What Should The Authorities Do ?

[Mondy]

Funnily anough I heard a story two weeks ago (in the car with my Dad) on BBC Radio 2 that Highland Council were onto their emergency supplies of salt. The Radio 2 host scoffed at them for "not being prepared enough". Oh little did he know. And I think it was Steve Wright ridiculing the Northern Scots for "not being ready for reality". I would love a transcript of that one now....

Transcript indeed. Should be easy enough to find in the archives of radio 2 website - if you know the date of said broadcast.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Delta X-Ray

[osmposm]

When were the last gales/flooding/snow in Scotland and northern England before this week? A couple of weeks, if that.

Often - you just don't hear about them....

You seem to have completely missed the point, DXR: that is just what Tommy is saying. The more northerly parts of the country get such extremes of weather more often, so naturally your people & your authorities deal with them better. You deal with them better, and there are fewer of you, ergo less people's lives are affected negatively. It is news because large numbers of people are having their lives affected.

I understand that you may not be interested because it's not something that affects you......but then I am bored to tears with Scottish politics, but accept that from time to time on national news there will be coverage of it.

Edited February 6, 2009 by osmposm

[Spurry]

The authorities should forcibly relocate everyone to the NW of England where it never snows, and i'll move down to the Channel Islands where it is beautiful and it also snows every now and then

[stewfox]

Scotland gets heavy snowfall every winter, when it happens it isn't really news. When London gets exceptionally heavy snow, then of course it is going to be big news.

Agree ,when it hit 15c in Scotland in 2003 Im sure it was on every page :o

Im surprise this thread has been so balanced and realistic rather then have a knock at the Authorties

[notananorak]

When I worked for a certain organisation advising of snow/ice/frost, if anything the councils threw far too much salt on the roads. It would only take a mention of a risk of hoar frost and night after night they would grit - the roads becoming white wiith salt ( if they ever dried out ) - and they admitted this to me at that. The Highways Agency actually have/had a rule whereby roads had to be gritted every 24hrs if a frost was predicted.

As for snow, throwing salt on it is really just a PR excercise to make the public think there is something being done. As a result people think that gritting ( rock salt ) is the answer that makes the problem of heavy snowfall go away. No - it helps but really only for relatively light falls. Heavy falls require it to be ploughed continuously until it's stopped falling and then driven on with the right skills and equipment ( winter/studded tyres ). When ever it snowed I would prefer to take the train/walk to work as even though I drove to the conditions some idiot would be up my backside or overtaking so I'm at serious risk anyway. BTW Re the non-use of salt in Canada. Salt does not work below temperatures of around -7C and so it would be no use in that climate anyway.

The problem we have here is that traffic density is very great, snow driving skills are poor and ordinary roads tyres useless ( re last night A38 Devon ) - any sort of gradient stumps them. Hence road blocked and emergency services shut out. I fume when I hear stupid comments from people who should know better Re how countries with harsh winter climates carry on through winter. Well of course they do. They have too because it comes every year!

Edited February 6, 2009 by notananorak

[inkermanhero]

I lived in a maritime province in Canada where it was often no colder than it has been here - but they get a lot more snow. They don't use salt or grit because it is filthy, damaging stuff and the people neither want nor need it. They just drive carefully, use the right tyres and, when it really dumps, stay at home until the ploughe have cleared or levelled it.

[Roger J Smith]

I don't think there's any part of Canada where they don't treat the roads in some form, the use of salt has declined and there are new products that are used which don't have the same environmental impact. Yes, it's true that some provinces require snow tires for the winter season, but they are optional in BC where we have somewhat the same problem as yourselves, many winters without much snow (at the coast, that is) then one or two with quite a bit. We also had a period in December with heavy snowfall this winter. There were many complaints about the authorities letting things go without intervention, hoping that it would all melt (which it didn't for about four weeks). The main roads were treated and plowed, all of the side streets and most of the sidewalks were not.

So it's probably a universal problem in low-risk areas when they do take a big winter hit, London and Vancouver seem to have fared about the same from what I've been reading. The situation in Devon would be similar to a heavy snowstorm on Vancouver Island, another region that gets little snowfall (near sea level) but on occasion can get a large amount.

As to the driving skills part, the one easily learned trick of driving in snow or icy conditions is to use a lower gear, and don't try to accelerate. If you can't back out of a snowy driveway, then try going a foot forward, your car sinks during the snowfall and creates a glare ice spot under your tires, if you move forward a foot (and it's easier to go forward than in reverse on snow) then you can try going backwards from fresh snow that will compact and give you some grip, more than you had before at least. And don't ride your brakes, gear down and pump them, if you ride the brakes you are more likely to skid. We have lots of new drivers around this part of Canada and every time it snows, I see the same dumb things happening, people skidding through a stop sign or red light, sliding into the snowbanks on the side of the road, and making unexpected 360s on the street as they come whizzing out of a heated underground garage like it's the middle of summer. The trick to driving on snow or ice is to gear down and keep your speed changes very gradual. That way your tires won't lock up, even if they aren't very suited to the snow or ice.

[Bluebeard]

I think that in the US many of the snow ploughs are owned by privateers and are called out and paid by the local authorities when needed. Can anyone confirm this? To me this is one way we might make things slightly better. Around here, as in many places, the minor roads and cul-de-sacs are still almost impassable (our road is a skating rink this morning with lumps of frozen snow inbetween sheet ice). Had a local farmer popped a blade onto his tractor and been paid £500 for a day's ploughing, we might not have had everything shut down for two days.

Another thing we could do is, as someone else mentioned, be a little more independent and get things moving ourselves. Down my road I think only two people (me included, of course) have taken the trouble to clear their path and around their cars. Everyone else sits helplessly and waits for salvation from somewhere rather than getting off their butts. Obviously older people aren't going to be able to do this, but a few enterprising teenagers could make themselves some pocket money by offering to clear people's paths rather than spending all day playing in the snow (yes, Number One son, I'm looking at you).

As most others have said, I think we've become accustomed to mild winters in the South and have forgotten how to cope. I remember my mother putting salt on the path during the 70s and 80s when it was icy, but when I did the same yesterday passers-by looked at me as if I was crazy.

I also agree with some of the comments wrt driving. As someone who drives to France every year for the skiing, I've learnt how to cope on snow, but many have no clue. Also, a spade, some sand and a cheap set of snow chains in the boot should be basic equipment whenever travelling in potentially snowy conditions.

[If Wishes made Weather]

I have put a description of what is done here compared to at least colder parts of continental Europe in the 'Emergency Planning' for those interested. Basically, over their its de-icer on major roads only, otherwise loose snow ploughed off and you drive on the white stuff which has non-salted pure grit (small stone chippings) thrown on it so you can get a bit of traction.

T

[Golden Hound]

What Clarkson said about our PM, relates to those in local government regarding the lack of salt. Whoever is responsible for buying stock in any council who's running low in supplies really should be asked if he/she is capable of doing the job. If I screw up in my job (private sector) I'd get a talking to or worse. Having said that volume of traffic is greater now than it was back in '91, so I would imagine that has something to do with why certain roads ground to a halt.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Golden Hound

[Golden Hound]

Duplicate post, sorry.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Golden Hound

[Nick L]

Agree ,when it hit 15c in Scotland in 2003 Im sure it was on every page

Im surprise this thread has been so balanced and realistic rather then have a knock at the Authorties :lol:

15c doesn't cause major disruption even though it is very unusual, 15 inches+ of snow is both unusual and highly disrupted down south. That's why it wasn't mentioned.

It seems that certain people are completely ignorant to the FACT that Okehampton in DEVON got 55cm - that's nearly 2 feet - of snow on Friday morning. If that isn't worth a mention on the news then I don't know what is.

Edited February 7, 2009 by nick2702

[john mac]

This is a standard comment by Joe Public

So what should the authorties do ?.

The fact is the recent snow event is rare , hasnt happen for at least 18 years and is News Worthy.

Some authorties are thinking of buying salt/grit from abroad now. Some suggest they will run out shortly. Many dont have enoughs staff/equipment to deal with it.

So what should we do spend a few billion to get the right equipment ? and let it rot for the next 17 years ?

The guy on the BBC today said if what is happening became a 2 yearly event they would have to look at it but what if it doesnt happen again till 2025 ?

Of course perhaps organisation could be better

BUT... we are not a Moscow or Chicago we dont get regular freezing weather and heavy snow falls and it will always catch us out or is that not a satisfactory answer. ?

Maylaysia has much larger drains then we do should we upgrade for one storm in 20 years

You need to look at the cost and the benifit

panic :lol: