In The News

[Gray-Wolf]

To true BFTV! The Acidification now occuring in the Bering straights is one such event with most benthonic life form depending on artagonite deposition now struggling with the 'new' acidity. I'm sure some jolly jape will tell us it's all happened before and that we have no record cause it all dissolved!!!

[knocker]

There was a paper recently that touches on this subject.

Blue marlin blues: Loss of dissolved oxygen in oceans squeezes billfish habitat

Study focuses on oxygen minimum zones in NE Atlantic and effects on pelagic species

MIAMI—December 14, 2011 – The science behind counting fish in the ocean to measure their abundance has never been simple. A new scientific paper in Nature Climate Change shows that expanding 'ocean dead zones' (areas of low oxygen) driven in part by climate change makes that science even more complex.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-12/uomr-bmb121411.php

[Gray-Wolf]

Village may well see this all as 'What Nature Does' but I do not! Even our Hedgehog is challenged by 'Human' tastes in development and social spaces! Never mind ,it can just evolve...........yeah ,right!

[pottyprof]

it's all happened before and we have no record cause it all dissolved!!!

See... even you agree....

In all seriousness though, yes it is sad to see these things but how acidic is acidic? Where has the acid come from? Is it carbonic or sulphuric? Is it a mixture of several? Is it man made or is it natural? Is it a recent occurrence or a long standing issue?

I'm all for cleaning up our back yard but when governments have meetings that have a carbon footprint as big as Richard Branson's then you're left banging you head against a brick wall.........

[knocker]

See... even you agree....

In all seriousness though, yes it is sad to see these things but how acidic is acidic? Where has the acid come from? Is it carbonic or sulphuric? Is it a mixture of several? Is it man made or is it natural? Is it a recent occurrence or a long standing issue?

It's very stable in the oceans around 8PH. The carbonate cycle. Carbonic. Normally natural but recently of course man made. The increase is fairly recent and due I suspect to the rising man made atmospheric CO2 levels.

A couple of papers written on the subject.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-11/uoc-ogm112408.php

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-08/nocs-loa082010.php

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-03/uoia-rog030807.php

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-05/esf-esc051810.php

[pottyprof]

Many thanks for the links WS. Looks to me like it's an element of climate study that's yet to produce any major conclusions but I agree with the increasing CO² being the likely cause. I think that with anything to do with the oceans is going to take a long time to produce valuable data but if it is something storing up trouble for us, it's already too late to try to correct in the medium term.

[knocker]

I fear you are correct PP. If I dare use the term I think we are passed the tipping point and there is no reverse gear.

[Village]

Village may well see this all as 'What Nature Does' but I do not! Even our Hedgehog is challenged by 'Human' tastes in development and social spaces! Never mind ,it can just evolve...........yeah ,right!

I think you are misquoting me. What you dont seem to understand is that you are nature and you do affect everything around you ...so unless you want to slash your wrists; then please stop appologising for your actions and making everyone else suffer your guilt.

Firstly, the rate of climate change is absolutely within the bounds of what has always been experienced and further you dont have a shred of conclusive evidence that the current changes are driven by man in the first place.

Secondly if you dont know that every living thing on this planet changes the environment then your need to distinguish anything mankind changes as un-natural is understandable. But your perspective is distorted.

Why are you not complaining about the billions of wild herbivore running wild in Africa which have destroyed millions of square miles of forest and turned summers into a dry arid dust bowl for everything else?

Edited December 16, 2011 by Village

[John S2]

the rate of climate change is absolutely within the bounds of what has always been experienced and further you dont have a shred of conclusive evidence that the current changes are driven by man in the first place.

This article in Nature reports that at least 74% of recent warming is caused by man rather than natural factors

http://www.nature.com/news/three-quarters-of-climate-change-is-man-made-1.9538

[Gowon]

This article in Nature reports that at least 74% of recent warming is caused by man rather than natural factors

http://www.nature.co...man-made-1.9538

Natural climate variability is extremely unlikely to have contributed more than about one-quarter of the temperature rise observed in the past 60 years, reports a pair of Swiss climate modellers in a paper published online today. Most of the observed warming — at least 74 % — is almost certainly due to human activity, they write in Nature Geoscience¹.

Not a definite then?

[PeteG]

Why are you not complaining about the billions of wild herbivore running wild in Africa which have destroyed millions of square miles of forest and turned summers into a dry arid dust bowl for everything else?

Actually I think you'll find the millions of herbivores in Africa are the result of the climate changing and large areas of grassland replacing forests and allowing the herbivore population to increase.

[Methuselah]

Actually I think you'll find the millions of herbivores in Africa are the result of the climate changing and large areas of grassland replacing forests and allowing the herbivore population to increase.

You're most definitely right there, PeteG...

It was great right up to the last program when the BBC yet again couldnt contain themselves and sold us the same old bias claptrap about man made climate change. Nothing new...no new evidence, nothing conclusive, just the same old hypothetical hunch from Attenborough who completely contradicts his lifetime's message about species by making the statement.

Rubbish!

Put quite simply Village, nature cannot adapt as fast as we have driven climate changes in areas of the planet. We hear tales of being on the brink of the 4th great extinction event. This is not nature 'adapting' this is nature failing to adapt and loosing many species by this 'failure'.

The 'diversity' of the Planet is Attenboroughs delight, it is this Diversity that is now threatened esp. if we face 'Abrupt Climate Change' ,due to the submerged permafrost deposits loosing it CH4, then this process will accelerate this loss of diversity.

Absolutely right, GW! And would you want to take your video camera into a polar bears' den? Did anyone really ever believe that all those bits of inside-lair documentary film-footage were entirely real?

Heaven knows how daft some folks are!

[Gray-Wolf]

I think WWF would have issues at anyone disturbing a protected/endagered species during breeding??? Sadly it appears this is what some folk would expect??? Talk about a "pound of flesh"...LOL

To think that they went to such pains to show us how they made most all of the amazing footage as that which we have been treated to over the years of Attenborough progs only to have a small number of folk make a beef about similar now? These folk should gen up on the methane hydrate issue across the Siberian shelf sea and cry that down instead. At least that will make some folk feel more secure about their futures!

[songster]

To think that they went to such pains to show us how they made most all of the amazing footage as that which we have been treated to over the years of Attenborough progs only to have a small number of folk make a beef about similar now?

On the website they had "making of" segments for pretty much the lot - including the footage from zoos. As far as grand cover-up conspiracies go, posting a public documentary doesn't seem particularly, um, covert?

[knocker]

Many thanks for the links WS. Looks to me like it's an element of climate study that's yet to produce any major conclusions but I agree with the increasing CO² being the likely cause. I think that with anything to do with the oceans is going to take a long time to produce valuable data but if it is something storing up trouble for us, it's already too late to try to correct in the medium term.

A new paper on the subject.

Comprehensive Study Makes Key Findings of Ocean pH Variations

Some organisms already experiencing ocean acidification levels not predicted to be reached until 2100

Scripps Institution of Oceanography / University of California, San Diego

A group of 19 scientists from five research organizations have conducted the broadest field study of ocean acidification to date using sensors developed at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, UC San Diego.

The study, "High-Frequency Dynamics of Ocean pH: A Multi-Ecosystem Comparison," is reported in today's issue of the journal PLoS One. It is an important step toward understanding how specific ecosystems are responding to the change in seawater chemistry that is being caused as the oceans take up extra carbon dioxide produced by human greenhouse gas emissions, said its authors.

"These data represent a critical step in understanding the consequences of ocean change: the linkage of present-day pH exposures to organismal tolerance and how this translates into ecological change in marine ecosystems," the authors wrote. "These pH time series create a compelling argument for the collection of more continuous data of this kind."

http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/Releases/?releaseID=1234&pass=340456

[Village]

Put quite simply Village, nature cannot adapt as fast as we have driven climate changes in areas of the planet. We hear tales of being on the brink of the 4th great extinction event. This is not nature 'adapting' this is nature failing to adapt and loosing many species by this 'failure'. The 'diversity' of the Planet is Attenboroughs delight, it is this Diversity that is now threatened esp. if we face 'Abrupt Climate Change' ,due to the submerged permafrost deposits loosing it CH4, then this process will accelerate this loss of diversity.

What you say is purely a hypothesis that you have borrowed from somebody else. Where is your conclussive pr0of that mankind has driven rapid climate change to the brink as you purport? If you think you have found something then lets hear it because the scientific community have no conclussive proof to conclude what you do. If you take the time to check the temperature data and ice core evidence then you will note that none of the data supports the hypothetical guesswork which you state we are seeing and or any rappid climate change. Its quite the opposite...the data clearly demonstrates that for hundreds of years we have been living and still live in very subdued climate change times where very small changes are taking place. These changes are well within the natural variation. So bearing this in mind and looking to the future; are you again guessing that Man is going to bring about abrupt climate change as you predict or can you bring conclussive evidence to also back up these claims of yours too? Lets hear it...not guesswork please. Edited December 24, 2011 by Village

[Gray-Wolf]

Theres no playing that ball Village (as I'm sure you know full well)!

This type of cry for something that is impossible is why we find ourself where we are today with regards to the 'public perception' of AGW.

Only History will report events with such levels of certainty and , in a real world, we have to take our 'best shot' at what our future will bring. Such decisions are taken by reviewing the data available and projecting forward.

We are warned by the scietists in the field that many creatures are ,and will, struggle to adapt to the current rate of climate shift. this is most notable in the critters being forced 'upslope' in mountainous tropical regions. We are also being advised that some trees are not adapting to the climate change too well either and may well die out in some regions.

Sadly we will have to wait until such changes unfold before we gain the evidence you demand before you will take the matter seriously.......sadly to preserve our diversity we would need to be acting now and not when the last critter of a species keels over.

[Village]

Wolf,

What you state as evidence is absolutely the way nature intended bacause at any given time throughout the ages some species are doing well and others are struggling. Its called nature and its this very slow change which tests all species. The idiots who simply note that a species of tree or a species of bird etc etc is having a hard time are simply observing nature at work. To then expand these common place, every day examples that can always be found the world over into some kind of proof that mankind will kill the whole planet and himself is quite frankly ridiculous.

These idiots who make these claims will stop at nothing to make the world a sanitised, never changing cuddly environment where everything and every species is kept fulfilled, happy, safe and alive. Then a few hundred years later this whole artificially created ecosystem proped up by friendly man will totally collapse because its not prepared or strong enough to withstand real shocks and real natural dissasters. The proses of death and the process of suffering is good for all species and it is absolutely necessary for the health and vitallity of ecosystems. It is NOT a bad thing just because somebody told you so.

The penny may finally drop with you one day and with these other so called experts who understand nothing.

If you become ill one day and have the time to think properly for yourself about why it is that your antibiotics have stopped working and your immune system is not strong enough to withstand simple bacteria you may just realise how you have been mislead. You have probably already weakened yourself to the point that you cant take a cold shower outside when its near freezing point and you probably cant sleep if you dont have central heating. In doing so you are doing yourself and our future generations a dreadful diservice just so that you can have an easy time of it.

These are all clear signs to anybody who knows even very basic levels about the natural world and the environment that man's deliberate attempts to make life easier, cuddly and cosy go against how nature works.

Every religion in the world preaches that going without and hardship is a natural process and is encouraged because it's a good thing for all life. Its not bad, its not evil man at work because somebody said so.

The truth is that you dont even believe in what you say. If you did you wouldnt be burning fossil fuels ...but you do, dont you? and that means that you dont care or believe what you say. When you have stopped burning fossil fuels, then come back to me and I will believe that you believe in what you are talking about.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Village

[VillagePlank]

These changes are well within the natural variation.

Natural variation might be considered to be two standard deviations (ie approximately 1,96) - I think if you look at the extent data, I think you'll find that, for a lot of the time, the levels are outside the +/- 2sd line.

[laserguy]

What you state as evidence is absolutely the way nature intended..........When you have stopped burning fossil fuels, then come back to me and I will believe that you believe in what you are talking about.

Too right,all these crazed AGW types and their "holier than thou" stance really make me sick - as if anyone could do anything anyway to alter the climate of a planet for better or worse by tinkering with our collective,puny outputs of an ineffectual trace gas. They're mad and have totally lost it,let alone their display of vulgar hypocrisy. I'd wish y'all a merry Xmas an all that but these creatures would probably have it banned for any number of whacky reasons so long as theirs went unaffected.

[Gray-Wolf]

Too right,all these crazed AGW types and their "holier than thou" stance really make me sick - as if anyone could do anything anyway to alter the climate of a planet for better or worse by tinkering with our collective,puny outputs of an ineffectual trace gas. They're mad and have totally lost it,let alone their display of vulgar hypocrisy. I'd wish y'all a merry Xmas an all that but these creatures would probably have it banned for any number of whacky reasons so long as theirs went unaffected.

Hmmm? Our "collective puny outputs" are not the only things we "crazed AGW types" bang on about now is it? Our "Puny efforts" in the South American rain forrests do not only seem to impact 'Frogs' but also the Apex predators down there (of course our "Puny efforts" at chopping down trees cannot surely have any wider impacts? I mean "Puny" us???)

Trace Gasess and humans not being an issue? We'll take a holiday in the South American Spring and keep your shirt off (or Oz if the holes big enough?)

Nearly had our own Ozone hole this year (2011), missed it by a whisker, I rekon ours will be driven by Methane Emmissions from the Hydrates we have destabilised.......oh! . Hold on, not guilty M'Lud......our "Puny efforts" mean for nought.

Plastic rafting in the middle of the Pacific Gyre? Sounds fun! How big is that Island of Junk now? How many Leatherbacks did it claim as it migrated there??? Nope, "puny us" couldn't have done that!!! Passing space alien emptied the 'ashtray' as they passed as it could not possibly be our fault.

Salt panning under the Great Plains? nowt to do with our watering M'lud, God's work.....He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt so he has a history of such....maybe killing of the prairies part of his great plan?

Melting permafrost? Nah! just a natural cycle! We just were'nt into collecting the ivory from Mammoths and Wooly Rhino's when we were hunting the Elephants/Rhino's to extinction......I mean thinning there numbers to strengthen the herds.....so we wouldn't have noticed them plopping out of the river banks last time.....we indiginous folk (in a Soviet state) would have just imported Ivory from Africa like everyone else to make our houshold items/art with (obviously). As for having to chop the knackers off our Riendeer these days so they can become fat enough to 'hoof' the glaze (from the freezing rains we now get instead of soft snow) of the lichen? well our ancesters must have neutered their Reindeer as well (which is why we still have Reindeer today???) Ancestoral watering holes seeping away? I'm sure our Ancestors meant to tell us that this occured from time to time but forgot....busy heads eh?

And the Alaskan Sea cliffs now dissappearing at a frightening rate? Just 'weather' We were obviously 'blessed' with a 'cold spell in the 40's when these towns were first put up and now ,due to the 'swings and roundabouts' of weather our homes have fallen into the sea over the last 15yrs with last year being the worst yet with 'twice' the amount of land given back to the sea.

Mountain Gorillas? Nah! , not us, they, err...decided that they had better just go extinct? (I blame that Crazy MoFo Attenborough and his left wing commie,treehugging trash showing them the Panda's fate [not by man , not by man] so they wanted to join in.....)

The sooner we accept the N.R.A.'s kind offer to arm all who wish to be the better (I'm sure this lovely Govt. would do that for us????)

Edited December 24, 2011 by Gray-Wolf

[knocker]

Not forgeting altering the chemistry of the oceans plus my last post in the Antarctic thread.

[laserguy]

You're all crazed,and unless you're broadcasting from a solar-powered papier mache PC (made from recycled toilet rolls,natch) which is gathering energy thru' the chink in the roof of the cave you're all residing in,you're all hypocrites. Now clear off and leave us be.

[knocker]

Who exactly is us? I assume you have stopped taking your meds again.

[Village]

Actually I think you'll find the millions of herbivores in Africa are the result of the climate changing and large areas of grassland replacing forests and allowing the herbivore population to increase.

Wrong, the whole area would be dense shrubland and forrested in places. The climate would also be marginally cooler at the surface, more moister would be available and there would be eversoslightly more precip as a result of increased evapotranspiration on a grand scale. This is precisely because the work of the billions of herbivore give little to no hope to the re-seeding and new shoots of sapplings.

Idiot ideas that currently exist without question in some peoples minds that the actions of Man should be classified as unnatural are ridiculous and completely taken out of context. Until one understands that all life has an immediate and long term effect on everything then its pointless continuing with this.