firefly

Not uncommon at all. Last year it snowed on Ben Nevis on the 20th June, and on the Cairngorms around the 13th (if memory serves me correctly). 2007 it snowed in June, too. July snows are not unknown, though rare. August is the month when least snow falls, though it has happened on the highest hills. CMD, the hills "to the north and west" of Ben More, when viewed from the Port Glasgow-Langbank road, are the Ben Lui hills beside Tyndrum. I'm not sure how many of the hills are visible, but Ben Lui certainly is prominent. In fact, you can see it from the mate when passing Dumbarton rock, looking up the length of Loch Lomond. A good 35-37 mile line of sight.

Haha! No, upper Port Glasgow has better views than Greenock to Ben More. There's less high ground to interrupt the line of sight. Just as an addendum to my last post, the view of Ben More and Stob Binnein are blocked from Glasgow by the Campsie Fells, but once you are on the other side of them (looking across Flanders Moss), they become very visible. If you know what you are looking at, this photograph shows the Campsies in the distance (to the left of Stob Binnein), with the knobbly peak of Dumgoyne visible on their right hand extremity. This is the range that blocks the direct line of sight.

Hi, CMD. I see you're from Kilmacolm. I was brought up in Port Glasgow, though I now live in Chelmsford, Essex! The mountain to the south of Ben More is Stob Binnein (the anvil, so called because of its flat top). I was made aware of its still extant snow patches yesterday, though they're very small. Ben More and Stob Binnein are two of the most recognisable mountains in southern Scotland, by virtue of their great height and close proximity. By-the-way, here's a photograph of the patch from yesterday (thanks to Eddie Boyle), showing good depth and length. As for the general question about whether they're visible from the central belt (to non-Scots, the low-lying land around Glasgow and Edinburgh): yes and no (that is, it depends on where in the central belt you're viewing them from). If you come down to upper Port Glasgow from the Kilmalcolm road then they're very visible. You can see them (from memory) just as you pass Port Glasgow High School, immediately to the right of Ben Lomond. The lower down you get, the more they're obscured. I'm pretty sure they're not visible from Glasgow, unless you get up high onto Eaglesham Moor or similar. The further east you come towards Edinburgh, the less I'm sure. If we move farther north (Stirling area) then they become obscured from the road-side by other mountains (most notably, Ben Vorlich and Stuc a Chroin near Lochearnhead), which can be mistaken for Ben More and Stob Binnein, though they're further east (see this photograph, which I think was taken from the Kippen area, and note the 'pointy' similarity). I suspect the hills you are seeing from the central belt are Ben Vorlich and Stuc a Chroin, but are definitely Ben More and Stob Binnein when viewed from upper Port Glasgow, which is doubtless the view you are most familiar with. By-the-way, if you were going the scenic route home from Callander past Ben More then that's one heck of a diversion! That said, the drive from Callander up the side of Loch Lubnaig, with Ben Ledi to the left, then passing Lochearnhead and up into Glen Ogle, passing over the top with the stunning views over to Ben Lawers and the Tarmachan ridge, before striking along the A85 towards Crianlarich, is a memorable one, and I envy you!

Think ski-ing on fresh snow is over for the season? Think again! Once again, the redoubtable h11lly (and friends) from winterhighland made the trip up over Cairn Gorm yesterday (7th June) to build a kicker and get some turns in on fresh snow that has now been lying on the high Cairngorms for about 5 days. This is unusual for the time of year, as fresh snow can melt rapidly in June. The snow has now been lying for 5-days, and may have had an effect on the ptarmigan that are sitting on their eggs. Some may have abandoned the nests, but many of the hardier birds will sit tight, waiting for the thaw. The forecast is for cool, dry weather to continue late into the week, which is good for snow-patch retention. Minimal melt in the last week, after a few days of scorching weather. h11lly's outing can be found here: http://www.winterhighland.info/touring/index.php?50,1541

I can't upload the panorama photograph, but I'll keep trying...

The forecasted cold spell coming from the north has, as predicted, deposited some snow on the top of the Cairngorms (see attached). Not a huge amount, but the forecast is for more over the course of the next 24-hours, with the cold spell continuing for the next few days. Though this will, in all probability, make little material difference to the remaining old snow, the cool weather will stem the rapid melting of the snow that has occurred over the last week or so. Still massive wreaths in the Cairngorms, with Ben Macdui having a 'patch' about a mile long if taken tip-to-tip. The attached picture (from the 1st June) gives a big foreshortening effect, but allows an idea of what we have on Britain's snowiest mountain. The other attachment is from the top of Ben Macdui (3rd June) looking across the Lairig Ghru towards Cairn Toul and Braeriach, with Garbh Choire Mor (Britain's longest-lying snow) visible in the centre left (the biggest blob of snow!)

Sorry I haven't updated this thread for a while! So, where are we in terms of snow-patches? Firstly, the final snow in England (on Helvellyn) melted around the 15th May, for all those interested. Secondly, we're now into June and I was concerned that Scotland's most southerly snow-patch would be the Cuidhe Chrom on Ben More, Crianlarich (one of not many snow-patches in Scotland to have its own name on Ordnance Survey maps: see attached picture. Cuidhe Chrom means 'crooked wreath', which is very appropriate to the snow there). In 2008 at this time the most southerly snow in Scotland was on Beinn Ime, near Loch Lomond, but with less snow this year than last I was concerned that it wouldn't persist into June. To my surprise, the snow has persisted into June (just!), and is visible as a small patch on the right-hand mountain in this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57617244267543/ After this melts then the Cuidhe Chrom will take the position of Britain's most southerly snow-patch. However, unlike last year, it is very unlikely to last into July. I visited it last year on the 30th June and it was still over 100m long. If it's still there on the 30th this year then it will have done well! After this melts then the Cuidhe Chrom will take the position of Britain's most southerly snow-patch. However, unlike last year, it is very unlikely to last into July. I visited it last year on the 30th June and it was still over 100m long. If it's still there on the 30th this year then it will have done well!

Sorry, been away on holiday for over a week and couldn't update this thread. Anyway, here we go... I believe that there is still snow on Skye, but am not sure about Mull. I suspect not. Contrary to the earlier assertion of Cross Fell on the Pennines disappearing in the first week in May, it actually vanished on the 13th. I have a reliable contact who informed me of this. The only remaining snow now in England (this is 99% definite) is on Helvellyn, if it hasn't already melted. The picture below shows it on the 10th May, and my guess is it's still there, though small. It was 10m wide and 1.5m deep in this photograph. We also think there are a couple of patches in the Southern Uplands (around Broad Law), but haven't been reported for a few days. Attached is a cracking picture of Ben Nevis taken on the 16th May (courtesy of Mike Pescod).

Well, the last snow on Cross Fell (Pennines) has now gone: probably early this week (Monday/Tuesday). The last known photograph (below, with dog!) was taken on the 2nd. In all probability, Helvellyn's snow has probably gone, too. This means that, very probably, Britain's most southerly snow-patch is now on Talla East Side (near Moffat - http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=31695...mp;mapp=map.srf), and photo below). However, this patch is very probably very small indeed by now, and only the relatively cool conditions just now will be slowing its demise. *EDIT* You'll have to zoom out 1 notch to see the map properly: don't ask me why!

Possible whiteout conditions over the hills on Thursday, with heavy snow showers forecast for the weekend: http://mwis.org.uk/mountain/WH.PDF

Fresh snow this morning on Aonach Mor and Cairn Gorm. Nothing major, but a sign that wintery conditions are not yet finished! As we say in Scotland, "Ne'er cast a cloot 'til May's oot".

Well, May is here - which means that it's time to chart how the snow is holding up on the hills of Scotland. However, before I do, I'd like to make a note that, as of the 1st of May, two hills in England are still holding snow: Cross Fell (Pennines) and Helvellyn. Here's a photograph from the 26th of Helvellyn showing a few bits 'n bobs left, and here's one of Cross Fell which was taken today (thanks to Paul Crabtree), showing two small patches. The smart money's on Helvellyn lasting longest, but I'd be surprised if it was still there by Wednesday next week. As for Scotland and where are we compared to the last couple of years... Pretty much the same as 2007, but far less coverage than 2008. There was very heavy snowfall this winter, but there have also been severe thaws, which have been a curse to the ski-ing centres. That said, because of the sheer volume of some of the snow, visitor numbers were actually up at Glenshee this year compared to last. There's not much point in talking about snow-patches at the moment due to the still very large quantity of snow present on the mountains. Realistically, how do you talk about patches when you've got this quantity of snow on Ben Nevis only a couple of weeks ago: I have also started an archive of photographs on my flickr site. Just to prove that all snow melting in Scotland isn't a recent phenomenon, here's a set from 1959 which shows all snow melted (by the 8th September) at Garbh Choire Mor. This was the last time this site was snow free until 1996 (37-years). Other reports/pictures will follow in due course, but in the meantime I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has. Oh, and if you're in the hills at all then don't forget to snap away and post the results up here! Cheers, Iain

Thanks, Yeti. I suspect those patches will now either be gone or will not be here by Monday. I’ve got a couple of people keeping an eye on Cross Fell, which I suspect will be the last in England (unless anyone knows differently).

Thanks, TM. Flattering! When you're passionate about something then it tends to come over well, particularly if you are OK with words, as I hope I am... Thanks, but I doubt you'll find any in May, let alone June. Looks like the only remaining snow in England is on Cross Fell (Pennines, see below) and a few patches dotted around the Lakes. Helvellyn will be gone, I suspect, by the start of May. If anyone's interested, there's a thread on southern Scotland/northern England here: http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,105332

All, I'll be starting a new 2009 thread on here soon, in case anyone's interested! Keep watching...

Lots of wind-blown snow at Ciste Mhearad in the Cairngorms. Courtesy of the SAIS website.

For those interested, I've written a Wiki entry on Scotland's snow-patches. Be sure to stay tuned for 2009's thread!

There's no concrete evidence of any glaciers in the Cairngorms for thousands of years. During the mini ice age (a few hundred years ago) it was postulated that Garbh Choire Mhor may have supported a small glacier, but this has never been satisfactorily established. Certainly Coire an t-Sneachda did not have a glacier in the 1960s! That's utter nonsense. Yes, it's likely the snow is 2-years old. I'm guessing December 2006-January 2007 when it fell. Amazing, really, given its altitude.

Yes, though remember that although the highest patch is at 3800ft, it's still 600ft below the summit of Ben Nevis, so it shares some characteristics of the others. The one patch this is different is Garbh Uisge Beag because it doesn't enjoy high cliffs behind it.

The general consensus is that (barring a thaw of biblical proportions) all "old" snow in the Cairngorms and Nevis area has a sufficient depth as to keep them safe for another year. So... this year's survivals are (you're getting this information 6-months before the Royal Meteorological Society are getting it!): (Name, mountain, grid reference and approximate height above sea-level) 1. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Sphinx" patch) NN940980 - ~3700ft 2. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Pinnacles" patch) N of NN940980 - ~3700ft 3. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Michaelmas Fare" patch) N of NN940979 - ~3680ft 4. Garbh Uisge Beag, Ben Macdui, NH994010 - ~3550ft 5. Gardyloo Gully, Ben Nevis, S of NN166714, ~3800ft 6. Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis, NN166714, ~3700ft 7. Point 5 Gully, Ben Nevis, E of NN166714, ~3600ft 8. Protalus, Aonach Mor, NN193736, ~3675ft 9. Queen's View, Aonach Beag, NN196716, ~3115ft Nothing really very spectacular this year. A couple of interesting points are that Garbh Uisge Beag made if for the first time in 5-years (only just, mind) and that Aonach Beag made it again. This surprises me given its altitude, which is lower than Scaffell in the Lake District. Quite probably, the snow you're looking at in this photograph fell in late 2006. Gardyloo Gully made it, but this patch isn't widely recorded so it's difficult to tell whether it's a regular or not. I'll keep an eye on that one in the coming season.

Thanks very much. I write about it because I enjoy the subject matter, and I know that people appreciate being told what's going on in those long-way-off Scottish mountains! I'm glad that there's been interest in this again, and I'll keep everyone up-to-date with the final figures when they're finalised. Cheers.

Sorry, been away for a few days and didn't see this... 1. Very probably. The Nevis patches (3-off) and protalus at Aonach Mor would have received a good top up during the last snow (here's a picture from the 2nd November which shows deep wreaths). With more snow forecast, it's looking good for these ones. The Aonach Beag one was never in doubt, and is (again) Scotland's largest (measuring 55m long on the 18th October). 2. Yes, though not by much. By the time the new snows arrive Garbh Uisge Beag patch was tiny (couple of metres at the most). The new snows (lasting) snows arrived just in the nick of time. The photographs at the bottom show the position of them before and after the new snows. Not at all. October snows are not unusual. In 1976 the lasting snows arrived in early September. This is exceptional, but lasting October snows are not uncommon. The depth of snow at Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach, and Observatory Gully on Ben Nevis can only be guessed at. Put it this way, I visited Observatory Gully on the 23th August and, after a long slog to get there, was confronted by a 30ft+ depth snow patch. You can see all the photographs from that trip here. Correct. 2003 & 2006 failed to produce any lasting patches. Very unusual to have 2 in such close proximity. To answer your last question: it's not really calculated like that. The only criterium is that snow survives: be it 1, 2 or 10-years old. It doesn't matter. In 1996, the snow at Garbh Choire Mhor was (I think) around 20-years old when it did go.

If it survives! I've attached a picture taken yesterday that shows GUBeag in its death throes. As for the point you make about "natural" patch: I'm not sure one can say that. Certainly it's more exposed to the elements than the other long-lying patches, having no large cliff face to shelter it. It certainly doesn't receive much in the way of avalanche debris either. All I'll say is that it is certainly a more naturally open snow patch then any other still extant.

Too early yet, I'm afraid. The snow that fell at Garbh Choire Mhor on the 1st October appears to be the lasting snow there, but not so for the other sites. The lasting snows didn't arrive until the 5th November last year in the Cairngorms, and a couple of weeks later for the west, so more thawing is possible. The next 36-hours should be very interesting, as 2 patches are tiny and may not last the weekend.

Thanks to coaster from Winterhighland (and here!) for a sterling effort in getting up to Observatory Gully yesterday in tricky conditions. Point 5 gully still hanging in there (amazingly), and the main Obs. Gully patch a fair size (16m x 15m). This makes the total number of extant patches at 9: 1) 3 at Garbh Choire Mhor on Braeriach 2) 1 at Garbh Usige Beag on Ben Macdui 3) 3 at Observatory Gully/Point 5 gully on Ben Nevis 4) 1 at Aonach Beag (the largest by far, despite its altitude of 3100ft) 5) 1 at protalus on Aonach Mor (this is tiny, and will vanish if there's much of a thaw) In my opinion (and this is just my opinion), 4 are certainties to survive, 2 are very probable, 2 are touch and go, with 1 being critical. If anyone has any specific queries on size etc then ask away!