Politics And AGW/GW

[Methuselah]

Yes we could start with educating climate scientist to begin with!

[Gray-Wolf]

Completely agree SC, the next few years will be critical for the effects of AGW cooling or warming.

The PDO was largely negative for a few years at the start of this decade, then went positive, now it's negative again. But has stayed neutral on the whole. Solar activity is very low and I will be watching solar activity and global temps very closely over the next 12 to 24 months to see if any trends occur.

Though strictly not 'politics' I'm keeping a close eye on the PDO as I fear it is 'changing' and the heat in the oceans, and it's re-distributuion, may well over-ride it paving the way for 'Super El-Nino's'.

If the political will to commit is lacking now then once half of California is either washed into the sea or burnt to a crisp Arnie will have a lot to do with seeing wider action being taken on the issues

[Thundery wintry showers]

That sums everything up from across the AGW camp.. Whatever happens its AGW..

True, but it's all about how much AGW there is. With a bit of luck, it might not be as bad as the majority think, and the events of the past decade certainly provide straws to clutch from that perspective, and at least suggest that for now, it isn't as bad as the warming of the 1980s and 1990s suggested, as that was almost certainly enhanced by natural forcings- the same natural forcings that have moved towards cooler phases in the last decade.

But if the global temperature shows a sharp upward trend towards the mid 2010s, similar to what we saw in the 1980s and 1990s, then we will soon be sent out of this sense of security.

[noggin]

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2...0304130950.aspx

Here is an article about the biased reporting, in the USA, of warming/cooling. From what I have seen in the media here in the UK I would say that the article could just as well have been written about the media here.

[HighPressure]

I know its a bit of a subject change but think its relevant to this thread?

Should I go out and buy a Range Rover, I am seriously not sure what message our government is sending out here? Its a good example of where politics gets itself in a right mess with this issue they are actually telling me both and I am confused.

[Solar Cycles]

I know its a bit of a subject change but think its relevant to this thread?

Should I go out and buy a Range Rover, I am seriously not sure what message our government is sending out here? Its a good example of where politics gets itself in a right mess with this issue they are actually telling me both and I am confused.

I would if I could afford! A supercharged 4.2L one!! :lol:

[jonboy]

True, but it's all about how much AGW there is. With a bit of luck, it might not be as bad as the majority think, and the events of the past decade certainly provide straws to clutch from that perspective, and at least suggest that for now, it isn't as bad as the warming of the 1980s and 1990s suggested, as that was almost certainly enhanced by natural forcings- the same natural forcings that have moved towards cooler phases in the last decade.

But if the global temperature shows a sharp upward trend towards the mid 2010s, similar to what we saw in the 1980s and 1990s, then we will soon be sent out of this sense of security.

The issue will be how we define 'sharp upward trend'. The sun will not stay quiet for long this time round and I have seen many comments on here that suggest that we will see a warming mid 2010's before a significant cooling occurs early 2020's. Hopefully by the time we get to the mid 2010's we will all understand better what drives our climate and all of the many different drives involved and therefore be able to make the right decisions for the right reasons rather than as a knee jerk reaction to a set of possible outcomes still to be proved

[jethro]

I know its a bit of a subject change but think its relevant to this thread?

Should I go out and buy a Range Rover, I am seriously not sure what message our government is sending out here? Its a good example of where politics gets itself in a right mess with this issue they are actually telling me both and I am confused.

Hi HP,

Hubby's been pondering the same - well a Discovery rather than RR.

There's little doubt I think that the government will continue to increase road tax on 4x4's and let's face it, economical to run is not something they're well known for. But...there are some fantastic bargains to be had right now. If you work out how much more you'll pay in tax, factor in the mpg extra costs, then weigh that up against how much cheaper they are to buy now, I think there's never been a better time to buy. There's also the option of getting a gas converted one.

When it comes to whether or not to buy from an eco friendly perspective, erm hard to justify 25mpg against something else doing 45mpg. How long will a Range Rover or Landrover last though? A damn sight longer than most small, eco friendly cars I expect so in the long run, the total carbon cost could well be smaller.

[Gray-Wolf]

Unless we are to leave Luke stranded here we have to have a wheelchair converted vehicle.......and of course we have to fuel it with no help for the 'extra' such a beastie guzzles (motability is gobbled up by their share of the lease costs) .

My point being that some folk (both able bodied and disabled ) need specific vehicles for their lives to function.

Govt. still does not seem to fully grasp this sad fact of life. :blink:

[jethro]

Unless we are to leave Luke stranded here we have to have a wheelchair converted vehicle.......and of course we have to fuel it with no help for the 'extra' such a beastie guzzles (motability is gobbled up by their share of the lease costs) .

My point being that some folk (both able bodied and disabled ) need specific vehicles for their lives to function.

Govt. still does not seem to fully grasp this sad fact of life. :blink:

Absolutely agree.

It drives me mad that sweeping decisions are made in Whitehall about cars/road tax/petrol etc. Use public transport, car share, walk, blah, blah, blah all well and good with the underground and buses every five minutes.

Completely and utterly impractical in my part of the world, with what I do for a living, and in your case, impossible too.

[Gowon]

Hi HP,

Hubby's been pondering the same - well a Discovery rather than RR.

There's little doubt I think that the government will continue to increase road tax on 4x4's and let's face it, economical to run is not something they're well known for. But...there are some fantastic bargains to be had right now. If you work out how much more you'll pay in tax, factor in the mpg extra costs, then weigh that up against how much cheaper they are to buy now, I think there's never been a better time to buy. There's also the option of getting a gas converted one.

When it comes to whether or not to buy from an eco friendly perspective, erm hard to justify 25mpg against something else doing 45mpg. How long will a Range Rover or Landrover last though? A damn sight longer than most small, eco friendly cars I expect so in the long run, the total carbon cost could well be smaller.

Im seriously pondering wether to get a 4 wheel drive, if the winters continue with their snowy theme i will. I echo your thoughts, these people in power want to control our every move.

[Solar Cycles]

Unless we are to leave Luke stranded here we have to have a wheelchair converted vehicle.......and of course we have to fuel it with no help for the 'extra' such a beastie guzzles (motability is gobbled up by their share of the lease costs) .

My point being that some folk (both able bodied and disabled ) need specific vehicles for their lives to function.

Govt. still does not seem to fully grasp this sad fact of life. :blink:

Quite right GW, unfortunately the Govt have seized on the fact, that they can make extra kudos by disguising it as saving the planet. Those crazy politicians hey! Think we are bloody stupid!!!

[HighPressure]

Hi HP,

Hubby's been pondering the same - well a Discovery rather than RR.

There's little doubt I think that the government will continue to increase road tax on 4x4's and let's face it, economical to run is not something they're well known for. But...there are some fantastic bargains to be had right now. If you work out how much more you'll pay in tax, factor in the mpg extra costs, then weigh that up against how much cheaper they are to buy now, I think there's never been a better time to buy. There's also the option of getting a gas converted one.

When it comes to whether or not to buy from an eco friendly perspective, erm hard to justify 25mpg against something else doing 45mpg. How long will a Range Rover or Landrover last though? A damn sight longer than most small, eco friendly cars I expect so in the long run, the total carbon cost could well be smaller.

Hi Jethro

I like the RR Sport but even in a recession they are still a bit pricey, the Galaxy TDi I have does @40mpg but it a piece of rubbish. All I want is something built properly and made to last and the fact is these are all big engined vehicles no one makes a quality small car.

Our Government has to make up its mind as to whether it wants to keep companies such as Land Rover afloat which means encouraging us to buy them or not? You can't go saying these things are bad lets tax them to the hilt in the name of the environment then go bleating if we don't because we have stopped buying them.

There is actually a big clue here about government policy and its simply they want me to buy one and pay through the roof in green taxes for it. That tells you exactly how serious they really are about reducing emissions. Whether its Land Rover or Airport expansion all they are actually creating is a self fulfilling merry Go round where subsidy follows taxation.

[Gowon]

Im fed with politicians/ presidents, their excuse to tax the hell out of us and make you feel bad. How about the devastation the third world has suffered because of these people's greed.

[Thundery wintry showers]

I know its a bit of a subject change but think its relevant to this thread?

Should I go out and buy a Range Rover, I am seriously not sure what message our government is sending out here? Its a good example of where politics gets itself in a right mess with this issue they are actually telling me both and I am confused.

From an environmental perspective it's bad to buy a car that has very low fuel economy, simply because it means greater use per mile driven of a finite resource. So it depends on whether you can get a Range Rover that returns decent rates.

Actually, although the Government's emphasis is on encouraging people to drive cars with small engines, it's surprising how many of the more modest "performance" cars are relatively low on fuel consumption. For instance the diesel Honda Civic is quite fast/sporty but also has high returns per gallon.

My view has long been that taxes should be focused on fuel consumption, rather than road pricing or road tax (though I can see a case for city centre congestion charges in gridlocked areas, or French-style toll roads where much of the money goes towards maintenance & improving public transport). The problem with penalising ownership of high pollution vehicles is that it is unfair on those who rarely use them and therefore use up less petrol than people who drive relatively economical vehicles regularly. If high fuel taxes are a problem for people living in remote areas, then as per one of Crimsone's suggestions in another thread, perhaps those who are classified as living in remote areas could be subjected to a fuel tax discount.

Greed is a problem across the world, sadly. Too many people and organisations care only about themselves, and perhaps their families, and don't think of the wider consequences of their actions. Governments, businesses, free-market capitalists, socialists, Fred Bloggs in the street, you name it- are all subsceptible to this.

[jonboy]

Unless we are to leave Luke stranded here we have to have a wheelchair converted vehicle.......and of course we have to fuel it with no help for the 'extra' such a beastie guzzles (motability is gobbled up by their share of the lease costs) .

My point being that some folk (both able bodied and disabled ) need specific vehicles for their lives to function.

Govt. still does not seem to fully grasp this sad fact of life. :blink:

Couldn't agree more. Our Beth who's 14 has just taken delivery of her new super dooper powered wheelchair. When we changed our motobility vehicle late last year we had to go for a converted Van as it was the only type that we could get a sensible ramp into it. it still cost us £2500 and we don't get carpets or proper seats in the back, the most basic driving and front passenger seats etc and the associated poor mileage. For families with disabled children we have enough extra costs without the added burden of extra fuel costs because we can't buy suitable fuel effiecent vehicles. This may seem callous but it is a real shame that both Brown and Cameron lost their children so young because if they had survived to adulthood goverment may at last have appreciated the difficulties faced by many families

[7andY]

I still can't see the problem with scrapping Vehicle Tax altogether, and putting it all on fuel. More fuel you use, more road you use, more tax you pay.

Seems simple to me.

[HighPressure]

Car companies should be taxed at source for their fuel efficiency and emissions, we would then see them tumble. I see no reason why say Rolls Royce should get away with 7ltr cars and 400 g/km with impunity just because their customers can afford it?

[noggin]

Im fed with politicians/ presidents, their excuse to tax the hell out of us and make you feel bad. How about the devastation the third world has suffered because of these people's greed.

Hi, Higrade and welcome to the pleasuredome.

Anyway......just a quickie as I'm off to work shortly...........I understand that there have been food shortages (starvation? ) in some parts of the world, due to the growing of crops for fuel instead of for food.

It ain't right, it just ain't right. Is the loony fringe so blinkered that they cannot see what they are doing? We need alternative fuels, but it cannot be at the cost of peoples' lives.

Have to go now.

[Thundery wintry showers]

Car companies should be taxed at source for their fuel efficiency and emissions, we would then see them tumble. I see no reason why say Rolls Royce should get away with 7ltr cars and 400 g/km with impunity just because their customers can afford it?

An interesting idea, and one definitely worth investigating. I'm guessing the government doesn't like doing that sort of thing because of the short-termist perspective of impacts on the economy, but it makes a lot of sense in the long run.

[Methuselah]

I still can't see the problem with scrapping Vehicle Tax altogether, and putting it all on fuel. More fuel you use, more road you use, more tax you pay.

Seems simple to me.

I've been saying that for years...Everyone thinks I'm mad!

I say that they put insurance costs onto fuel too. Tax and insurance evasion stopped dead?

PS: Or, is tax-evation one of our 'Human Right's'? I can't see Liberty being in favour of such a move!

Edited March 6, 2009 by Pete Tattum

[Gowon]

I still can't see the problem with scrapping Vehicle Tax altogether, and putting it all on fuel. More fuel you use, more road you use, more tax you pay.

Seems simple to me.

Try telling those who earn money from driving jobs so they can feed their children.

[LadyPakal]

Legitimate business expenses are tax deductable - and fuel costs would be met by the company that employs the drivers anyway.

I agree with scrapping road tax and adding it to fuel tax. Have thought that for years.

[jethro]

A couple of articles...

This one made me smile:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story....1343246&p=1

This one, well what can I say? Sticks and stones.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog...-denier-sceptic

[Gowon]

A couple of articles...

This one made me smile:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story....1343246&p=1

This one, well what can I say? Sticks and stones.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog...-denier-sceptic

First one is funny.

More like the not very gullible crew for the second one. B)