was a fair amount still there on 3 April.

Yes, the Corserine patches are more on the 750m contour, pretty much spot-on with your positioning (I read off the wrong contour) - I have some photos which show these and the snow at Polmaddy Gairy (and the distant snow in the Merrick area) though the files seem too big to upload here. The south-facing patches are smaller and are at approximately 505867 on the south aspect of the spur which runs south-east from the summit towards the North Gairy Top. I'd be interested to see when these go although I don't imagine they'll last too far into April. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'll be back in the Galloway area before then, but will have a look if I am. I will be in North Wales in a few weeks though so will see if anything remains there then and will likely be in the Cairngorms and other parts of the Highlands over the summer and autumn.

Firefly, i know its not exactly an area well-known for its late snow patch retention, but if you're interested in the more southern patches at this time in the year, there were still a fair smattering of respectable-sized patches on the Galloway hills in south-west Scotland yesterday. No idea though if they have all persisted since the beginning of winter or have been re-established by recent falls. Corserine has what seems to be a wreath broken into a multitude of patches above its east-facing corrie at ~800m asl, clearly visible for many miles, at the spot identified on the OS map as the 'Scar of the Folk'. Also the remnants of a cornice on the NW-facing Polmaddy Gairy and even some patches on SSW-facing aspects. Merrick and Kirriereoch Hill have some patches visible for many miles on their N-NNE facing aspects. Also some on the east-facing side of Cairnsmore of Carsphairn.