Polar Ice sets new minimum

[biffvernon]

I'm no China expert but I think that maybe somewhat disingenuous. There does seem to be a great deal of environmental concern within the upper echelons of the Chinese government. They don't have an easy job.

[NorthernRab]

I'm no China expert but I think that maybe somewhat disingenuous. There does seem to be a great deal of environmental concern within the upper echelons of the Chinese government. They don't have an easy job.

Well to sum it up and put it in a nutshell: China does not have to meet any climate change agreements because it is currently facing it's industrial revolution; Germany, USA, Canada, Britain, Russia, Japan, France, Italy and Spain had their's, but were not forced to meet any emissions targets, so why should China, India and Brazil? Therefore, in the future when China has become a economically developed country, it will have to start taking steps to lowering emissions, that is if it is willing to. We all know that a dictatorship is very unlikely to want to do this, so as the public's desire for democratic change increases (as it will, the only reason the CPC are still in power at the moment is because the Chinese people want to better the economy, this will not be the case in the future), thus will the move towards a Greener China will emerge.

OK, that was a pretty big nutshell, I'll admit.

[PersianPaladin]

If we stopped buying so much mass-produced rubbish then the Chinese economy would be on its knees.

[HighPressure]

China is only manufacturing to demand most of it for the west (US) for people to sit in Europe or the US with the lets blame the Chinese argument is just plain arrogant. The global manufacturing base moves with economics it just happens to be with China at present but a hundred years ago it would of been with us, the issue is global not Chinese.

As for what we buy, we can only buy the products that are on the shelves and they are put there by retailers who like to make money and don't give a monkeys where it comes from. Do you think Argos cares that 90% of its stock is all made in China? I think not!

Edited April 6, 2008 by HighPressure

[SnowBear]

Problem is PP, the alternative is more expensive, in many cases much more expensive. Chinese/Taiwan/Indian products are not as bad as they used to be as they are taking more notice of their target countries product guidelines and safety margins and making the produce cheaper.

The way to reverse that is to make imports less attractive, raising import duty maybe but lowering taxes on home produce.

[Gray-Wolf]

Problem is PP, the alternative is more expensive, in many cases much more expensive. Chinese/Taiwan/Indian products are not as bad as they used to be as they are taking more notice of their target countries product guidelines and safety margins and making the produce cheaper.

The way to reverse that is to make imports less attractive, raising import duty maybe but lowering taxes on home produce.

Once the Chinese have the plans then the new technology will be mass produced and flood in in McDonalds happy meals........

[BLAST FROM THE PAST]

Well goods come at much cheaper prices than over here. My wife and her British/Chinese partner import from China and business is going well. They have a right to expand...oh and the world is cooling too presently

BFTP

[Mr Sleet]

If you have something similar or different please put it up with an explanation.

[Essan]

Perhaps you could explain the chart

You might like to include things like reduced solar radiance, snowball earth, mountain building, life, and continental plate configuration .....

For example, if the sun is 30% dimmer, the continents are positioned differently, there are no ice caps anywhere and there are no trees on the planet would we expect the relationship between CO2 and temp to be identical to today?

Anyway here's my chart:

Just coincidence?

[biffvernon]

The chart needs a label at the Permo-Triassic boundary: "95% of fossil forming life went extinct here. You have been warned!"

[Mr Sleet]

Perhaps you could explain the chart

You might like to include things like reduced solar radiance, snowball earth, mountain building, life, and continental plate configuration .....

For example, if the sun is 30% dimmer, the continents are positioned differently, there are no ice caps anywhere and there are no trees on the planet would we expect the relationship between CO2 and temp to be identical to today?

Anyway here's my chart:

Just coincidence?

I understand what you are saying Essan back to you.

With your chart it is the old chestnut , the CO2 rises after the temperature not the other way round.

I still say at the mo " no CO2 link" to climate change

The chart needs a label at the Permo-Triassic boundary: "95% of fossil forming life went extinct here. You have been warned!"

Very interesting BV, thanks.

More here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Trias...xtinction_event

[Yeti]

The chart needs a label at the Permo-Triassic boundary: "95% of fossil forming life went extinct here. You have been warned!"

Permo extinction was hundreds of millions of years ago! That chart doesn't even go back a million years.

[Roo]

The chart needs a label at the Permo-Triassic boundary: "95% of fossil forming life went extinct here. You have been warned!"

For you, Biff:

Edited April 7, 2008 by Roo

[biffvernon]

Thank you, Roo. I was, of course, referring to Mr Sleet's chart not, Essan's.

[BLAST FROM THE PAST]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7327393.stm

Just what I always thought :lol:

Its been mentioned, only 20years of a snapshot and only a small part of teh theory......poor reporting with misleading heading.

BFTP

[Essan]

With your chart it is the old chestnut , the CO2 rises after the temperature not the other way round.

I still say at the mo " no CO2 link" to climate change

I'm pretty sure the chart I posted shows a very strong link between CO2 and temp.

I didn't say it shows CO2 causes temp change :lol:

But very clearly it disputes your chart and contention that there is no connection at all between CO2 and temp

[PersianPaladin]

Well goods come at much cheaper prices than over here. My wife and her British/Chinese partner import from China and business is going well. They have a right to expand...oh and the world is cooling too presently :lol:

BFTP

With an attitude like that....we're all heading to hell in a hand cart.

China's human rights record, its mass bulldozing of homes without consultation and rampant mass production for the majority of stuff which we DONT need to buy. Its a disgrace...and you are helping to fuel it.

[West is Best]

oh and the world is cooling too presently :lol:

BFTP

Indeed Fred. I'm beginning to think we humans have absolutely bog-all to do with the climate.

[PersianPaladin]

Indeed Fred. I'm beginning to think we humans have absolutely bog-all to do with the climate.

Human kind is a microcosm of nature; we are part of nature. We affect our world, our world affects us.

But the world will ultimately have the last say.

[West is Best]

Human kind is a microcosm of nature; we are part of nature. We affect our world, our world affects us.

But the world will ultimately have the last say.

I agree with all of that. What I'm trying to suggest is that we have bog-all influence on the climate. We may be numerous but our influence is yet to be proven. The forces at work which really control climate are, I suspect, far far greater than we humans in our hubris realise.

[bluecon]

What a strange question, of course I am

Seriously, do we (people like me) just give up? I just think that would be a bit pathetic.

What exactly are you doing to stop China? Shall we force reduced emmission levels on China?

And WW2 wasn't fought so that the government would be allowed to tax us for crackpot schemes.

Therefore, in the future when China has become a economically developed country, it will have to start taking steps to lowering emissions, that is if it is willing to.

If the AGW boosters are right Chinas exponentially increasing output of AGW gasses will destroy us before it is stopped. Do you think there is twenty years of hugely increasing greenhouse gasses from China, India, etc. will have no consequences.

Edited April 7, 2008 by bluecon

[PersianPaladin]

So we're doomed then.

Despite all my efforts.....if others will not take heed then what is the point? At least we should try and look after this earth. We can pollute it and harm it quite easily.

[West is Best]

So we're doomed then.

Despite all my efforts.....if others will not take heed then what is the point? At least we should try and look after this earth. We can pollute it and harm it quite easily.

Does this not contradict a little though your point that the world will ultimately have the last say? We go about our lives, striving as best we may to look after this earth but ultimately cosmic forces are greater than our own efforts for good or ill. If the entire population of this planet could stand up close to the sun we wouldn't look very big - either in terms of our size or our abilities.

[NorthernRab]

What exactly are you doing to stop China? Shall we force reduced emmission levels on China?

And WW2 wasn't fought so that the government would be allowed to tax us for crackpot schemes.

If the AGW boosters are right Chinas exponentially increasing output of AGW gasses will destroy us before it is stopped. Do you think there is twenty years of hugely increasing greenhouse gasses from China, India, etc. will have no consequences.

Erm, no. :/

Do you think that you could stop putting words in people's mouths?

Edited April 7, 2008 by NorthernRab

[PersianPaladin]

Does this not contradict a little though your point that the world will ultimately have the last say? We go about our lives, striving as best we may to look after this earth but ultimately cosmic forces are greater than our own efforts for good or ill. If the entire population of this planet could stand up close to the sun we wouldn't look very big - either in terms of our size or our abilities.

I mean that it will eventually destroy us; but we have to remember that we can provoke it into reaction to our inputs and its reaction can be far bigger than anything we can imagine or cope with.

Basically I'm saying; the earth does have the last say....but whether it is catastrophic or merely moderating\regulatory depends on the extent of our abuse\respect for it.