Right, time to stop talking and start committing

[The Penguin]

....when we go it alone?!!!!!

Yeah, well, we can forget about tourism then.

Wind farms, wave farms, tidal farms, hydro schemes; that's all going to look just lovely. Thank God we don't get any sun or we'd have the little bit of scenery left covered in bl00dy solar panels.

[Mondy]

You forgot about the 250 mile stretch of 600 pylons between Beauly and Denny..tsk

Edited for pismelling

Edited February 20, 2007 by Mondy

[PersianPaladin]

Okay, so I've said I was going to be away from this site for some time; but once I saw this thread I couldn't avoid posting.

This is a good idea Stratos, and I commend you and everybody else for their pledges. Indeed, we must do something, even if this involves making small sacrifices.

Here is what I have been doing: -

- Putting vegetable, fruit, etc waste into compost bin

- Using bus to get to work

- Ensuring things do not remain on standby

- Chasing people to turn off lights and the TV when nobody is in that particular room

- Taking showers and not baths

Here is what I am going to try and do: -

- Replace all our lights with energy saving ones (my parents can be forgetful about this!)

- Leave heating off unless I am very cold

- Have luke-warm showers rather than hot ones

- Buy as much local or British produce as possible

- Use a laptop except my normal computer (which consumes far more power!)

We need to all take a small but very significant step in changing our lifestyles a bit, then it will be of considerable help. I for instance tend to spend a lot of time on the computer and this uses un-neccessary power for what I am doing; given that it is a desktop PC. So I've decided to use a laptop instead; and only charge it for as much as I actually need to use it. Better still, there are so-called eco laptops like this, which people may be interested in. If I want to play computer games, then I will only play them for a short-time or if I am more into in-depth games then I can just use my laptop instead (rather than have an overly powerful hardware running at full tilt all the time). If I do ever find a full-time job; then I will endeavour to use public transport to get there. We have a decent metro system in the Tyne&Wear area and I really really wish it was expanded on. This would cut-down traffic a lot if we could extend the underground system in a careful but practical manner. I also plan to eat less meat and buy more vegetable\quorn produce. The cattle\meat industry is responsible for a lot of waste and CO2 output. I advise people against buying soya products, because if you do some research you will find that a more and more of equatorial rainforests have been sacrificed for the sake of soya - and it simply isn't worth it. Mycoprotein such as quorn is better. Milk is good, and that is what I will buy occasionally but I will stick with my local farmer if possible.

If we all did things along these lines, then I am sure they would have a significant effect. Do people not remember after 9\11 when the planes were grounded and this actually had a significant effect on cloud and temperature across the US? Just shows that enough action is taken, then it can have good consequences. And it also shows how much of a problem all these cheap flights are causing. So many people are flying these days; and for what?? I haven't left this country for over 10 years; and guess what? I probably won't for some time. These British Isles are a wonderful place to have your holiday; just come over to the beaches of Northumberland in August; the weather can be wonderful, the beaches are pristine, the wildlife abundant, etc. I have enjoyed holidaying in the Durham Dales, the Cumbrian hills, the Northumbrian beaches and the Cheviots. England is the land that I love, and I have a personal fondness for my birthplace - County Durham and the north of the country (i.e. North Yorkshire northwards). Who needs to travel when you've got this??

Honestly, we are increasingly a society that produces too much crap and too much waste. We are obsessed with profits and profit margins and its all about telephone boxin competition, competition, and more competition. Whatever happened to an honest bob or two profit at the end of the working week eh? Sick world saturated with outsourcing, mass globalised transit of goods to feed an increasingly greater globalisation of the western decadent culture - in Europe, US and now increasingly in Asia. Too many ships, too many needless flights, too many imports, too much overproduction and waste, too much exclusion and exploitation of Africa and the poor and obsession with tariffs, etc. Why can't we just follow the laws of the carrying capacity of our land, rather than try to exceed it by importing more or committing to out-sourcing? I know this sounds like a bit of a rant, but this is important stuff. I know the government have a lot of responsibility but so do we; we must stop flying so much, stop being over-protective of our kids and allow them to walk or cycle more to school rather than ferry them round like caged sheltered hamsters, stop buying from megalopolies like Tesco's and support yer green gocer or local Co-op, get out and about more and enjoy and appreciate mother earth more!!! Our society is very much a society of the car and automobile, and it is becoming an increasingly unhealthy pasttime. Yes, I do understand the fun of travelling fast in automobiles and racers and I enjoy that too - but honestly; you CANNOT do what jeremy clarkson and co. does on your local road or motorway. If you want to enjoy this stuff then there should be occasional, and I mean OCCASIONAL usage of cars around a racing track for entertainment purposes at a weekend or go-karting, etc. That's what it is for.

We should all be more appreciative of what we already have; because we are very fortunate to be born in such a fertile and rainy land. Unfortunately, our summers are getting hotter and drier and our winters more bland, storm-driven and milder than should be normal. We used to see snow considerably more often in the past; but our climate is becoming more bland and more dry by the year; and this is a very bad sign. It is going to take a large shift in our lifestyles to correct this for our children. If I do have children then I don't want them to live in an oppressive dry, overly hot or snowless world. I also don't want them to suffer from other impacts of GW which will inevitably be down to inaction of us and more notably, our elders and the elders before them. As long as we sit down and do nowt, things are going to get worse and worse. Don't rely on the govenment to make policies because the government should really serve us. We should be starting at the microscale and working up towards the macroscale - a good website for this is BBC Action Network. It allows you to start local projects and develop a growing forum for action which should hopefully become part of one big consensus if we can get people sticking to it.

There is, however, a global aspect to this which really requires pressure from us, the British public in ensuring that our government listens. Our world is run, sadly, by rich oligarchs and international bankers who have a powerful presence and lobbying influence in world governments; they influence the military and the activity of even NGO's. The globalisation of western-style decadence and over-consumption has spread to Asia in the past few decades and is growing ever-rampant. The routes of this are highly complex, but it is tied to over-population and the legacy of US involvement in the Asia-Pacific area prior to the 2nd world war and an Japan-US economic partnership which would soon become part of the growth of the Asian 'tiger' economies. Because we in the west are responsible for the globalisation of our decadence; then we must live by example and hopefully everywhere else will follow suit.

We can all make a difference; the deniers of AGW are growing increasingly marginal, and so the time for action is more urgent than ever. I wish you all well with your efforts and hope we can all stick to them; because as humans we have a tendency for being creatures of habit or falling back into an old habit that we got attached to. It will take a lot of will and a good altruistic mind-set to get this into momentum, and a lot of fighting back from our lower desires and laziness. But it is certainly doable.

~ PP

Edited February 20, 2007 by PersianPaladin

[Gray-Wolf]

Interestingly, the Australian government has announced today that it's going to ban incandescent bulbs by 2012, which makes them the first government to do so. Perhaps it's a sign of a change of mind on their part about global warming.

Nothing to do with him being 'up for re-election' soon and finding his flat refusal over kyoto not going down too well with both the folk who care about climate change and those who care about their (now) poor world image it engendered as being one of the few 'nay sayers' to join with Mr Bush (jnr).Honest!

EDIT; After reading that P.P. I'll be even sadder when you stop posting!

Edited February 20, 2007 by Gray-Wolf

[kold weather]

Thatys a very good post PP and your right about the society today.

However my main problem is that very first line in the longer paragraph, in all honesty small steps are not going to be a good deal of use in the long term. Sure it may buy us a couple of years more but the industrial revolutions continue to beat on at a stunning pace in places like India which will easily offset any small changes we make to our lives.

Not to say we shouldn't at least try but its going to be doomed to fail in the long run, I honestly think humanity as a whole is just to set in its ways to shift its entire way of surviving, which in the end is what will be needed to stop global warming. i know that the media is pumping us full of GW scare-stories but our carbon foot print on a gloally scale is so small it won't make that much difference if the whole country stopped producing and using Co2 completely, but we know that won't happen and soeven if we do meet our targets of reducing greenhouse gases, its way way way too small to stop global warming now.

People rarely act to they are truely hiot hard by it, a smal lexample is Katrina. So many people thought it wouldn't affect them in New Orleans because its not happened in a long time, almost denial. it was only after it had hit that they truely understood its power. Global warming will be the same but we may not feel the real Human effects till most of us here are dead.

Then there is always the risk of Methene escaping from under the ice caps as well...

Edited February 20, 2007 by kold weather

[Gray-Wolf]

Thatys a very good post PP and your right about the society today.

However my main problem is that very first line in the longer paragraph, in all honesty small steps are not going to be a good deal of use in the long term. Sure it may buy us a couple of years more but the industrial revolutions continue to beat on at a stunning pace in places like India which will easily offset any small changes we make to our lives.

Not to say we shouldn't at least try but its going to be doomed to fail in the long run, I honestly think humanity as a whole is just to set in its ways to shift its entire way of surviving, which in the end is what will be needed to stop global warming. i know that the media is pumping us full of GW scare-stories but our carbon foot print on a gloally scale is so small it won't make that much difference if the whole country stopped producing and using Co2 completely, but we know that won't happen and soeven if we do meet our targets of reducing greenhouse gases, its way way way too small to stop global warming now.

People rarely act to they are truely hiot hard by it, a smal lexample is Katrina. So many people thought it wouldn't affect them in New Orleans because its not happened in a long time, almost denial. it was only after it had hit that they truely understood its power. Global warming will be the same but we may not feel the real effects till most of us here are dead.

Then there is always the risk of Methene escaping from under the ice caps as well...

And the little Dutch boys finger was Soooo big to make the BIG difference he did................

Every little counts! I said before, we aint gonna stop 'our' global warming but we can slow/stop 'our grand kids' global warming but only if we are willing to both try and cut emmissions and to adapt to the changes ahead.

The developing world followed us into development so why not into less polluting ways?

[PersianPaladin]

Thatys a very good post PP and your right about the society today.

However my main problem is that very first line in the longer paragraph, in all honesty small steps are not going to be a good deal of use in the long term. Sure it may buy us a couple of years more but the industrial revolutions continue to beat on at a stunning pace in places like India which will easily offset any small changes we make to our lives.

Not to say we shouldn't at least try but its going to be doomed to fail in the long run, I honestly think humanity as a whole is just to set in its ways to shift its entire way of surviving, which in the end is what will be needed to stop global warming. i know that the media is pumping us full of GW scare-stories but our carbon foot print on a gloally scale is so small it won't make that much difference if the whole country stopped producing and using Co2 completely, but we know that won't happen and soeven if we do meet our targets of reducing greenhouse gases, its way way way too small to stop global warming now.

Which is why I also mentioned the terms out-sourcing as well as mentioned the goods that we buy as significant. A good deal of companies in South America and Asia have very significant links with those in the UK, Europe, and US. What we consume or buy from shops in terms of electronic goods, foods, etc will have a very significant impact upon those down the line in Asia producing them. We have created economies of scale and dependence that are not healthy at all. We do have the power to change our world if enough of us here acted. Why? Well, the world financial center is London and this is the heart of currency speculation and the clock in which all economies race by and compete with. Through enough of us acting, we can use our influence to halt this system of global economic dependence and encourage countries to adopt a more healthy culture of living by the carrying capacity of the land, trading at a healthy level, etc.

Global is local.

[kold weather]

GW---Okay so we slow down the rate of global wamring IF enough of the planet decide to act but then what aobut our grand childrens children?

All we do is shift the problem from one generation without ever actually solving the problem at all, in that regards its just like ASBO's, you never truely sort out the problem but shift it somewhere else.

The problem with your idea PP is I don't believe enough people will ever be bothered enough to change thier lifestyles or act in a big eonugh way. Sure they may make tiny changes here and there (some may go a little further like a few on here) but its never going to be eonugh to make a large difference in global warming.

Hence why i said that its all token gestures, in the end it'll be countries like India and China that decide the fate of GW, not small (relativly) countries like us (in terms of population) whose carbon foot print makes little difference.

If the kyoto agreement is the best we can do then we may as well give up right now.

By the way, by 2020 what percent of carbon emessions will come from India and China??

[PersianPaladin]

GW---Okay so we slow down the rate of global wamring IF enough of the planet decide to act but then what aobut our grand childrens children?

All we do is shift the problem from one generation without ever actually solving the problem at all, in that regards its just like ASBO's, you never truely sort out the problem but shift it somewhere else.

The problem with your idea PP is I don't believe enough people will ever be bothered enough to change thier lifestyles or act in a big eonugh way. Sure they may make tiny changes here and there (some may go a little further like a few on here) but its never going to be eonugh to make a large difference in global warming.

Well, how are people influenced these days? It is through the media. The media is very much a powerful suggestive form which seems to perpetuate the attitude in people these days. If newspapers like The Sun, for example, started taking issues like these onboard and sold it to their readers in a way which could be deemed non-condescending but sufficiently basic for their less-educated minds to digest it; then it could be a good start to getting more of our populous to act. We also vote in our governments, sadly we do not have proportional representation and we need that otherwise we all have this stupid system where despite most people not voting for a government; it is still in power anyway. Once the correct government is voted in, microscale campaigning must soon reach the macroscale in which we voted in; and the media MUST fall into line. We must be able to 'sell' our agenda, just as well as companies sell their McDonalds or CocaCola agendas so fruitfully and copiously. The 'carrot and stick' methodology can then be used as desired but in a sensible fashion with referendums and feedback from the movement; things like air travel must be highly taxed but the 'tax' should go into a kitty which is EFFICIENTLY spent on improving public transport, environmental efficiency of homes, building 'green' homes in brownfield sites, etc. Too many un-neccessary 'business' flights are carried out for stupid conferences when they could just be done at home with the improvement of streaming internet media and internet technology.

Sadly, the world is enmeshed in its own lustful desire for more, more, more. But are we happier for it? Really, let us think about that for a second. Are we actually happy for it?

Edited February 20, 2007 by PersianPaladin

[kold weather]

The only real way people are influenced is by their pockets and how much money they have IMO. Sure the media can help to fuel any ideas that people have but in the end unless you severely tax things that produce Co2 to the point where its no longer cheaper to run it on that fuel sorce then no matter how much the media barks on about global warming all they do wil lbe to inform people, but that on its own is not going to change any peoples life-style you need something else in the mix as you say.

If it was a battle between the media and money, we all know what will win.

I agree about the taxes, all the taxes raised from those who use too much Co2 should be spent on such things you mention.

I think though we are agreeing on nearly eveerything, but the only differenc eis I think what we do in the long run makes little difference while you appear to think we can still reduce the risk of GW.

Edited February 20, 2007 by kold weather

[SNOW-MAN2006]

turn off all the moterway lights,why do we need these street lights when you got lights on your car,

then turn off every other sreet light, it would save thousands of tons of CO2,

That isnt the solution Barry... it is alright to turn off the street lights but why not your central heating/drive less? We dont want a major impact on our lives we want to lower CO2 levels... Street lights help prevent crime and provide saftey (walking down street + no light = muggings increase... )

SM06

[PersianPaladin]

The only real way people are influenced is by their pockets and how much money they have IMO. Sure the media can help to fuel any ideas that people have but in the end unless you severely tax things that produce Co2 to the point where its no longer cheaper to run it on that fuel sorce then no matter how much the media barks on about global warming all they do wil lbe to inform people, but that on its own is not going to change any peoples life-style you need something else in the mix as you say.

If it was a battle between the media and money, we all know what will win.

I agree about the taxes, all the taxes raised from those who use too much Co2 should be spent on such things you mention.

I think though we are agreeing on nearly eveerything, but the only differenc eis I think what we do in the long run makes little difference while you appear to think we can still reduce the risk of GW.

You have a very good point about peoples' affluence influencing what they are liable to consume and what lifestyle they commit; but with the vast majority of us - it is a dialectic process with the media and the populous influencing each other in terms of the cultural\socio-economic status-quo.

The world does not run itself and is no longer a world which consists of localities which looked after themselves and their own personal territory. We are not powerless; and in this sort of interdependent world; action at the local level will soon have a global impact. Sadly, we need numbers and influence, but we have to start somewhere. If the whole of the UK started committing to environmental lifestyles then this would send signals to the rest of Europe and then the US; our influence as a large controller of the world banking system and currency markets would eventually have an impact on China and Russia. With the US and Europe - we can force China and Asia to fall into line. After all; didn't all world religions start off in small corners of the world that soon spread? (I know they became corrupted and dogmatised but the essential principles survived)

It is asking a LOT, but what else can we do? Who else has the influence? I cannot live with doing nothing.

Edited February 20, 2007 by PersianPaladin

[Mark Bayley]

That isnt the solution Barry... it is alright to turn off the street lights but why not your central heating/drive less? We dont want a major impact on our lives we want to lower CO2 levels... Street lights help prevent crime and provide saftey (walking down street + no light = muggings increase... )

SM06

I agree. I aint getting muged. If we want to lower co2 then all the countrys in the world have do somthing not just the UK. And that icludes those Americans with there gas guzling cars and so on.

Edited February 20, 2007 by mark bayley

[Gallow_glass]

I agree. I aint getting muged. If we want to lower co2 then all the countrys in the world have do somthing not just the UK. And that icludes those Americans with there gas guzling cars and so on.

hes right in most areas except from the slowing it down but my lips are sealed

[Pennine Ten Foot Drifts]

Great thread, and many great posts. Really thought provoking, and here are a few of mine.

I notice many of you use a public transport regularly, and a surprising number of you don't even have a car. I must confess that I drive to work every day, using the terminally jammed M62, the reason being that, whilst it is just about possible to use public transport, it would take me 2 hours and twenty minutes to get to work using this, whereas driving, even when the M62 is at it's worst, takes at most an hour. Nevertheless I have been looking for similarly paid work more locally for a number of years now, but without success. I suppose I could up sticks and move, but notwithstanding the upheaval for the whole family, I love where I live, so feel very reluctant to make such a huge sacrifice.

With regards to running older more polluting cars, I read somewhere that the carbon footprint of producing new cars will never be offset by their increased efficiency over old engines, so the best approach is actually similar to Cuba's i.e. new cars should only ever be bought as an absolute last resort - I would imagine the carbon footprint of disposing of old cars is equally horrendous, so keep using them until they fall apart, not until the registration plate changes year !!!!

There are other things that confuse me - for instance, over the last few years I have steadily increased the amount of veg I grow, to the point where we have enough to be able to freeze some, but then I thought, is running a freezer justifiable to be able to do this ????

And some things depress me, like people complaining when they are charged for using carrier bags or for excessive bin liner refuse collections. We are a six person family and we manage, through recycling, (and as there is no council collection I have developed a routine of going via the council recycling centre on my way to work when needed), composting and careful consumption, to keep our actual rubbish collection to at most one bin liner a week.

So I feel like we do our bit, but I know we could do more, but feel a little angry and a little discouraged knowing that there are still so many people who are doing absolutely nothing, and often feel that they should be forced, by such things as charging for extra bin liners and carrier bags and so on.

[Mark Bayley]

Great thread, and many great posts. Really thought provoking, and here are a few of mine.

I notice many of you use a public transport regularly, and a surprising number of you don't even have a car. I must confess that I drive to work every day, using the terminally jammed M62, the reason being that, whilst it is just about possible to use public transport, it would take me 2 hours and twenty minutes to get to work using this, whereas driving, even when the M62 is at it's worst, takes at most an hour. Nevertheless I have been looking for similarly paid work more locally for a number of years now, but without success. I suppose I could up sticks and move, but notwithstanding the upheaval for the whole family, I love where I live, so feel very reluctant to make such a huge sacrifice.

With regards to running older more polluting cars, I read somewhere that the carbon footprint of producing new cars will never be offset by their increased efficiency over old engines, so the best approach is actually similar to Cuba's i.e. new cars should only ever be bought as an absolute last resort - I would imagine the carbon footprint of disposing of old cars is equally horrendous, so keep using them until they fall apart, not until the registration plate changes year !!!!

There are other things that confuse me - for instance, over the last few years I have steadily increased the amount of veg I grow, to the point where we have enough to be able to freeze some, but then I thought, is running a freezer justifiable to be able to do this ????

And some things depress me, like people complaining when they are charged for using carrier bags or for excessive bin liner refuse collections. We are a six person family and we manage, through recycling, (and as there is no council collection I have developed a routine of going via the council recycling centre on my way to work when needed), composting and careful consumption, to keep our actual rubbish collection to at most one bin liner a week.

So I feel like we do our bit, but I know we could do more, but feel a little angry and a little discouraged knowing that there are still so many people who are doing absolutely nothing, and often feel that they should be forced, by such things as charging for extra bin liners and carrier bags and so on.

could not agree more people like america china need to act as they are doing nothing. England is trying however but we could do more. The people i blame most is america becouse they can aford to do somthing about it but they don't. However we are all to blame and as you said internatnaly we all need to do somthing.

P.S the most anoying thing africa who has drought and all low liying irlands who have flooding becouse of rising sea. Hardly polute and are the ones who are sufering

Edited February 20, 2007 by mark bayley

[Cumulonimbus Tower]

I work for a not-for-profit company who develop and implement environmental projects. I run an Installer Group carrying out installations of insulation and energy efficient heating systems and i also manage a national boiler scheme allowing people to access reduced prices for A rated boilers, solar hot water equipment, heating controls etc.

Please have a look and see if we can help! - http://www.energy-smart.org.uk

or http://www.energy-smart.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Ned

Edited February 20, 2007 by ned

[mcweather]

So many great points being made here about sustainablity, and recycling.

The point I would like to add is that when it comes to transport. Most of the pious ideas being forward by Government and the green lobby seem to assume that we all live in cities with great public transport networks. Well I have news we don,t. My work as a thatcher in rural dorset means I have to use my own tranport. You try getting 600 bundles of water reed on the bus that runs once a week through my village. They don't like it. By the way they don't yet make paniers big enough for me to carry them on my mountain bike either! The internal combustion cannot be uninvented so lets put as much money as possible into finding one that runs on some thing renewable.

This is not a pro car rant just message to city based greens to think wider than their immediate needs.

[kaz]

well i already recycle if we didnt we get a fine and as they now only empty are black bin every 2 weeks we realy dont have a choice.. Unable to recycle everthing because were not alowed to (not my fault)

I have a key meter so watch me turn out the lights ect electric bill is high enough thank you..

I have a 4x4 CRV 2L run on petrol.. I do live in the country... Have you seen the state of the roads round here? I refuse to be made to feel guilty..

I cant take public transport because there isnt any (not where i live)

We pay the highest water rates in the country simply because we live by the sea.. Cant drink the water because it taste like a swimming pool..

i dont have central heating so cant turn down what i havent got..

So all in all it depends on where you live..

lol kaz x

[PersianPaladin]

So many great points being made here about sustainablity, and recycling.

The point I would like to add is that when it comes to transport. Most of the pious ideas being forward by Government and the green lobby seem to assume that we all live in cities with great public transport networks. Well I have news we don,t. My work as a thatcher in rural dorset means I have to use my own tranport. You try getting 600 bundles of water reed on the bus that runs once a week through my village. They don't like it. By the way they don't yet make paniers big enough for me to carry them on my mountain bike either! The internal combustion cannot be uninvented so lets put as much money as possible into finding one that runs on some thing renewable.

This is not a pro car rant just message to city based greens to think wider than their immediate needs.

Well there are alternative fuels in the making; try this website: -

http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/hhos

There are also suggestions of powering cars on HHO Gas. I think I started a thread on this in the 'Space, Science and Nature' forum some time back.

Edited February 20, 2007 by PersianPaladin

[Admiral_Bobski]

The internal combustion cannot be uninvented so lets put as much money as possible into finding one that runs on some thing renewable.

The simple solution is to get a diesel engine and run it on vegetable oil - to run on pure vegetable oil you'll need to get your engine converted (there's some kind of attachment required that makes the vegetable oil less viscous - I think it just preheats the oil) which can be quite expensive to do, but you can apparently run on a diesel/vegetable oil mix. Here's a website that gives more detail:

http://www.ravenfamily.org/andyg/vegoil.htm

C-Bob

PS - Just to cover myself, I don't suggest anyone tries this without doing some research first! I have heard about it but don't know much enough about cars, so don't take it a read that it is problem-free! So if you try it and naff up your car then don't blame me!!

PPS - I don't know anything about this website - I just did a Google search for "running a diesel engine on vegetable oil" and it was the first hit...

[PersianPaladin]

Well, I've just had my first luke warm shower. Made sure that it was at a just right temperature. Takes a bit of getting used to though but interestingly I didn't feel as cold coming out of the shower; perhaps because of the effect of evap cooling isn't as great? Lol.

[HighPressure]

I have not read these post since I wrote that I will be doing nothing on this issue, which I state is not because I believe nothing needs to be done here. Its actually completely the opposite it does but it needs to start at the top at government level and international level with real action that is going to bite. I have not seen one single UK government minister go on record to say he is prepared to do any of the things that people are saying on here. I want every person in the UK to tell our government that they will do nothing because in a perverse way I believe it is actually one of the most effective weapon on getting any real action. You cannot justify turning your heating down 1oC when our government ministers are sticking 2 fingers up at us by driving Jags / Range Rovers and taking half a dozen long haul holidays a year.

Lets see policies Like:

One car off the road one car back on it.

Lets ban all standard lighbulbs and subsidise energy saving ones

Put carbon taxes on goods coming from high polluting countries.

And lets see our government take the train and go to Cornwall for their holidays.

[PersianPaladin]

I have not read these post since I wrote that I will be doing nothing on this issue, which I state is not because I believe nothing needs to be done here. Its actually completely the opposite it does but it needs to start at the top at government level and international level with real action that is going to bite. I have not seen one single UK government minister go on record to say he is prepared to do any of the things that people are saying on here. I want every person in the UK to tell our government that they will do nothing because in a perverse way I believe it is actually one of the most effective weapon on getting any real action. You cannot justify turning your heating down 1oC when our government ministers are sticking 2 fingers up at us by driving Jags / Range Rovers and taking half a dozen long haul holidays a year.

Lets see policies Like:

One car off the road one car back on it.

Lets ban all standard lighbulbs and subsidise energy saving ones

Put carbon taxes on goods coming from high polluting countries.

And lets see our government take the train and go to Cornwall for their holidays.

But we voted in our government and we have the power to take our government to task if enough of us act. We outnumber them and the country depends on us workers for it being able to stand on its feet; we need to 'sell' the environmental agenda to everyday people, tabloid readers, policemen, company managers, workmen, middle-class service industry workers, etc. Every little good action we do is good for both our conscience and the nations, and it is this altruistic attitude that is missing from our society these days. We are too individualistic and narcissistic and it has to stop.

(I like your policies tho).

Edited February 21, 2007 by PersianPaladin

[Hemlock]

Well, having read most of this thread the thing that really strikes me is how the onus has been put on the consumer not the manufacturer or supplier to cut energy usage, pollution etc, turning a light off, turning your heating down a degree or two, not very effective is it? Sure, IF the entire country did it (Unlikely) then yes, it would make a slight difference. Personally what i'd like to see is manufacturers forced to find ways of producing appliances that use far less energy, imagine the difference if appliances world wide used 30-40% less energy,apply the same to transport and industry and then we are really starting to make a difference, turning a light off just smacks of a token effort in tackling a far bigger problem.