The Hadron collider

[Jane Louise]

Hi Mick,

I have been following the beams via the website http://www.lhcportal.com/ they did have a couple hitches in one or two sectors last night but everything seems to be going fine now.

To anybody who wants To see how beams are progressing click on the link which says " Page 1"

at the above website address:

[paul tall]

What is it they are trying to do in this collider?

Will it cause snow?

[cyclonic happiness]

What is it they are trying to do in this collider?

Will it cause snow?

Yeah, a nuclear winter if we are lucky :lol:

Seriously, Why do they want to know the inner workings of the universe anyway? They'll never be able to do that, the universe if infinate and so is time, just think of the amount of tax payers money they could waste bearing that in mind

[J07]

Seriously, Why do they want to know the inner workings of the universe anyway? They'll never be able to do that, the universe if infinate and so is time, just think of the amount of tax payers money they could waste bearing that in mind

What a soul destroying response.

[Methuselah]

Yeah, a nuclear winter if we are lucky

Seriously, Why do they want to know the inner workings of the universe anyway? They'll never be able to do that, the universe if infinate and so is time, just think of the amount of tax payers money they could waste bearing that in mind

How can they both be infinite, when the best evidence points to the contrary?

[Nick L]

The universe isn't infinite, it is ever expanding.

[butler_son]

The universe isn't infinite, it is ever expanding.

I used to ask my physics teacher at school what was existed outside the universe - i.e. what is it expanding into? Somehow, he never gave me a satisfactory response...

[A.J]

What a soul destroying response.

J07, I coudlnt agree more!

[paul tall]

The universe isn't infinite, it is ever expanding.

If it is "ever" expanding then it will expand for infinity and becomes of infinite size.

I'm not saying that is the case though, just picking you up on your point.

As we cannot see beyond the event horizon then we do not know what is beyond it, if anything, so certainly cannot say for sure that "the universe isn't infinite" we just do not and cannot know.

[Nick L]

If it is "ever" expanding then it will expand for infinity and becomes of infinite size.

I'm not saying that is the case though, just picking you up on your point.

As we cannot see beyond the event horizon then we do not know what is beyond it, if anything, so certainly cannot say for sure that "the universe isn't infinite" we just do not and cannot know.

Right, I am doing this very subject in A Level Physics now so here goes.

There are 3 possible outcomes for the universe. I will go through each possibility.

1) The open universe - This is where the universe does keep expanding forever, because the overall density is below the critical density which would cause the gravitational forces to pull everything back in again. The density of the VISIBLE matter would suggest that we are in this "open universe" state.

2) The flat universe - This is where the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, so eventually the universe will almost stop expanding and will stay roughly the same size.

3) The closed universe - Where the density is greater than the critical density, meaning that the gravitational forces in the universe would cause it to contract, eventually leading to a "Big Crunch". Current evidence suggests that this may not happen, but there is an unknown amount of "dark matter" out there, about which very little is known. But if the current estimates of this "dark matter" are correct, then there is easily substantial density to enable the universe to being to contract.

But here is a key sentence from my Physics textbook:

As always in physics, the solution of one problem leads to many other questions. There is always plenty to discover, and there is no end to possible questions.

Because of that, I think the LHC is vital to help shed some light on what the universe is actually doing/has done.

I used to ask my physics teacher at school what was existed outside the universe - i.e. what is it expanding into? Somehow, he never gave me a satisfactory response...

Nothing apparently. And nothing existed before the big bang, not even time itself. I told my physics teacher that this was impossible for me to get my head round. He explained it that the human mind doesn't want to venture into the theory of "nothing", so we naturally reject the possibility. It really is fascinating stuff though.

Edited November 22, 2009 by nick2702

[A.J]

Right, I am doing this very subject in A Level Physics now so here goes.

There are 3 possible outcomes for the universe. I will go through each possibility.

1) The open universe - This is where the universe does keep expanding forever, because the overall density is below the critical density which would cause the gravitational forces to pull everything back in again. The density of the VISIBLE matter would suggest that we are in this "open universe" state.

2) The flat universe - This is where the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, so eventually the universe will almost stop expanding and will stay roughly the same size.

3) The closed universe - Where the density is greater than the critical density, meaning that the gravitational forces in the universe would cause it to contract, eventually leading to a "Big Crunch". Current evidence suggests that this may not happen, but there is an unknown amount of "dark matter" out there, about which very little is known. But if the current estimates of this "dark matter" are correct, then there is easily substantial density to enable the universe to being to contract.

But here is a key sentence from my Physics textbook:

As always in physics, the solution of one problem leads to many other questions. There is always plenty to discover, and there is no end to possible questions.

Because of that, I think the LHC is vital to help shed some light on what the universe is actually doing/has done.

1) possibly

2) likely

3) no chance

I really hope that 'a' level physics books are updated soon, because otherwise we might as well be teaching students how to boil an egg!....... Nick, a couple of good reads for you....

'The 5 ages of the universe' by Greg Laughlin & Fred Adams, and 'Physics of the Impossible' by Michio Kaku......

[butler_son]

Nothing apparently. And nothing existed before the big bang, not even time itself. I told my physics teacher that this was impossible for me to get my head round. He explained it that the human mind doesn't want to venture into the theory of "nothing", so we naturally reject the possibility. It really is fascinating stuff though.

I was doing AS Physics at the time - I suppose he would have actually liked some students to have carried on to A2, so probably wanted to keep me curious. Unfortunately for him, 5 A-Levels were too much and I wasn't ditching French.

As you say about "nothing" - I guess this is why we like believe in life after death. It is impossible for the mind to comprehend existence before birth or after death. I've tried, and failed often.

[A.J]

I was doing AS Physics at the time - I suppose he would have actually liked some students to have carried on to A2, so probably wanted to keep me curious. Unfortunately for him, 5 A-Levels were too much and I wasn't ditching French.

As you say about "nothing" - I guess this is why we like believe in life after death. It is impossible for the mind to comprehend existence before birth or after death. I've tried, and failed often.

Thats why I'd hate being a teacher....teaching a subject that with current textbooks, is already 10 years obsolete!

[cyclonic happiness]

Sorry i cocked up my point lol, What I was trying to say is that seeing as there is no point ever in which we will know the answers we are looking for.

And as one of you asked, how can I prove that the universe is infinate?

If it wasn't, then there wouldn't be much point to anything would there?

Infinity is inspirational, it gives me the knowledge that everything I could ever dream of doing or dream of exsisting, actually DOES exsist.

So.....knowing that...there's not really much point in looking for the answers to the universe, is there?

How can they both be infinite, when the best evidence points to the contrary?

I can see and imagine infinity already.....the foolish part would be trying to prove it

[A.J]

Sorry i cocked up my point lol, What I was trying to say is that seeing as there is no point ever in which we will know the answers we are looking for.

And as one of you asked, how can I prove that the universe is infinate?

If it wasn't, then there wouldn't be much point to anything would there?

Infinity is inspirational, it gives me the knowledge that everything I could ever dream of doing or dream of exsisting, actually DOES exsist.

So.....knowing that...there's not really much point in looking for the answers to the universe, is there?

So, we should crawl back under our collective stone and not try and better ourselves.....because basically, thats the what your saying....

Oh btw, I agree with the your highlighted statement to a point....unfortunatley, last night I slept with Cheryl Cole in a parrallel universe, and quite frankly she's not all she's cracked up to be !...

[butler_son]

Thats why I'd hate being a teacher....teaching a subject that with current textbooks, is already 10 years obsolete!

At A-Level Biology, we were told there were only 5 kingdom classifications for organisms. Pretty much my first lecture at university studying Biochemistry, we were duly told there were 6. Lovely.

[cyclonic happiness]

So, we should crawl back under our collective stone and not try and better ourselves.....because basically, thats the what your saying....

Oh btw, I agree with the your highlighted statement to a point....unfortunatley, last night I slept with Cheryl Cole in a parrallel universe, and quite frankly she's not all she's cracked up to be !...

Ahhh but in an infinate amout of universes ...she's amazing!!!

I'm not sure though that the scientists with this collider, are out to better human kind?

They are just looking too hard and missing the point.

We all better ourselves as best we can anyway, but we never seem to get the the exact spot in our exsistance that we want to be in.

what I'm trying to say is that, we don't need to build a multi billion pound machine when, if we took the time to think about it, most of us already know the answers.

Edited November 22, 2009 by cyclonic happiness

[butler_son]

Ahhh but in an infinate amout of universes ...she's amazing!!!

And from somewhere other than Newcastle, preferably!

[A.J]

Ahhh but in an infinate amout of universes ...she's amazing!!!

I'm not sure though that the scientists with this collider, are out to better human kind?

They are just looking too hard and missing the point.

erm, would you mind 'sat-naving' me directions to that particluar universe?...cheers...

Back on topic....The LHC is a great idea, but IMHO, could be years from realising its goal...What scientists are looking for is as they label 'the grand unified theory'.....which is the common ground between current cosmological theory (see einstein's cosmological constant) and quantum theory.....the two theories in a nutshell dont 'get on'...

[cyclonic happiness]

erm, would you mind 'sat-naving' me directions to that particluar universe?...cheers...

Back on topic....The LHC is a great idea, but IMHO, could be years from realising its goal...What scientists are looking for is as they label 'the grand unified theory'.....which is the common ground between current cosmological theory (see einstein's cosmological constant) and quantum theory.....the two theories in a nutshell dont 'get on'...

Ahhh so that's what's written on the 2 bundles of particles that they are gonna blast together?

[cyclonic happiness]

Trouble with trying to get to other "infinties" is that it would be really difficult to tell if you had.

For example.....

There are an infinate number of different universes where the only difference is that 1 atom of 1 grain of sand in the sahara, is slightly different to another.

Same you same me, same conversations, same amount of breaths and heartbeats, same amount of everything in the universe, but that 1 atom.

We probably switch between universes and infinities all the time, it's just infinately difficult to know.

Time is the one thing I've yet to get my head around, but i'm sure I will.

As it stands, it seems to me that time radiates from "one's self" In every direction, but it's like standing at the north pole where every direction is south.

I don't think time travel is possible as such, because there isn't reallt a need for it, infinity sorts that out, for example...you can think that you have time traveled when really you have just gone to another of those infinate realities, with the grain of sand, do you see what I mean?

[A.J]

Trouble with trying to get to other "infinties" is that it would be really difficult to tell if you had.

For example.....

There are an infinate number of different universes where the only difference is that 1 atom of 1 grain of sand in the sahara, is slightly different to another.

Same you same me, same conversations, same amount of breaths and heartbeats, same amount of everything in the universe, but that 1 atom.

We probably switch between universes and infinities all the time, it's just infinately difficult to know.

Time is the one thing I've yet to get my head around, but i'm sure I will.

As it stands, it seems to me that time radiates from "one's self" In every direction, but it's like standing at the north pole where every direction is south.

I don't think time travel is possible as such, because there isn't reallt a need for it, infinity sorts that out, for example...you can think that you have time traveled when really you have just gone to another of those infinate realities, with the grain of sand, do you see what I mean?

Its easy....every now and again, I pop down the offie....buy myself a litre bottle of bicardi and a bottle of coke...I then start consuming the above mentioned beverage....The next morning, without fail, the ensuing throbbing of my head convinces me that I've just returned from an excursion from another universe....Utter proof IMHO.....

Edited November 23, 2009 by ajpoolshark

[paul tall]

Right, I am doing this very subject in A Level Physics now so here goes.

There are 3 possible outcomes for the universe. I will go through each possibility.

1) The open universe - This is where the universe does keep expanding forever, because the overall density is below the critical density which would cause the gravitational forces to pull everything back in again. The density of the VISIBLE matter would suggest that we are in this "open universe" state.

2) The flat universe - This is where the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, so eventually the universe will almost stop expanding and will stay roughly the same size.

3) The closed universe - Where the density is greater than the critical density, meaning that the gravitational forces in the universe would cause it to contract, eventually leading to a "Big Crunch". Current evidence suggests that this may not happen, but there is an unknown amount of "dark matter" out there, about which very little is known. But if the current estimates of this "dark matter" are correct, then there is easily substantial density to enable the universe to being to contract.

But here is a key sentence from my Physics textbook:

As always in physics, the solution of one problem leads to many other questions. There is always plenty to discover, and there is no end to possible questions.

Because of that, I think the LHC is vital to help shed some light on what the universe is actually doing/has done.

Nothing apparently. And nothing existed before the big bang, not even time itself. I told my physics teacher that this was impossible for me to get my head round. He explained it that the human mind doesn't want to venture into the theory of "nothing", so we naturally reject the possibility. It really is fascinating stuff though.

Nick you could have a PHD in Physics and you still cannot say for certain, like you did, "the universe is not infinite". That statement is a certainty and there is not one theory which arrives at a conclusion of certainty such as that. We simply do not know.

As for the entire universe popping out from one singularity in nothingness, yes it is indeed mind boggling. As is the thought of the expanding boundary of the universe expanding into...nothing. If there is a boundary. Which we don't know and can't prove.

Trouble with trying to get to other "infinties" is that it would be really difficult to tell if you had.

For example.....

There are an infinate number of different universes where the only difference is that 1 atom of 1 grain of sand in the sahara, is slightly different to another.

Same you same me, same conversations, same amount of breaths and heartbeats, same amount of everything in the universe, but that 1 atom.

We probably switch between universes and infinities all the time, it's just infinately difficult to know.

Time is the one thing I've yet to get my head around, but i'm sure I will.

As it stands, it seems to me that time radiates from "one's self" In every direction, but it's like standing at the north pole where every direction is south.

I don't think time travel is possible as such, because there isn't reallt a need for it, infinity sorts that out, for example...you can think that you have time traveled when really you have just gone to another of those infinate realities, with the grain of sand, do you see what I mean?

Whilst I don't discount the possibility of other dimensions, multiverses etc... the idea of an infinite number of parallel universes where we are having this same conversation and same lifes and everything that goes with it, only difference being one atom, over and over ad infinitum, plus you might as well add universes where all other possibilites are covered, I find that idea rather unlikely.

[cyclonic happiness]

Nick you could have a PHD in Physics and you still cannot say for certain, like you did, "the universe is not infinite". That statement is a certainty and there is not one theory which arrives at a conclusion of certainty such as that. We simply do not know.

As for the entire universe popping out from one singularity in nothingness, yes it is indeed mind boggling. As is the thought of the expanding boundary of the universe expanding into...nothing. If there is a boundary. Which we don't know and can't prove.

Whilst I don't discount the possibility of other dimensions, multiverses etc... the idea of an infinite number of parallel universes where we are having this same conversation and same lifes and everything that goes with it, only difference being one atom, over and over ad infinitum, plus you might as well add universes where all other possibilites are covered, I find that idea rather unlikely.

It's mind boggling but, seems reasonable to me

[Jane Louise]

And they're Off !! Protons have *collided* in the LHC Today.

Read here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8375486.stm

updates here: http://tweetgrid.com/grid?l=2&q1=%23crowbar&q2=LHC&q3=CERN