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Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    If we can keep this topic free of religious dogma then it would be great.

    Basically I want to know if anybody here has tried meditations, e.g. chakra balancing, reiki, yogic breathing, etc. Did it have positive effects for you? Did you feel anything notable after doing it a few times? What are you views on the subject?

    I believe that our bodies have a subtle energy system which are called 'chakras' in the indian cultures, 'lataifs' in the islamic sufi tradition, and 'chi centres' in the taoist tradition. I think that a lot of these centres are related to our physical and psychological wellbeing and if a centre (or centres) is blocked then it constricts the flow in that part of the body affected by the centre and this can have knock-on effects for the rest of the body and the person. I do think that bad lifestyle, diet, emotional trauma can cause blockages in our energy centres and therefore we not only need to meditate on unblocking these centres but also to realise if there is any physical or circumstantial cause of an illness we are suffering...then we must get to the root of that first, i.e. cut down on eating fatty foods, exercise more, etc - otherwise chakra balancing would be undone every time you sit and eat, for example. I do think that for things like depression, emotional issues, muscle pain, fatigue, headaches, backpain, etc then it can be potentially very beneficial.

    What are your experiences?

    (Btw, I have anger-management issues and occasional depression and meditation helps me a LOT to calm myself down and make me feel better psychologically).

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......

    I had, for a long time, an interest in the supposed 'energies' that flow through the body. With knowing a few Raiki Masters I had also the 'lowdown 'on how they believe they can effect 'change' in a diseased body. It was only with my recent introduction to 'Scenar' that I had my first opportunity to bring any 'scientific meaning 'to the Eastern wisdom though.

    The way we use Scenar is a kind of fusion of eastern and western medicines and so you need gain a basic understanding of acupuncture and it's 'zones/points' to effectively target areas for treatment. Why? because our central nervous system runs through our bodies more widely than our veins/arteries providing the route-ways by which our body communicates with itself. Throughout the body are various 'junctions' where masses of 'nerves' join together on their journey to, and from the brain. These are the common acupuncture points.

    For millenia we have used herbs and tinctures (chemicals) to manipulate the body (along these nerves) and ,with the advent of science, we have sought to understand and better this 'chemical manipulation' and so pharmacology was born.

    We have now become aware of the minute electrical pulses (signals) that accompany the chemical messages flowing around our bodies. We can measure, decode and replicate (with the aid of microprocessors) even the tiniest currents (down to a cellular level). Some of the more frequent/common signals help to both measure our bodies functioning (and correct it where necessary) and also switch ion and off various 'autonomic' responses in the body (fight or flight etc.)

    Is this 'Energy' the same 'energy' that the Eastern practices speak of ? Are the 'chakras' the 'junction boxes' I have outlined?

    I know from experience (and measurement of electrical activity by our scenar devices) that when part of a body is not working correctly (at ease) then there is a lot of electrical activity in that region as both the messages from our 'sensors' are active and also the measures the body is seeking to deploy to remedy the 'Dis-ease' within our body. Basic electrical knowledge will tell you that high electromagnetic activity will interfere with other electromagnetic activity (think of a thin wire carrying a slight current surrounded by a coil of wire carrying a large current) and so signals can become 'blocked' (or chakras if you like) and the removal of that 'blockage leads to the bodies 'energies' (electrical messages governing the running and repair of the body) flowing again enabling the body to regain a position of 'ease/balance'.

    If we take the Freudian model the mind is made up of 3 parts Id, Ego and Superego. If we view Id as the autonomic nervous system and the superego as the 'concious mind' (where most of us spend all of our time) then maybe the Ego is the mediator ? Meditation 'calms the cage of chattering monkeys' (the conscious mind) and allows us, via the ego, to interface with our autonomic nervous system effecting changes in our body normally under unconscious control (breathing,heart rate,body temperature etc.) as shown by many Fakirs in the Indian subcontinent.

    Because the electronics of our body are 'new knowledge' many people dismiss them as 'new age codswallop' merely because it is not yet as common a knowledge as 'medicine' is (shame on those people!)but this does not lessen it's impact on it's power over the body.

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    Posted
  • Location: Ash, Surrey/Hampshire Border Farnborough 4 miles
  • Weather Preferences: All
  • Location: Ash, Surrey/Hampshire Border Farnborough 4 miles
    If we can keep this topic free of religious dogma then it would be great.

    Basically I want to know if anybody here has tried meditations, e.g. chakra balancing, reiki, yogic breathing, etc. Did it have positive effects for you? Did you feel anything notable after doing it a few times? What are you views on the subject?

    I believe that our bodies have a subtle energy system which are called 'chakras' in the indian cultures, 'lataifs' in the islamic sufi tradition, and 'chi centres' in the taoist tradition. I think that a lot of these centres are related to our physical and psychological wellbeing and if a centre (or centres) is blocked then it constricts the flow in that part of the body affected by the centre and this can have knock-on effects for the rest of the body and the person. I do think that bad lifestyle, diet, emotional trauma can cause blockages in our energy centres and therefore we not only need to meditate on unblocking these centres but also to realise if there is any physical or circumstantial cause of an illness we are suffering...then we must get to the root of that first, i.e. cut down on eating fatty foods, exercise more, etc - otherwise chakra balancing would be undone every time you sit and eat, for example. I do think that for things like depression, emotional issues, muscle pain, fatigue, headaches, backpain, etc then it can be potentially very beneficial.

    What are your experiences?

    (Btw, I have anger-management issues and occasional depression and meditation helps me a LOT to calm myself down and make me feel better psychologically).

    Hi PP.

    I belonged to a meditation school for nearly twenty years. It took me quite a while to learn to still the body first and then the mind. With practice - twice daily recommended, and preferably at sunrise and sunset but not always practicable - I found within ten to fifteen minutes of sitting all was very quiet and very still. Mind is calmed and becomes a total void for a while. Mind becomes no mind. On stepping back into the mind, one is left with great sense of peace and clarity. Quite often, little problems seemingly insolvable before, now have an answer. It was absolutely fascinating.

    I really discovered a great deal about how man's mind works, especially mine. If not watched, mind is its own worst enemy as I have found to my cost since leaving the meditation school some years ago. Life has now got in the way again with all sorts of nonsense going on. I feel the need to return to meditation and expect to soon. I can highly recommend it. The discipline is the hardest thing to overcome but once mastered it is a valuable weapon to have in your arsenal.

    As far as 'religious dogma' is concerned, I recommend reading Richard Dawkin's 'The God Delusion.' It puts it into very good perspective.

    Let me know if you want any more information. I can recommend some books for you if you like.

    Regards

    Andy

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......

    The blight of modern living is stress. Stress leads to us 'deploying' our 'fight or flight' measures which limit many areas of the bodies functions.

    In it's evolution as a response 'fight or flight' was never meant to be a 'long term' deployment, meant only for short term deployment whist the stress situation existed. In todays world we 'deploy' the reaction to many stimulus that are not truely 'life threatening' but are merely mental constructs to deal and respond to our day to day living. As such the signal to deploy becomes so frequent, and it's deployment so long lived, that many bodies 'habitualise' to that setting/state of being and it becomes our 'normal baseline' (habitualisation is the way we 'filter out' constant stimuli that we deem 'unnecessary info'. Think of the ticking of a clock, you become so used to it you 'habitualise to the ticking and no longer consciously hear it. As soon as the clock stops you register the change in your environment and 'hear' that it has stopped so it is with your body)

    If you think of a body living day to day that is unable to digest food properly due to the shut down of the blood vessels taking the nutrients into the bloodstream, a mind working overtime to isolate the perceived 'threat, increased adrenal activity leading to inability to 'relax' because you are so pumped up, lack of blood to the skin affecting body temp/humidity control, sleeplessness and fatigue leading to reactive depression .

    This, I imagine, is a picture of a person whose 'fight or flight' response is 'broken' and permanently switched on (habitualise to the 'deployed' setting). In time it WILL lead to a collapse of the bodies systems that are running out of kilter with the norm and putting pressures on some bodily systems whilst reducing the affects of other necessary bodily functions.

    For us the Scenar quite easily 'switches off' any habitualise settings by allowing the body to 'explore' its inputs/signals and 'reset' any that are deployed when they oughtn't .

    Meditation, by quietening the 'cage of chattering monkeys' may also afford the body the opportunity to explore it's onboard systems whist it is not being permanently dragged away from the task by conscious thought.

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    Posted
  • Location: Merseyside
  • Location: Merseyside

    When I was pregnant with my Eldest my employer (who was a great believer in 'alternative' thereapies) was training to become a reiki healer.

    One evening, towards the end of my pregnancy, when I was enormous and very tired, she placed her hands over my stomach and held them there for about a minute. I felt a very warm sensation and for the whole drive home (which took 30 minutes) when Eldest usually used my bladder as a trampoline, he was very still and relaxed.

    I have no experience of any of the other treatments mentioned.

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    Posted
  • Location: South of Glasgow 55.778, -4.086, 86m
  • Location: South of Glasgow 55.778, -4.086, 86m

    I don't intend to be dismissive, only it seems that as meditation is about emptying the mind and relaxing it is just the same as sleep. So what's so special?

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    Posted
  • Location: Merseyside
  • Location: Merseyside
    I don't intend to be dismissive, only it seems that as meditation is about emptying the mind and relaxing it is just the same as sleep. So what's so special?

    Possibly that one is awake?

    (And you've obviously never heard me relate one of my dreams if you think my mind is empty when I'm asleep!)

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    Posted
  • Location: South of Glasgow 55.778, -4.086, 86m
  • Location: South of Glasgow 55.778, -4.086, 86m
    Possibly that one is awake?

    Yes, but what's the difference between being awake with an empty mind and asleep with an empty mind?

    (My mind is especially empty when I sleep; no dreams here)

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
    I don't intend to be dismissive, only it seems that as meditation is about emptying the mind and relaxing it is just the same as sleep. So what's so special?

    At some point in your life Pengers you must take the time to get acquainted with yourself!!!

    Sleep is a physiological function of all of us. It revolves around a roughly 90mins cycle (both day and night) and, with the deployment of the right chemicals, brings about the physiological state we know as sleep. It is not as 'restful' a thing as you seem to imagine!

    In deep sleep (with the body 'paralyzed' by chemical secretions) much of the muscle/bone repair work (which cannot be done whilst awake) takes place.

    In the 'shallowest' part of the sleep cycle we enjoy Rapid Eye Movement sleep (R.E.M.) which is our dream cycle. During dreaming, were you not paralyzed, you would act out the 'active content' of your dream. The eyes are the only part of the body not 'subdued' and so they follow the 'action' in the dream hence the 'rapid eye movements' (many a battleship was sold to unwary sailors on payday by 'messing with them' during this highly suggestible period of sleep....according to U.S. naval records!).

    The distinctive patterns of brain waves we produce through sleep show us just how 'busy' we are whilst sleeping.....just not what the Dr ordered for meditation which is effectively slowing and stopping ALL conscious thought.

    Anyone attempting to meditate will quickly realise how little control we have over the thoughts that just 'pop' into our heads un beckoned and uncalled for. The knack of meditation,if I have it right, is to seize back control of the conscious train of though, slow it and eventually ,stop it leaving us in a wholly un-natural state (unlike natural sleep).

    Most people will never have experienced a 'stilled mind' in the whole of there living and so provides a new and novel experience when experienced for the first time. The brain wave patterns of a person in deep meditation can be likened to some patterns in sleep but , of course, we are awake whilst meditating and so 'clean' of the chemicals we dose ourselves with during sleep.

    For any non-meditates out there you'd maybe like to try this in a spare 15mins. Sit in a comfy but upright position in a darkened room without too much outside noise penetrating and visualize (imagine in your head) an apple. Do no more than look at that apple, see it's skin and its colour, turn it and see its shape.

    Try it and then tell me how many other thoughts butted in and dragged you away from the task. Now, come on! whose in control of your mind you or it??? If you still your mind to a point where time ceases and stillness rules tell us about it. If you just end up frustrated by your 'cage of chattering monkeys' permanently interrupting you , no matter how hard you picture your apple you will appreciate what a 'skill' meditation is but also you may wonder just what it would be like without all that clamor going on inside yer nut!!!!

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
    (My mind is especially empty when I sleep; no dreams here)

    You mean 'no memories of dreams here'

    Sadly most drugs (alchohol, cannabis coffee etc.) do interfere with dream sleep but that is remedied by increasing the 'daydreams' a person has. If you have a few beers/glasses of wine before bed then you'll not remeber much.

    If you wanted to try and 'catch' your first dream on entering sleep you could try this;

    When you lie down to sleep lay your arm to your side and raise it up from the elbow so it sticks straight up. As you enter your first REM you also release your first dose of 'body number' and so your arm collapses waking you up. You should have the last moments of sleep/dream in your mind as you wake.

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    Posted
  • Location: Heswall, Wirral
  • Weather Preferences: Summer: warm, humid, thundery. Winter: mild, stormy, some snow.
  • Location: Heswall, Wirral
    I don't intend to be dismissive, only it seems that as meditation is about emptying the mind and relaxing it is just the same as sleep. So what's so special?

    When you're asleep surely your mind is not empty, it is most active, more active than in waking - it is probably the most stressful time of the day - as your mind is most active.

    As for me, I do take the time to relax, and I am a very relaxed person but can get quite irritated sometimes. When I am relaxed the world does seem to have value and beauty beyond the hustle and bustle of synthetic life and survival!

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......

    Maybe the 'art' of meditating is the one thing (physiologically) that we do different from the rest of primates/animal kingdom and so marks out practitioners as 'above' mere reflex, knee jerk existance of the rest of nature.....just a thought!

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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    I've never looked into it in detail however i do tdo the whole sit sown and clear your mind thing everynow and then (mostly when i'm annoyed) and it is very relaxing, it has also been proven that people who meditate are happier people.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
    The blight of modern living is stress. Stress leads to us 'deploying' our 'fight or flight' measures which limit many areas of the bodies functions.

    In it's evolution as a response 'fight or flight' was never meant to be a 'long term' deployment, meant only for short term deployment whist the stress situation existed. In todays world we 'deploy' the reaction to many stimulus that are not truely 'life threatening' but are merely mental constructs to deal and respond to our day to day living. As such the signal to deploy becomes so frequent, and it's deployment so long lived, that many bodies 'habitualise' to that setting/state of being and it becomes our 'normal baseline' (habitualisation is the way we 'filter out' constant stimuli that we deem 'unnecessary info'. Think of the ticking of a clock, you become so used to it you 'habitualise to the ticking and no longer consciously hear it. As soon as the clock stops you register the change in your environment and 'hear' that it has stopped so it is with your body)

    If you think of a body living day to day that is unable to digest food properly due to the shut down of the blood vessels taking the nutrients into the bloodstream, a mind working overtime to isolate the perceived 'threat, increased adrenal activity leading to inability to 'relax' because you are so pumped up, lack of blood to the skin affecting body temp/humidity control, sleeplessness and fatigue leading to reactive depression .

    This, I imagine, is a picture of a person whose 'fight or flight' response is 'broken' and permanently switched on (habitualise to the 'deployed' setting). In time it WILL lead to a collapse of the bodies systems that are running out of kilter with the norm and putting pressures on some bodily systems whilst reducing the affects of other necessary bodily functions.

    For us the Scenar quite easily 'switches off' any habitualise settings by allowing the body to 'explore' its inputs/signals and 'reset' any that are deployed when they oughtn't .

    Meditation, by quietening the 'cage of chattering monkeys' may also afford the body the opportunity to explore it's onboard systems whist it is not being permanently dragged away from the task by conscious thought.

    Some interesting posts there.

    Yes, I do feel that a lot of people suffering from stress have their 'fight or flight' systems sort of more switched on than others; and that is likely to aggravate their central nervous system and cause health problems further down the line.

    I'm also interested in the relationship between bodily energies (call it 'electricity' if you like) and the brain, spinal cord and nervous system. Is the brain the equivalent of a computer memory or processor; and the body energies the equivalent of the electricity supply and the raw data which the brain interprets and sorts to energise and articulate the bodily functions? I find this to be a provoking thought, because it would imply that the electricity in our bodies means that we are 'plugged-in' to an electromagnetic earth field as well as a solar field. Energies from food\drink and oxygen are also transmitters of this etheric energy and can be regarded as part of this mysterious energy 'socket'.

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
    Some interesting posts there.

    Yes, I do feel that a lot of people suffering from stress have their 'fight or flight' systems sort of more switched on than others; and that is likely to aggravate their central nervous system and cause health problems further down the line.

    I'm also interested in the relationship between bodily energies (call it 'electricity' if you like) and the brain, spinal cord and nervous system. Is the brain the equivalent of a computer memory or processor; and the body energies the equivalent of the electricity supply and the raw data which the brain interprets and sorts to energise and articulate the bodily functions? I find this to be a provoking thought, because it would imply that the electricity in our bodies means that we are 'plugged-in' to an electromagnetic earth field as well as a solar field. Energies from food\drink and oxygen are also transmitters of this etheric energy and can be regarded as part of this mysterious energy 'socket'.

    And as i don't seem to grow tired of saying, we've only been messing with electricity/field energies for 150yrs and most of that very low brow up until the computer/micro-processor. In stem cell research I wonder how it is communicated too the cell to grow into the given celltype/bodypart? is it all just subtle chemical exchanges or does a coded electrical pulse help carry the info? I know that Genes respond to/communicate with electrical signals so why not?

    Because the body is so electrically busy and well connected it is immposible at present to produce a sophisticated 'map' of common routeways/signal types for all the common systems of the functioning body never mind how external 'fields' can produce effects on health/wellbeing.

    Along with Scenar the Russians use a 'Health Blanket' which effectively does for external electrical interferrence what white noise does for noise pollution and so,after a scenar session,you are 'isolated' in the blanket so as not to 'swamp' the internal dialogue going on throughout your nervous system that you have promoted with the scenar device.

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
    Here is a graphical presentation of the Chakra\energy system in the body. Click on the red 'Welcome' text to navigate through the menus.

    Cheers P.P.!

    I hope more than you and me can be bothered to wade through it all!!

    It takes less time to have a small 'Med' than to watch an episode of the simpsons and I'm sure most folk could find a bit of time a few days a week to try it out.

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    Posted
  • Location: New Zealand
  • Location: New Zealand

    Quite interesting, but not entirely free of religious dogma. Quite where the ten commandments or the requirement for sex to be only within marriage enters into an ancient indian system of working with the bodies own energy, well, who knows?

    I actually find it quite frustrating that there are so many out there that profess to know so much of the system, and so few ready to admit that very few know more than very little. Yet, somehow people are oh so ready to ascribe and intertwine their own values and "modern" knowledge into an ancient system that's barely understood and somehow profess to the world its correct interpretation. I guess that's the real definition of "new age" though.

    Sometimes it's better to take things back to a more basic form to better understand them. For this reason, I personally hope to see a "new new-age" sometime soon, where people are centered more on how much they don't understand, rather than wax lyrical about how much they do (and inevitably don't).

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
    Quite interesting, but not entirely free of religious dogma. Quite where the ten commandments or the requirement for sex to be only within marriage enters into an ancient indian system of working with the bodies own energy, well, who knows?

    I actually find it quite frustrating that there are so many out there that profess to know so much of the system, and so few ready to admit that very few know more than very little. Yet, somehow people are oh so ready to ascribe and intertwine their own values and "modern" knowledge into an ancient system that's barely understood and somehow profess to the world its correct interpretation. I guess that's the real definition of "new age" though.

    Sometimes it's better to take things back to a more basic form to better understand them. For this reason, I personally hope to see a "new new-age" sometime soon, where people are centered more on how much they don't understand, rather than wax lyrical about how much they do (and inevitably don't).

    Religious dogma is for a particular stance and for a particular religion. Sahaja Yoga is not a religion and so it is free of dogma, its a method of uncovering spirituality and realising the unity of religions - rather than the narrow dogmatic nature of particular texts. Better to accept the universal truths from ALL of them and leave out the negative aspects, than to just reject everything. If anything, people from different dogmas will accuse you of being a 'drifter' or 'picking and choosing' what you personally interpret as truth.

    Some people see science as truth...but science should be extended to spiritual\etheric science which is beyond the boundaries of what we can currently measure.

    I agree with you though that there are too many arrogant people out there who claim to know more of these things than they really do. Although from your tone I sense you're being a bit too cynical here.

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    Posted
  • Location: New Zealand
  • Location: New Zealand

    No, I was specifically referencing two statements in the text - one being that the ten petals of the void represented the ten commandments, and an earlier statement on the subject of sex and the base chakra (which was pretty good untill it pretty much suggested that only sex within marriage was spiritually OK. Niether of these statements would have been found in the system as concieved and intended.

    I don't think I'm being particularly cynical at all. I actually recognise that more and more people in this world are opening up to a ll sorts of spiritual and esoteric possibilities. Unfortuantely though, there's too much of a tendancy for people to taint these things with their own personal values and "knowledge" before they even understand what exactly it is that they are tainting.

    It's far better to truly know what something is before taking it upon oneself to change it. The trouble with changing something before understanding it is that all context and meaning eventually becomes lost.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
    No, I was specifically referencing two statements in the text - one being that the ten petals of the void represented the ten commandments, and an earlier statement on the subject of sex and the base chakra (which was pretty good untill it pretty much suggested that only sex within marriage was spiritually OK. Niether of these statements would have been found in the system as concieved and intended.

    I don't think I'm being particularly cynical at all. I actually recognise that more and more people in this world are opening up to a ll sorts of spiritual and esoteric possibilities. Unfortuantely though, there's too much of a tendancy for people to taint these things with their own personal values and "knowledge" before they even understand what exactly it is that they are tainting.

    It's far better to truly know what something is before taking it upon oneself to change it. The trouble with changing something before understanding it is that all context and meaning eventually becomes lost.

    I agree with you to an extent.

    I think its a typical over-tendency of us men to over-categorise or compartmentalize 'the inexplicable'. If anything, if you were experiencing 'the void' then you would certainly not be contemplating any 'commandments'. And I think the 'petals' are symbolic and probably number more than ten anyway.

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......

    I get the feeling that the 'religious' content of the paper is really an attempt to bring Western parallels to Eastern philosophy.

    I also have issues with people 'overlaying' what they'd like to imagine was there onto things that they can have no true knowledge of (modern day druids and some swathes of practical Wiccan, not just christianity/muslim theology)

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    I think these experiences are partially explained by many different religions; but no particular religion can ever 100% explain the actual reality of the states of consciousness you would experience.

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    Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
    I think these experiences are partially explained by many different religions; but no particular religion can ever 100% explain the actual reality of the states of consciousness you would experience.

    That is 'apart from mine!' (and maybe yours?)

    It's all a bit 'Zen and the art....' but if you have to divide science ,art and religion to make sense of it all you're on the wrong track (IMHO).

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