knocker

Richard Alley at the AGU 13 today. What will the ice sheets do? Thermal expansion alone will result in about 0.4 m (a foot) per degree Celsius. But that, he said, is a "thousand year problem" because it takes a long time to warm the ocean. It's the ice sheets that are the biggest problem in the near term. He said, the uncertainty is "lopsided on the bad side". In short, the Pine Island and Thwaites Glaciers in Antarctica are flowing quickly but they've got to get through a narrow neck. If that neck gets unblocked then we're in unknown territory. The ice there represents around 3.3 metres or 10 feet of sea level rise. It's "jammed up behind a narrow mouth". He said if it retreats "we get into physics that we don't really know what to do with yet". Ice exhibits tipping behaviour. Nothing happens for a while then all of a sudden.... sea level projections - with some estimates a bit higher than in the IPCC report:

I was what. My point was to post a brief history of ozone measurement and the discovery of the hole as I thought it might be of interest to some people. I was using the two comments as a point. I've really had enough of this crap. I'm out of here. Keep up the good work.

Awesome fossil fuel burning is defying the past and defining the future More fossil fuel projects approved in Australia as geologists say there's no precedent for current speed of carbon dioxide releases http://www.theguardian.com/environment/planet-oz/2013/dec/12/climate-change-awesome-australia-fossil-fuel-great-barrier-reef-abbot-point-coal?CMP=twt_gu

Well you quoted and posted a link to his denier website and the relevance is he is financed by the fossil fuel industry in the US and he just happened to pop over and have a chat with the Polish coal workers. None of the CFACT board have any scientific qualifications including Morano. So there is no scientific significance including Antarctica. The actual significance is to pop over to the Warsaw Climate Change Summit and spout some gobbledegook in support of the coal workers whilst denying CO2 influence on climate change at all cost at the behest of his paymasters. He does have one prestigious accolade he was named the "Climate Change Misinformer of the Year", 2012, by Media Matters of America

Why is it interesting it's just a copy and paste of the NASA press release without a link as usual which I'd already posted. Although he did link to the very good Goddard site. My main reason for posting was partly to show the ignorance of the camp followers but mainly because I thought some might be interested in the chain of events and the evolution of the science. Wrong again. I'm afraid I completely fail to see the relevance of the rest of your post.

I don't want upset the susceptibilities of some worthies on here again by having a rant about Watts but for some reason WUPT seems to be having hysterics over the above. Apparently the hole isn't caused by CFCs at all. Anyway I'll just copy two comments from the illiterati so I can post a brief history that some may find of interest. As it happens I met Dr. Jon shanklin from the BAS, who discovered the ozone hole, on a number of occasions as he used to bring his newbies down to Camborne for observing training and use our Dobson. By that time he was past the age limit and couldn't go down south much to his chagrin. The extract after the pearls of wisdom is courtesy of G. E. Fogg, A History of Antarctic Science, CUP. Jimbo, like a lot of WUWT-ers asks (excerpt) :December 11, 2013 at 4:02 pm Is it just possible that the Ozone hole has always been there? So does Quinn who says (excerpt): December 11, 2013 at 4:21 pm The first satellites that specifically went looking for ozone depletion found the hole, but for all we know the hole has been there for hundreds, thousands, or millions of years or longer. As far as I know, there is no conclusive data indicating that the hole was not there prior to the widespread use of CFC’s. Atmospheric chemistry: ozone This brings us to a finding of Antarctic research which has attracted much public attention in recent years - the depletion of stratospheric ozone. Interest in atmospheric ozone began with G. M. B. Dobson, a British meteorologist. Studies of meteor trails led to the discovery of a region in the stratosphere at a height of about 50 km which owed its high temperature to absorption of ultraviolet radiation by ozone. Dobson invented a spectrophotometric method of measuring its total amount in the air column and in the 1930s set up a chain of ozone measuring stations (Lloyd, 1989). Systematic measurements using the Dobson instruments at Argentine Islands (Faraday) and Halley Bay (Halley), were begun in 1957. Measurements were also made at other IGY Antarctic stations including Little America. The interest was that ozone, being produced photochemically at heights of between 20 and 50 km, mostly at low latitudes or, in the summer only, at high latitudes, could be used as a tracer of atmospheric circulation at high levels. It was found that a major increase in total ozone occurs in the course of breakdown of the Antarctic winter stratospheric vortex. Long-term trends, however, seemed to be small, less than those at lower latitudes (Farman, 1977). Meanwhile concern had been growing about effects of human activities on the ozone layer which might result in penetration of damaging amounts of ultraviolet radiation to ground level. Lovelock (Lovelock et al, 1973), on a cruise on RRS Shackleton, which took him into Antarctic waters, found that chlorofluorocarbons (Freons or CFCs), much used in industry as aerosol propellants and refrigerants, and entirely anthropogenic, were accumulating in the lower atmosphere. Rather incautiously, although there were no indications to the contrary at the time, Lovelock remarked that these substances constituted no conceivable hazard. When it was realized that chlorine can be an agent for the catalytic destruction of ozone, Molina & Rowland (1974) pointed out that CFCs transported into the stratosphere would be photolysed to yield reactive chlorine, which in turn would destroy ozone. This possibility was taken seriously and in the UK in 1979 the Department of the Environment in its second report on the subject, concluded from theoretical studies that in the steady state for release of CFCs at the current level, stratospheric ozone would be reduced by between 11 and 16 per cent. Around this time the use of CFCs as aerosol propellants was banned in the US and reduced in the UK. The need for better understanding of processes in the stratosphere, more extensive and accurate monitoring of stratospheric ozone, and intergovernmental action to reduce global production of CFCs was recognized. Detecting the effects of man-made chemicals on stratospheric ozone is difficult because ozone fluctuates considerably in concentration through natural causes. In addition to a ground-based network of Dobson spectrophotometers supplemented by balloon-borne ozone sondes, the US launched an ozone measuring system on the near-polar orbiting satellite Nimbus 7 in 1979. This was the total ozone mapping spectrometer (TOMS) which uses back scattered solar ultraviolet radiation to produce daily maps of vertically integrated (total) ozone over the entire sunlit portion of the globe. The calibration of this instrument has been a problem, there being uncertainty as to whether a drift in time relative to ground-based measurements of ozone values is an artefact due to calibration drift or real drift due to global or local increases in tropospheric ozone, which would affect the ground based instruments more strongly. However, it seems reasonably certain from a critical consideration of the satellite data over the period 1979-86 the actual decrease in global-mean total ozone was about five per cent (Bowman, 1988), an appreciable but not catastrophic fall. It was therefore sensational when BAS observations by conventional spectrophotometric measurements from the ground at Halley Station showed a deep minimum in spring with the 1984 values down by about a third from the 1957-77 values (Farman eta!., 1985). The US satellite ozone measuring system had evidently missed this because it was programmed to discard low values, which it. was presumed would be due to instrumental error, but re-examination of the data confirmed in the Antarctic spring. That should clear that up and hope it is of some interest.

AGU conference 2013: Bye-bye Arctic, hello extreme climate change http://www.examiner.com/article/agu-conference-2013-bye-bye-arctic-hello-extreme-climate-change

I would have thought my point was obvious. It makes no difference whether you are pro AGW or against there is no place for the drivel that emanates from sites such as this in any scientific, social or economic debate. I still consider most of them to be barking but then that's just my opinion.

It would appear that the recovery of the ozone hole is not quite straightforward. NASA Reveals New Results From Inside the Ozone Hole http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/new-results-from-inside-the-ozone-hole/#.UqmJ5CcQ2VJ

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25269698

Warm Ocean Causing Most Antarctic Ice Shelf Mass Loss http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/earth20130613.html http://www.skepticalscience.com/antarctica-gaining-ice.htm

This is the speech in Warsaw. And not only that God is batting for them. We in America watched as brave Polish workers took to the streets to demand political and economic freedom. Today on my first visit to your wonderful country I am proud to stand with you in a new battle for freedom against those who would use environmental and climate alarmism to steal away our liberties and to give international bureaucrats control over our energy sources, our daily lives, our prosperity and our national sovereignty. Last year the head of the UN climate conference said that the goal of the United Nations was a complete economic transformation of the world. That is what they desire. But that is not good news for those of us who love freedom. And it is not good new for the people of Poland. The Old Testament Book of Proverbs it says that the wicked flee they run away. The wicked run away. Even when no-one is chasing them. But the righteous good people they are bold as a lion. The environmentalists and the bureaucrats they don't want to debate these issues. Because they know they are deceiving the world. There hasn't been any global warming in more than 15 years and this is simply an excuse for more government oppression. But thankfully you and I are not deceived. We stand for freedom. We stand for opportunity. We stand for our families. And we stand for a strong and prosperous future. Together let us be bold as a lion. Thank you for the privilege of speaking here today. And may god bless Poland.

I think if I was linking to something produced by CFACT Stew I would check it with three with other sources and make sure my zip was done up. They are the ones who gave that insane speech in Warsaw. Some of their products are straight out of the looney bin. http://www.cfact.org/

I don't think so because I remember digging up some climate data for Switzerland.

Tut, Tut GW. You will be getting the cane across the back of the legs.

Alpine glacier, unchanged for thousands of years, now melting New ice cores suggest Alps have been strongly warming since 1980s http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-12/osu-agu_1121113.php

I suspect there would be a few others going along for the ride as well.

I remember this case. http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gbFKWdU-XIzyGmBPeSdQllAlCXyA?docId=CNG.ce88761a8c2baeac46f69c7a8623d206.771

Blimey http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25312674

Actually I think this a classic example GW taken in conjunction with this. While Most of U.S. Froze, Parts of Alaska Set Record Highs http://www.climatecentral.org/news/while-most-of-u.s.-froze-parts-of-alaska-set-record-highs-16817