Antarctica

[Solar Cycles]

hey gray wolf how abou this lol antartic ice melt lol where?.

Don't worry badboy657, all that ice is down to AGW don't you know!

[Gray-Wolf]

Yawn.....

I'll take the difference (in tonnage) in Gold between the extra ice left at sea ice min and the amount (tonnage) lost over the same period of shelf/ice sheet/Glacier.

In fact I'll take the difference in Tonnage of the amount of ice lost since 08' to the amount of ice regrown since 08'?

The Arctic is becoming a mirror of the Antarctic.No matter how much sea ice it grows over winter it is shed it over summer.

The problem is that the Antarctic is becoming ever more like the Arctic....the glaciers are retreating the ice sheet is loosing mass, the shelfs are collapsing.

[Solar Cycles]

Yawn.....

I'll take the difference (in tonnage) in Gold between the extra ice left at sea ice min and the amount (tonnage) lost over the same period of shelf/ice sheet/Glacier.

In fact I'll take the difference in Tonnage of the amount of ice lost since 08' to the amount of ice regrown since 08'?

The Arctic is becoming a mirror of the Antarctic.No matter how much sea ice it grows over winter it is shed it over summer.

The problem is that the Antarctic is becoming ever more like the Arctic....the glaciers are retreating the ice sheet is loosing mass, the shelfs are collapsing.

Absolutely no evidence to back up such wild claims!

[MR EXTREMES]

Yawn.....

I'll take the difference (in tonnage) in Gold between the extra ice left at sea ice min and the amount (tonnage) lost over the same period of shelf/ice sheet/Glacier.

In fact I'll take the difference in Tonnage of the amount of ice lost since 08' to the amount of ice regrown since 08'?

The Arctic is becoming a mirror of the Antarctic.No matter how much sea ice it grows over winter it is shed it over summer.

The problem is that the Antarctic is becoming ever more like the Arctic....the glaciers are retreating the ice sheet is loosing mass, the shelfs are collapsing.

there has been nothing major going on in both poles in the last couple of years and its a cert that in antartica it fairs better that the arctic but nothing really extreme is happening,

add on the switch around that we are now below dalton minimum in respect of sun activity then i expect some changes to happen.

the whole climate change theory and man made global warming episode is right up in the air right now gray wolf i think your blind sided by the whole catastrophic global warming theory but still where see whos right in the end.

[BLAST FROM THE PAST]

Yawn.....

I'll take the difference (in tonnage) in Gold between the extra ice left at sea ice min and the amount (tonnage) lost over the same period of shelf/ice sheet/Glacier.

In fact I'll take the difference in Tonnage of the amount of ice lost since 08' to the amount of ice regrown since 08'?

The Arctic is becoming a mirror of the Antarctic.No matter how much sea ice it grows over winter it is shed it over summer.

The problem is that the Antarctic is becoming ever more like the Arctic....the glaciers are retreating the ice sheet is loosing mass, the shelfs are collapsing.

Completely wrong GW and stop leading folk up the garden path.

BFTP

[osmposm]

hey gray wolf how abou this lol antartic ice melt lol where?.

I'm totally confused by that video, and the claims made for it. I've watched it through eight or nine times now, pausing, reversing, trying to make sense of it.

The first part shows the seasonal growth and shrinkage of the cover - supposedly from Sept 2002 to March 2009 (but without the date coding until Oct 2007). So we should see seven summer minima, in February-March 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08 & 09. But in fact we only see SIX minima - 08 & 09 (coded) plus just four others - they come at about 0.07, 0.18, 0.33, 0.40, 0.53 & 1.09 on the timer. So something is missing, and the video is, well, pretty meaningless.

But even if it did have all the winter-summer cycles that it should, I'd be struggling to see in it evidence of a recovery, as claimed. Because the shape (as well as the extent) of the ice cover changes, it is very difficult to compare the coverages being shown. But one thing that does seem clear is that the Feb 2009 minimum shown doesn't look much higher than any other of the years shown, and does seem below several.

Because that is only my uncertain and subjective view, it's best to check with something clearer to read. Go to the Cryosphere site where the images come from, and look at the graph of Southern Hemisphere ice: http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.area.south.jpg

Actually, I'll post the image too:

This confirms what I thought I could see from the video. The summer minimum in early 2009 was in fact comparable with 2005 & 2007, slightly above 2006, and appreciably below 2003, 2004 & 2008.

The second part of the video is even more bizarre. It shows two different views of the normal-looking ice growth from March to June this year; it doesn't show any comparison images at all. What is that supposed to demonstrate? Doesn't the guy realise it re-grows every year as the Southern Hemisphere goes into winter? I'm even more confused.

So, badboy & Solar, what is it in the video that you can see but I can't? Neither the video nor the graph seems to show any ice minimum recovery over the period the video poster shows, does it? The lowest year in the satellite record, incidentally, was 1993, but that's a different discussion.

Edited July 30, 2009 by osmposm

[Gray-Wolf]

I think that folk haven't got a handle on the fact that ,once the sun goes down for winter at either pole, it gets very cold and the sea freezes.We've seen it (over the past few years) over on the Arctic thread and ,up there at least, I think I have found a correlation!..... The more ice that melts over summer leads to a greater clamour at ice reformation in Autumn ..simpuls.

The sad truth is that the Antarctic is a far more complex situation than the Arctic but it is also far more of a threat to our continuation (BAU) due to the amount of water it holds locked up in the ice sheets.

The Ozone problem was the earliest I knew of our Global impacts on the atmosphere of our planet (and not just regional like Acid rain) and the loss of Ozone is a the heart of some of the 'peculiarities' to the Antarctic continents climate. For those who gloat over the splendid isolation that we have placed the continent in I would add that this temporary barrier to global temperature rises seems to have been breached and mainly due to the impacts that the ozone depletion has brought about.

The Circumpolar wind, which drives the circumpolar current has brought about a mixing of the waters around Antarctica.This has led to the warmer ocean waters now being over turned by the cold bottom waters and which then flow into the Antarctic coastline producing the likes of the Wilkins ice shelf collapse in mid-winter (even with freezing temps above) warm water WILL melt out the ice from below and lead to structural collapse of the mass of ice above.

It is not a case of whether or not the ice sheets will increase their melt rates (WAIS already adds a similar amount as the melt from the Greenland ice sheet) but when.

[MR EXTREMES]

to be honest i did say that antarctic ice fairs better than the arctic but i have decided that this whole melt thing is becoming very much a broken record thing.

id say the video was suggesting ice growth and recovery.

but i just found it and put it on here,

maybe it is a silly video that means nothing really your welcome to pick holes in it,

because all i do know is ice melts and refreezes more some years more than others,

but it would never matter what i write,

because i dont know the answers to why or when or who or what is causing the recovery or the melts infact no one on the planet knows whats going to happen next and if we go by certain individuals then doom is apon us,

but thank god for the other side of the debate logical thinking not theorys and maybes.

solar minimum is here for now and all the time its stays,

colder planet earth will come this is a proven fact,

and i dont care what people say its already happening i dont need to be a scientist to know this.

i also notice the same rubbish is spoken in here just because its happening in the arctic.

antarctica is the biggest body of ice on planet earth it would take hundreds if not a thousand years to melt completely and in that time scale i think its silly to even talk about it,

in my mind arctic melt is in not the best state antarctic is fine.

it is also said that planet earth was nearly covered in ice completely evidence is proven in deserts,

now this happened a long long time ago so what caused this to melt back haha there you go was not man made global warming then and this happened after the dinosaur era which is soposed to be the warmist point on planet earth.

i think the melting and global warming thing is a egg on face moment wait and see would be the answer of the day.

[osmposm]

id say the video was suggesting ice growth and recovery.

but i just found it and put it on here,

maybe it is a silly video that means nothing really your welcome to pick holes in it.....

But might it not be an idea to look into something before you post it, mate, to see whether or not it is vaguely accurate & informative?

If you post something, I assume you are saying "Hey, people, look at this - I think this adds something to the discussion" - even better if you explain what. If all you are saying is "Whahaaaaaay, look what I found - haven't a clue what it means or anything, but it's fun to watch" then I am....well, a little disappointed.

I spent a long time analysing that video because I assumed you were making a point by posting it (and Solar ditto by effectively supporting it). If it's just a casual thing that you haven't thought through, then I will know not to bother in future - that seems reasonable, doesn't it?

Sorry to be so blunt, but life is short, and my time and energy limited like everyone's.

[Methuselah]

but thank god for the other side of the debate logical thinking not theorys and maybes.

But, what is the other side of the debate badboy? What good is 'logical thinking' if it's devoid of evidence and theory? Isn't it more worthwhile to apply one's capacity for 'logical thought' to theory and evidence, rather than working backwards from your conclusion - that AGW is a myth?

[MR EXTREMES]

But, what is the other side of the debate badboy? What good is 'logical thinking' if it's devoid of evidence and theory? Isn't it more worthwhile to apply one's capacity for 'logical thought' to theory and evidence, rather than working backwards from your conclusion - that AGW is a myth?

no im not saying myth im saying natural.

as for the video it shows a return to normal levels of ice recovery and better ice coverage. :lol:

[osmposm]

....as for the video it shows a return to normal levels of ice recovery and better ice coverage.

But badboy, it doesn't show any such thing. Or at least if it does, could you explain exactly where and how? Have you not read my extensive post of a day or two ago, analysing it in detail, and asking you the same question?

Please read it, and then (if possible) address each of the points I made and explain why I am mistaken. If you don't I will have to assume that you have not understood what the video represents - as opposed to what the video's poster says it represents.

Edited August 1, 2009 by osmposm

[Gray-Wolf]

http://www.scienceda...90814100105.htm

Pine is one of the outlet glaciers for the West Antarctic ice sheet.

I still do not understand how winter sea ice is a good indicator of the mass loss occurring in Antarctica.

It occurs to me that once the likes of Wilkins collapses it places a lot of 'perennial ice' into the ocean along with the 'home grown' seasonal ice.

How do you remove this anom. from the sea ice extent figures?

If we look at max sea ice extent from the collapse of LarsenB onwards there has been a lot of bergs produced that will become trapped in the winter freeze up and bolster ice amounts in certain sectors.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Gray-Wolf

[Nights King]

I couldnt find a different thread for antarctica so thought id ask here.

I have seen reports on the web that say antarctica is growing and there is evidence to sugest that eastern parts of it might even be getting colder? can anyone prove or disprove this?

Can anyone explain this abit more because i know very little when it comes to the poles although i do lurk alot and find the discussions quite interesting.

If they are growing then surely if 80% of ice is down there (or however much it is i am not sure) then you could say majority of glaciers are growing?

Edited October 7, 2009 by mullender83

[stewfox]

I couldnt find a different thread for antarctica so thought id ask here.

I have seen reports on the web that say antarctica is growing and there is evidence to sugest that eastern parts of it might even be getting colder? can anyone prove or disprove this?

Can anyone explain this abit more because i know very little when it comes to the poles although i do lurk alot and find the discussions quite interesting.

If they are growing then surely if 80% of ice is down there (or however much it is i am not sure) then you could say majority of glaciers are growing?

There is a thread for it here, maybe moderators will move your comment and mine to it

http://www.netweather.tv/forum/topic/47197-antarctica/page__st__221

I would be interested to hear peoples views

[Gray-Wolf]

http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/press/press_releases/press_release.php?id=989

As we can see the WAIS is undergoing dynamic changes with the loss of their ice shelfs freeing up the outlet glaciers behind.

Further up the thread we had the NASA report on the snow melt now being measured well inland and at high elevations on the Trans Antarctic mountains.

We also have studies from the 'Polar Year' teams of warm water ingress under the ice shelfs and up to the coasts (instrumental in the collapse of Wilkins last Antarctic winter).

As has been said on many occasions Antarctica is a very different issue to the Arctic.For one it is a high ,mountainous continent straddling the pole (remember Kilimanjaro still has snow patches at it's summit even though it's on the equator so you'd kinda expect at 2 miles high with 111 days of darkness each year that the central dome would be a tad chilly!).

We then have to factor in the impacts of the ozone hole there and it's impact on the circumpolar winds which ,in their turn, impact the circumpolar current isolating (until recently) most of the continent from the southern ocean's warmth.Add to that the Katabatic winds streaming out from the center and you have a unique polar situation.

All of that said we are obviously starting to see the impacts of warming across the peninsula and now further into WAIS,With the closing of the ozone hole over the next decades the coast of Antarctica (east and West) will start to react to the oceans warmth in the same way that the peninsula has over the last 15yrs.

When you consider that the partially grounded Ross ice shelf is the size of France and holds back the main outlet glaciers from EAIS you can see why folk are focusing on the stability there.

At the moment I'd suggest we focus on the Pine Island area if we wish to see how quickly changes can occur (losses of up to 9m a year from areas of the glacier and the feeding ice sheet).

We also saw last year that the amount of sea level rise attributed to Antarctica exceeded Greenland for the first time.

There is far more to Antarctica than increased snowfall across the peninsula,

[jethro]

Apologies for the source of this (references are included for those who want to read further):

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2009/10/06/antarctic-ice-melt-at-lowest-levels-in-satellite-era/

"The ice melt across during the Antarctic summer (October-January) of 2008-2009 was the lowest ever recorded in the satellite history."

[Gray-Wolf]

Probably better if we read the abstract and cut the spin

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2009GL039186.shtml

I've seen papers as far back as 94' linking the ENSO signature with ice melt/retention in Antarctica and as we know SAM had been running quite positive through the back end of last year/start of this.

Seeing as we also had one of the biggest Ozone holes last time it would appear that all of the pieces that help keep Antarctica cold were in place for that season.If we look at the sea ice figures over their winter we'll also find they were strongly positive.

We have to be careful not to try and utilize recognized drivers as proofs against AGW lest we set precedents for when the self same drivers enter their opposite phase and augment AGW. As it is the current building Nino' will have it's impacts across Antarctica (over either a 1 or 4 year time span) and our global efforts to reduce the Ozone hole will bring there own proofs of how much this has impacted Antarctic temps over the past 20 years.

[jethro]

Not utilizing anything against AGW here, merely showing that it isn't all doom and gloom and that Antarctica had a good year; I think for the sake of balance, it's important to recognise the bad and good.

[MR EXTREMES]

Not utilizing anything against AGW here, merely showing that it isn't all doom and gloom and that Antarctica had a good year; I think for the sake of balance, it's important to recognise the bad and good.

very much much agree also the antarctic is something thats less so to worry about that the arctic most likely less land around antarctic as the arctic have lots of countries close in comparson to antarctic,

theres also much more ice there it would take 100s if not 100os of years to melt that lot.

[Snow Leopard]

very much much agree also the antarctic is something thats less so to worry about that the arctic most likely less land around antarctic as the arctic have lots of countries close in comparson to antarctic,

theres also much more ice there it would take 100s if not 100os of years to melt that lot.

From what I have read overall Antarctic ice is increasing (IPCC calls it "variable" and "no significant trend") Is this widely reported, NO?

There is ample evidence that similar melting events have happened in recent history at both poles as well as in Greenland. Is this widely reported, NO.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Snow Leopard

[Devonian]

From what I have read overall Antarctic ice is increasing (IPCC calls it "variable" and "no significant trend") Is this widely reported, NO?

If it's significant, it's not as significant as the decline in the Arctic. Also, it might well be the case that changes to atmospheric circulation due to warming are drawing more cold air towards the sea from the frigid Antarctic plateau.

There is ample evidence that similar melting events have happened in recent history at both poles as well as in Greenland. Is this widely reported, NO.

Well, if there is 'ample' evidence of 'similar melting events have happened in recent history at both poles as well as in Greenland lets have, what, three example please.

[BLAST FROM THE PAST]

Probably better if we read the abstract and cut the spin

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2009GL039186.shtml

Do I need a glass of wine? Isn't that report saying that low snow melt aka colder temps were down partly to +ve ENSO [El Nino] phase in 2008/9?

Were we not still in La Nina until this year? Or is La Nina +ve phase????

BFTP

[Gray-Wolf]

Well we're drawing to that time of year that winter releases her icy grip on the Southern continent.

Will we find that all that sea ice just disappears (as normal) or will Antarctica hold onto more than is normal (showing that things are cooler than normal down there?).

How will the ice from the collapsed Wilkins fare? will it float away leading to more collapse behind in the remaining shelf?

What of the Pine glacier region? More rapid calving at the glacier front leading to more loss from the glacier above?

And what of the "oh so secure" Ross ice shelf and 'my big crack'?.... any changes to be witnessed in this 'safer than safe' zone?

Tune in in Jan/Feb when all will be revealed......

Edited October 16, 2009 by Gray-Wolf

[Snow Leopard]

If it's significant, it's not as significant as the decline in the Arctic. Also, it might well be the case that changes to atmospheric circulation due to warming are drawing more cold air towards the sea from the frigid Antarctic plateau.

Well, if there is 'ample' evidence of 'similar melting events have happened in recent history at both poles as well as in Greenland lets have, what, three example please.

Oh Dear.....

OK, just for fun:

1. Global sea ice levels are now actually higher than they were in 1979/80 - thanks to NOAA

But seeing that the focus here seems to be the Northern Hemisphere lets have a look at Greenland and the Arctic.

2. Arctic - Read the books about Norwegian explorer Fridtjof Nansen, he officially travelled further north in open water than anyone. This occurred in 1893 in a kayak. Unfortunately no satellites around at the time

- More recently in 1922 an expedition by the Norwegian Department of Commerce reported large scale ice loss all the way up to 81.5 degrees north. See how far north on a map, just for interest. Anyway this is from the NOAA archive no less. 1922 Arctic Expedition- And while I am here please do read the comment from Capt Martin Ingebrigtsen, very interesting comment as well.

3. Greenland - Ice sheet contracted significantly during the middle ages : Alley P, Mayewski P, Peel D, Stauffer B (1996). "Twin Ice Cores From Greenland Reveal History of Climate Change"

- Previous colonisation of a warmer Greenland by the Vikings : Vikings

- Greenland warmer during the Medieval Warm Period than now : Wagner, B. and Melles, M. 2001. "A Holocene seabird record from Raffles So sediments, East Greenland, in response to climatic and oceanic changes."

Anyway I will stop there. There is a lot more, but instead I think I would rather make the point that the subject is vastly more complex than most make it out to be.

PS: Has anyone noticed that the Arctic has recorded a record recovery in sea ice in '08/'09

PPS: Sorry mods, just seen focus of my post is not antarctic, feel free to move it as appropriate.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Snow Leopard