In The News

[BornFromTheVoid]

Thanks for that BFTV, I thought I might have finally flipped and not given my undying appreciation to the great God petrochemical there for a moment?

Why should an appreciation of what we have now be used as an instruction for keeping the staus quo esp. when we have discovered how myopic such a view is? This is not Piaget now is it? are we really suggesting we sacrifice quantity of life for quality? Logans Run anyone?

When you discover something is bad for you you do not hark back to all the pleasure it has brought you through your time using it you simply seek to stop using it?

To me it is as simple as that but it appears to be far from that simple with the producers of that comodity appearing to be hand in hand with Govt.s to ensure it's continued usage. It's like Govt. drugs. There are so many no toxic substances for personal relaxation why does Govt. only allow us access to one of the most dangerous? Is it really to keep us tanked to the point of not questioning?

I think between x-factor, alcohol, gaming and the need for the latest gadgets, people don't have much time to question things. I find as I go through university even, I keep expecting to get to a point where I find people enthusiastic about science, but it just doesn't happen.

This year, starting a masters degree, I thought surely people would be interested in science at this stage, but even now they're generally not. The most concerning things to most in the class are still drinking, the latest console games and soccer/football.

I'm yet to meet a student through college that's passionate about what they're doing. Rather than having an opportunity to study something of interest, most see they're higher education as something extra to stick on a CV, or something to do while there are no jobs around.

Tis a pity.

[Gray-Wolf]

Maybe modern human beings are becoming complacent in that all they need to 'now' is just a click away? We no longer need to know how we get to that understanding ?

When we get to climate change some folk decide on how they 'feel' about it and not how we understand it and the way it is evolving. The number of time we come across near cut and paste 'reasons' why climate change is not made by humanity a matter of days after denialist blogs print them up. Those folk have not questioned the data merely read what they took to be 'evidence' from a resource that suits their 'feelings' on the matter.

Surely the depth and sheer width of the consensus, from across all areas of climate research , that climate change is human driven must count for something? Even the length of time that folk have had to review the science and to find errors or alternative views as plausible must mean that science is on the right tracks.

We live in such amazing times and the portion of humanity that go on to write the history of these times will surely be amazed at how little we appeared to care about it all?

[laserguy]

People really ought to think how their life would be without the use of fossil fuels, for a start off, we wouldn't be having this on-line debate without electricity and the petro-chemical industry.

And the guy in the dopey video wouldn't be wearing nice clothes,in a warm and efficient hospital,and the kid wouldn't be sucking oxygen thru' a plastic mask etc etc etc..... Let's just step into fantasy world for one moment and imagine that CO2-inspired climate change is real. If it turned out to be for the worse,as is always,always portrayed,then hell it would've been worth it for all it has afforded humanity and the progress it has furnished. Pity about the polar bears tho', I guess.

[Gray-Wolf]

And if we find that through it's economic might the oil industry has bought up , and mothballed, competing technologies that would have impacted their sales?

J' pointed out how impotent she felt in the whole capitalist system. It is as though along with advertising we are fed propoganda to keep us on side and moot.

We know that in the electronics industry (another area with rude profit margins) certain 'new lines' will be held back until current model stocks are exhausted. By the time the 'Latest' inovations are on the shop floor the replacents are already in final testing.

When a product is capable of the kind of damage fossil fuels now appear capable of is this type of economics/marketing morally sound?

J' focuses on the car. Why do we still use the wasteful motion of the current engine format (losing energy at the top and bottom of each stroke) when rotary engines were available even before the advances in heat tollerant materials? Do you remember the racing Norton with the rotary and the to do about how it should be 'measured' as to it's racing class? You could see on the straights the type of HP it had at its disposal (even if the handling was pants...and had no engine braking) some estimates of cc were over 2 litres! yet it raced in the super bike class.

In a time of energy conservation why are we still stuck in the engine stoneage? Could it be it suits someone for us to use more fuel to get the job done?

[Balls Of Snow]

This looks like a good one for the AGW fight. Would be good if the government invested in this sort of thing or maybe oil companies. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-pioneering-scientists-turn-fresh-air-into-petrol-in-massive-boost-in-fight-against-energy-crisis-8217382.html

[laserguy]

Do you remember the racing Norton with the rotary and the to do about how it should be 'measured' as to it's racing class? You could see on the straights the type of HP it had at its disposal (even if the handling was pants...and had no engine braking) some estimates of cc were over 2 litres! yet it raced in the super bike class.

In a time of energy conservation why are we still stuck in the engine stoneage? Could it be it suits someone for us to use more fuel to get the job done?

They weren't only called semolinael engines after their inventor!! Complex,horrendous fuel consumption,difficult to keep oiltight etc. I remember NSU cars in the 70's - sounded like an emancipated two stroke... Go on GW admit it - you really hanker after a hoary ol' Kwak with hi-lift cams,big bores,flat slide carbs, straight-thru' Yoshi and a sound to die for. Thank God for the DOHC petrol engine. Should they disappear in my lifetime and be replaced by electric 'motorbikes', I'd sooner be seen on a kiddies tricycle.

Edit - the swear filter has replaced the proper name of said engine with a word that sounds like a creamy dessert,but GW will know what it means!

Edited December 12, 2012 by laserguy

[Gray-Wolf]

Z1b any day!

At least on the Bikes you're always half full!

Anyhows? How come J's having a poke at the product when we were all having a go at the company ethics???

We all know the issue with Fossil fuel usage but they are separate from the decisions of the execs on how they see fit to maximise profits......margins must be real slim for those companies to go to the lengths they do with regards to cleaning up after themselves?

Did folk see what became of the safety measures they took up to the Arctic? Not pretty!

Edited December 12, 2012 by Gray-Wolf

[Interitus]

Edit - the swear filter has replaced the proper name of said engine with a word that sounds like a creamy dessert,but GW will know what it means!

It should be the one with the up-down stroke, not the rotary!

[4wd]

In the real world oil companies like any business need to see profits or they won't attract investors and have wherewithal to drill.

Bearing in mind the tax take on oil at every stage it's public coffers that benefit more than anything.

[jethro]

And if we find that through it's economic might the oil industry has bought up , and mothballed, competing technologies that would have impacted their sales?

J' pointed out how impotent she felt in the whole capitalist system. It is as though along with advertising we are fed propoganda to keep us on side and moot.

We know that in the electronics industry (another area with rude profit margins) certain 'new lines' will be held back until current model stocks are exhausted. By the time the 'Latest' inovations are on the shop floor the replacents are already in final testing.

When a product is capable of the kind of damage fossil fuels now appear capable of is this type of economics/marketing morally sound?

J' focuses on the car. Why do we still use the wasteful motion of the current engine format (losing energy at the top and bottom of each stroke) when rotary engines were available even before the advances in heat tollerant materials? Do you remember the racing Norton with the rotary and the to do about how it should be 'measured' as to it's racing class? You could see on the straights the type of HP it had at its disposal (even if the handling was pants...and had no engine braking) some estimates of cc were over 2 litres! yet it raced in the super bike class.

In a time of energy conservation why are we still stuck in the engine stoneage? Could it be it suits someone for us to use more fuel to get the job done?

Ahem, I didn't say I felt impotent, I've never felt impotent in my entire life; my ethos is you either let life happen to you or you make it happen, I've never been inclined to just accept what comes my way. What I said was the world keeps turning regardless of you or I. I, personally don't let that prevent me from living my life exactly as I choose. Do you?

[jethro]

Seems Fracking is to get the go ahead. Talk about mixed messages, we're all supposed to be facing a bleak, climate changed future and yet our government has decided to seek yet more fossil fuel instead of greener energy. Is it just me who finds it hard to take the climate change message seriously when the government pulls stunts like this? Makes me think there's less of a problem than some claim and confirms my belief that a lot of this has had more to do with conserving energy until we've got our future supplies sorted out.

Also (presuming this Mail quote is correct) how on earth can we have an Energy Minister who say's "reduce our reliance on imported gas, as we move to a low carbon economy"? Last time I checked, gas was a fossil fuel responsible for considerable carbon emissions. How can someone in that position know so little?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2247421/Fracking-resume-search-shale-gas-Ed-Davey-promises-tougher-rules-prevent-earthquakes.html

[Gray-Wolf]

This is maybe where we differ J'?

I take the science , and my own understanding of it, to say we are heading into a very dark place if we do not throttle back our GHG emmisions whilst we allow the levels currently in the atmosphere to have impact. I think we all accept that we will have impacts as the climate adjust to one comparable with current GHG levels (as we see throughout the planets history). This is the least we should do.

If we trust all of the science then we need to be looking at getting GHG's back below 350ppm before their impact is fully felt within the climate system as this would entail additions of the currently dormant potion of our carbon cycle to re-animate and add another wallop of GHG's making reductions more challenging.

To see the planet yet again make grand Public promises and then act in an opposite manner leads me to believe that bodies with a 5 year term of power to try and implement their version of 'society' will never spend the billions required to address their promises.

It is like a game of Jenga. The Govt. in power when catastrophe strikes will then act but only as a reaction and not to prevent the catastrophe. It is sad but true. To spend before would cost them the next term in Govt. but once dissaster strikes they will be the heroes for investing the money and saving Britain.

I just have to hope that the 'signal' that makes them see they have to act will be one that is clear but not too damaging? The start of a massive positive feedback loop and we're all toast even if the initial impacts are in the Arctic/U.S./Asia/Antarctica!

[Gray-Wolf]

God bless America!

http://news.yahoo.com/nearly-four-10-u-residents-blame-weather-end-200603898.html

4 out of 10 say the extreme weather is a sign of the 'end Times' , 6 out of 10 say it's climate change...........

[BornFromTheVoid]

I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can base their understanding of a serious scientific issue on the actions of politicians who only think as far ahead as the next election.

Only in climate change...

[knocker]

Some seem to be taking it seriously.

Top Officials Meet at ONR as Arctic Changes Quicken

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: December 13, 2012

By David Smalley, Office of Naval Research

ARLINGTON, Va.—The Navy’s chief of naval research, Rear Adm. Matthew Klunder, met this week with leaders from U.S. and Canadian government agencies to address research efforts in the Arctic, in response to dramatic and accelerating changes in summer sea ice coverage.

“Our Sailors and Marines need to have a full understanding of the dynamic Arctic environment, which will be critical to protecting and maintaining our national, economic and security interests,†said Klunder. “Our research will allow us to know what’s happening, to predict what is likely to come for the region, and give leadership the information it needs to formulate the best policies and plans for future Arctic operations.â€

The Arctic Summit, held Dec. 11 at the Office of Naval Research (ONR) headquarters in Arlington, enabled senior leaders from ONR, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Defense Research and Development Canada, the Departments of Energy and Interior, NASA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), the National Science Foundation, the Navy Task Force Climate Change and more to share important scientific ideas on the region. One of the goals of the summit was to assess the different Arctic research efforts—and potentially form new research partnerships.

“Vital and varied Arctic research is taking place across a number of agencies,†Klunder said. “We are identifying areas of common scientific interest—and ideally come up with a comprehensive mutual understanding of everyone’s current and planned efforts.â€

In the wake of last week’s widely reported release of NOAA’s Arctic Report Card—co-edited by ONR program officer and Arctic science expert Dr. Martin Jeffries—new concerns have arisen over record-low levels of sea ice and snow in the Arctic.

http://www.onr.navy.mil/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2012/Arctic-Summit-ONR-Climate-Change.aspx

[keithlucky]

IPPC jig up global warming http://blogs.telegra...-the-jig-is-up/

[Methuselah]

Another straw man?

[4wd]

Well that won't be on the BBC.or in the Guardian

But the blogs will have another field day, and rightly so.

[jethro]

Not knowing the influence that clouds may have on climate isn't new news, the problem has been acknowledged in every IPCC report. Some clouds may cause cooling, some clouds may cause warming, deciphering the overall signal is proving a headache but hopefully with information that will come from the Aqua satellite, we may be able to get closer to knowing. As for the Sun's influence, again it's been accepted for a very long time that there may be influences other than TSI, what they are though we simply don't know - I don't see how the influence can be fully included in the IPCC reports if we don't know what it is.

I'm all for flaws/errors in science being explored but this isn't really a flaw in the AGW debate, it's simply lack of knowledge. Perhaps Delingpole should have read the various IPCC reports first, then he would have known this is lack of data rather than error. If he has read them and still thinks this is an error then he clearly hasn't understood them which begs the question, why is he commenting at all?

Edited December 14, 2012 by jethro

[Gray-Wolf]

It's just timing j'. Pour out nonsense prior to the holidays and you can fuel debate and confusion over the period were people gather socially.

I've always maintained that folk will cling to good news rather than accept bad news (the first stage of loss is denial?).

I thought that the Indian Ocean studies on Global dimming showed that pollution impacted the size of raindrops by super seeding clouds with condensation nuclei and so growing smaller , more numerous, raindrops for greater scattering of the incoming Sunlight?

Not only do we need a definitive on high level and low level clouds interaction with incoming solar but how much particulate pollution has now changed this process.

Maybe this story is akin to the Floridian Igloo that supposedly showed the death of AGW? Take an aspect of AGW and pretend it is a proof otherwise?

Look at recent stats and I'll wager that they show high reflectivity from these super seeded clouds dosed with particulate pollution.

Take away the pollution and those clouds become less reflective as raindrops grow back to their normal size and reflect less solar,

Unluckily for us we will see this occur as Asia cleans up it's particulate pollution over the coming decade.

[jethro]

Meanwhile, more news on the fracking front.....

http://frack-off.org.uk/huge-gas-plans-for-airth-100-rigs-compulsory-purchase-orders-and-fracking-not-ruled-out/

If this report is accurate, I'm more than a little disturbed by the prospect of them being able to wave compulsory purchase orders around.

[laserguy]

Meanwhile, more news on the fracking front.....

It's all kicking off! On the one hand government blathers on about tackling climate change, on the other it seemingly adds fuel to the fire like someone dying of alcoholic cirrhosis supping a coupla litres of whisky a day. Climate change -pah!

[4wd]

Well that site, complete with flashing skull and crossbones to show death z ones near possible drilling sites does not look to be terribly rational in it's approach.

[Methuselah]

Meanwhile, more news on the fracking front.....

http://frack-off.org...-not-ruled-out/

If this report is accurate, I'm more than a little disturbed by the prospect of them being able to wave compulsory purchase orders around.

Very worrying, J...A new raft of ersatz (though lucrative) directorships for the ex-ministers'/family friends' gravy train?

[Gray-Wolf]

Very worrying, J...A new raft of ersatz (though lucrative) directorships for the ex-ministers'/family friends' gravy train?

Careful Pete! J' will be saying you're talking conspiracies! (LOL).

When Govt. Ministers have connections to industries are they not honour bound to declare them?

As for the impression it gives? It appears that they agree with some posters here and that we cannot think of any other way of maintaining our lifestyles no matter what the costs over the longer term? Sadly the 'Longer term' would have been just that back in the 80's but today it appears that we are beginning to enter this 'longer term' and inherit the costs we built up back then?

I'm sure, and fearful, that the climate will eventually dictate a radical new approach to how we fund our living. It would be very sad if we saw the Capitalist dream proving even more costly in lives and misery that it has been to date? Odd that a nation, who on the surface appears so Christian, appears to have no notion of what Christ instructed them on wealth and heaven, on charity and humility?

Edited December 14, 2012 by Gray-Wolf