United Nations Climate Change Copenhagen

[Devonian]

I find the whole affair a huge oxymoron based on disinegenuity.

If we start of with the fundamental change that must happen: we must help out the under-developing world. The what? I thought development was bad, so why are we trying to de-develop our world, and develop others. It's socialism at it's 'best' take everything to the arithmetic mean so that some bureaucrat can consider it 'fair' and 'equitable'

Is this the 'you want to send us back to the stone' in disguise? But, don't we spend billions on 'third world' aid? Also, is there any sign that (given the trillions pumped into the world economy) that Govts (pluaral, all of them) are against growth? I can't see any evidence.

Are all human beings equal? Patently, no, we are not. I can't run the 100m in less than 10 seconds, and given my propensity to smoke and drink, it is highly unlikely that I will ever be able to. So, to make things 'fair' and 'equitable' we must now weight down those fast runners with lead weights so that I may be able to compete in the Olympics.{

Otoh, VP, you would expect to be treated fairly and equitably by the law? Or by a company you trade with? I agree human beings aren't equal in terms of height, or weight or girth, and can't be equal by those measure without 'force', but I think we can strive for equality of treament by others of us though law. No?

Of course, human life is another thing altogether. But, let's face it, if we can't cancel third-world debt what is, if you are really open and honest to yourself, the chances of creating some huge fund to combat something that is yet to occur (worst scale predictions 6C, currently less than 1C warming)

There should be NO Copenhagen conference; but there should be a conference on giving developing countries a fighting chance, by not ripping them off through trade, interest payments, and all of the other things left over from a colonial Europe (and now a colonial USA) They can invest in their own science programs, they can invest in their own sea defenses etc etc then.

But, of course, those that argue against this view, must, necessarily think that by giving an opportunity to these third world countries they will be unable to rise and join humanity on the pinnacle of zillions of years of evolution. And, of course, those that know best must rise up and save us all from ourselves.

And then like a forest, all trees will be kept equal .... by hatchet, axe, and saw.

The thing is all the environmentalist orgs, ngos, groups are in favour of what you want - to give the 'third world' a fair chance - and concerned about you know what.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Devonian

[noggin]

It seems to me that if AGW meant lower taxes several people her would cease to be AGW sceptics

Of course the truth is whether science is right or wrong is nothing to do with tax, tax is being used as a red herring.

I trust that you do not include me in "several people", Dev. Whilst I cannot afford to pay more tax, there are quite a few more aspects to my dis-ease with the perpetuation of the AGW/CC business than just the financial aspect. It is in my pocket, though, that the greatest pain will be felt, if taxes are to rise. Things are very tight here.

Might have known I could rely on you to provide a trite response though.

Quite interesting though, on further consideration, that you comment that sceptics might cease to be sceptical if it meant lower taxes. In the past, it has been said (not by you, I hasten to add)that sceptics are sceptical because they prefer cold weather to hot weather.

I can only infer, then, that as a sceptic, I am a tight-fisted, money-grubbing cold-lover.

Not too far from the truth, actually. :lol:

But it is coincidental.

[Devonian]

I trust that you do not include me in "several people", Dev. Whilst I cannot afford to pay more tax, there are quite a few more aspects to my dis-ease with the perpetuation of the AGW/CC business than just the financial aspect. It is in my pocket, though, that the greatest pain will be felt, if taxes are to rise. Things are very tight here.

We share that much in common.

Might have known I could rely on you to provide a trite response though.

And you a little dig at me?

Quite interesting though, on further consideration, that you comment that sceptics might cease to be sceptical if it meant lower taxes. In the past, it has been said (not by you, I hasten to add)that sceptics are sceptical because they prefer cold weather to hot weather.

I can only infer, then, that as a sceptic, I am a tight-fisted, money-grubbing cold-lover.

Not too far from the truth, actually.

But it is coincidental. :lol:

I used to love cold weather, a regular snow nut indeed, but less so now as I begin to be feel the cold a bit more.

[laserguy]

And then like a forest, all trees will be kept equal .... by hatchet, axe, and saw.

Hey VP,completely OT but an opportunity for a little relief - did you lift that line from this ?

True visionaries - how could they have foreseen 'Copenhagen' way back in the 70's,and at the height of the next ice-age scare,at that?! A great tune from the finest rock band ever,too!

[Gray-Wolf]

You lid wearin' hippy!!!!

Always enjoyed a good Rush............

Nowt will happen as a consequence of Copenhagen.

Midnight oils will be burnt, agreements will finally be thrashed out but nothing will change .......until it has too.

This will probably please the folk who do not feel that humanity has had the capacity to alter global climate.Once it is seen to be happening ,beyond all reasonable doubt, then they will happily consent to having their skins saved (I believe).

Sadly ,by that point, it will be too late for many millions across the globe and ,soon after that ,for the rest of us.

Change is inevitable, it has ,does, and will always occur.

Just not at the pace we have driven it.

[laserguy]

You lid wearin' hippy!!!!

Ye that's me,or would be if me mobike wasn't still busted! Still saving up the pennies after all this time but there's always something more important (eh??) that crops up family-wise. And everyone thinks I'm a loaded denier! Dunno what,if anything will be 'achieved' at Copenhagen,but you can rest assured it won't be un the interests of influencing the climate of the planet,GW!

[Gray-Wolf]

Ye that's me,or would be if me mobike wasn't still busted! Still saving up the pennies after all this time but there's always something more important (eh??) that crops up family-wise. And everyone thinks I'm a loaded denier! Dunno what,if anything will be 'achieved' at Copenhagen,but you can rest assured it won't be un the interests of influencing the climate of the planet,GW!

Sorry to hear of your bike woes.....family just don't understand what it means to be robbed of your wheels....esp. if a C.O.D. part would have you back in the saddle after a couple of late nights fighting with it whilst fitting it!!!

I think we appear to agree that the meet is a waste of time and (our) money.

[VillagePlank]

Hey VP,completely OT but an opportunity for a little relief - did you lift that line from this ?

True visionaries - how could they have foreseen 'Copenhagen' way back in the 70's,and at the height of the next ice-age scare,at that?! A great tune from the finest rock band ever,too!

Certainly did And the line about "those who know what's best for us must rise and save us up from ourselves" ... same band, check out Moving Pictures\Witchhunt.

... and Red Barchetta is a song about the eventually banning of carbon based cars, and that driving one becoming a guilty secret in the not too distant future.

[VillagePlank]

Is this the 'you want to send us back to the stone' in disguise? But, don't we spend billions on 'third world' aid? Also, is there any sign that (given the trillions pumped into the world economy) that Govts (pluaral, all of them) are against growth? I can't see any evidence.

Well, according to here the scale of third world debt is a $trillion. You want to sod around tweaking this and tweaking that (when I say you I am treated you as a representative of the far-left green movement, here - so apologies if that is inaccurate) by sorting out the speck of dust in others eyes, and, yet, the plank in our eyes, the elephant in the room, is $523b debt burden left to repay at the rate of $13 to $1 with $550b already paid.

So, tell me, please, what;s the odd ten's of billions actually going to achieve? Give the third world the opportunity to find it's own path by cancelling the loans - forget Copenhagen.

Otoh, VP, you would expect to be treated fairly and equitably by the law? Or by a company you trade with? I agree human beings aren't equal in terms of height, or weight or girth, and can't be equal by those measure without 'force', but I think we can strive for equality of treament by others of us though law. No?

What's the law got to do with it? Law is an arbitrary means of controlling society. People are not treated fairly and equitably by the law.

The thing is all the environmentalist orgs, ngos, groups are in favour of what you want - to give the 'third world' a fair chance - and concerned about you know what.

But all these people have taken their eye off the elephant in the room - third-world debt. Why isn't it reported? All those lobby groups in the Westminster village and to what effect? Trying to build a consensus for high tax/socialist policies - which, as history has taught us - will bring a country to it's knees, and then we'll have no option but to up the interest rate to third world countries.

Edited November 30, 2009 by VillagePlank

[noggin]

....and with just 7 days to go until lift-off, here is what the MetO think about it all

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2009/pr20091124a.html

I have tried desperately to fathom out from whence they are coming but have failed miserably.

So, I will leave it here in case anyone wants to read it and if anyone can fathom it out, please enlighten me.

Thank you so much, in anticipation.

P.S. Here is a taster....

"Year-on-year, the evidence is growing that damaging climate and weather events - potentially intensified by global warming - are already happening and begining to affect society and ecosystems."

.....and another.....

"This year's unusually destructive typhoon season in SouthEast Asia, while not easy to attribute directly to climate change, illustrates the vulnerabilities to such events."

The opening section of the release seems to confirm that dangerous climate change is here, is proven and is getting worse.

Yet further on, as in the 2 sentences that I have quoted (there were more, but hey ho), there seems to be a lot of dithering about, see those bits which I have emboldened.

I can't fathom it out.

Maybe it's just me...........

[Methuselah]

I don't think I'll comment just yet, Val... I think I will leave it until after a few extra hundred jet-airliners have needlessly circumnavigated the globe...

[Solar Cycles]

....and with just 7 days to go until lift-off, here is what the MetO think about it all

http://www.metoffice...r20091124a.html

I have tried desperately to fathom out from whence they are coming but have failed miserably.

So, I will leave it here in case anyone wants to read it and if anyone can fathom it out, please enlighten me.

Thank you so much, in anticipation.

P.S. Here is a taster....

"Year-on-year, the evidence is growing that damaging climate and weather events - potentially intensified by global warming - are already happening and begining to affect society and ecosystems."

.....and another.....

"This year's unusually destructive typhoon season in SouthEast Asia, while not easy to attribute directly to climate change, illustrates the vulnerabilities to such events."

The opening section of the release seems to confirm that dangerous climate change is here, is proven and is getting worse.

Yet further on, as in the 2 sentences that I have quoted (there were more, but hey ho), there seems to be a lot of dithering about, see those bits which I have emboldened.

I can't fathom it out.

Maybe it's just me...........

Aye, the old bull $*** meter will be going into overdrive, within the next 7 days! Time to avoid all media outlets for one week me thinks!

Edited November 30, 2009 by Solar Cycles

[Dartmoor_Matt]

Should we ground all flights?

(the answer of course is no)

[VillagePlank]

Should we ground all flights?

(the answer of course is no)

Or put all ships to port? link

[Dartmoor_Matt]

Or put all ships to port? link

Yes, I saw that. Again, I'd wager the answer should be no. Major economic loss for minor environmental gain seems a bit offhand to me

[stewfox]

Aye, the old bull $*** meter will be going into overdrive, within the next 7 days! Time to avoid all media outlets for one week me thinks!

If it wasn't a serious issue it would be funny

I like this one

--------------------------

Increased risk of summer heatwaves such as the summer of 2003 across the UK and Europe

---------------

Nick Cleg of Lib Dem party was on radio 4 today going on about increasing flight taxes he of course calls it a Green Tax.

Its nice to call things people don't like Green taxes.

He going to Tax houses at a higher band above £1m as well but then realised a lot of Libs live in houses above £1m so decided £2m (That where the Tories start)

How do you do the spin now on Green taxes ?.

Ps Respect to John Kettley comments in the Daly Mail on Sunday, if we start getting a reasoned balanced debate all well and good

[noggin]

6 days to go and here is what India thinks about it all.....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/Copenhagen-conference-India-China-plan-joint-exit/articleshow/5279771.cms

....and China and Brazil and South Africa.

It's going to be fun and games, innit!

[jethro]

No surprise there then. Personally can't see anything being agreed upon at Copenhagen, except possibly to repeat the whole process over and over again. If anything is agreed, can anyone really see nations sticking to it? Kyoto has hardly been the model of success.

[Gray-Wolf]

No surprise there then. Personally can't see anything being agreed upon at Copenhagen, except possibly to repeat the whole process over and over again. If anything is agreed, can anyone really see nations sticking to it? Kyoto has hardly been the model of success.

Exactly.

We get all heated here on the 'is it ,isn't it' debate and ,should we be given enough proof that 'it is' for all to accept, the Govt.s of our world would make some public grandiose noises and nowt would then happen (apart from endless photo op's and back slapping).

Think global ,act local.

No point in ever thinking those we empower to look after the 'bigger matters' will ever do anything that costs money/raises taxes/makes them unpopular at the polls.......why do we bother????

[Admiral_Bobski]

Exactly.

We get all heated here on the 'is it ,isn't it' debate and ,should we be given enough proof that 'it is' for all to accept, the Govt.s of our world would make some public grandiose noises and nowt would then happen (apart from endless photo op's and back slapping).

Think global ,act local.

No point in ever thinking those we empower to look after the 'bigger matters' will ever do anything that costs money/raises taxes/makes them unpopular at the polls.......why do we bother????

Well, if that's the case then perhaps we should tell the government where to stick their taxes and instead go and buy ourselves some sunloungers and sandbags...

CB

[Chris Knight]

Or we could move to Australia:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/01/climate-change-climate-change-scepticism

[Mark Bayley]

Or we could move to Australia:

http://www.guardian....ange-scepticism

I really don't like the term deniers

I'm meant to be following this event as part of my Geography A level studies, so shall be interesting to see what happens at copenhagen. No doubt nothing will be agreed upon.

Edited December 1, 2009 by mark bayley

[noggin]

5 days to go.

I have deleted the rest of this post as I have sort of duplicated something else.

Edited December 2, 2009 by noggin

[Pennine Ten Foot Drifts]

It's OK, we've been saved from the commie conspiracy....................

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/143573

[Methuselah]

It's OK, we've been saved from the commie conspiracy....................

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/143573

Just the usual pile of unsubstantiated conspiracy-theorist nonsense...