Antarctic Ice Discussion

[keithlucky]

http://www.nature.com/news/robot-reveals-surprisingly-thick-antarctic-sea-ice-1.16397

 

Yes funny that the Antarctic is defying the so called "Warming World"the Antarctic is showing that Data tampering is happening ,and the Antarctic continues to defy GW and model predictions as Antarctic will break more sea ice records, until Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation occurs.

Edited March 21, 2015 by keithlucky

[knocker]

Some info on the PIG.

 

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glaciers-and-climate/shrinking-ice-shelves/pine-island-glacier/

[Gray-Wolf]

One thing not mentioned knocks is the shape of the basin that the ice is in? At present it has retreated back to a topographical 'pinch point' so ice losses are reduced. Sadly the next major calve or two will bring the ice front back into a wide open basin increasing the calving front by over a factor of 5 ( and so the amount of ice calved each year will increase). Science appear very concerned about this development ( well before they found the issues in the east with totten?).

[Gael_Force]

Yes funny that the Antarctic is defying the so called "Warming World"the Antarctic is showing that Data tampering is happening ,and the Antarctic continues to defy GW and model predictions as Antarctic will break more sea ice records, until Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation occurs.

What do you mean by the bit I've highlighted? AMO is an ongoing NH ocean oscillation, how will it affect the ice in the Antarctic?

[Gray-Wolf]

Hi G.F. ! we know that ENSO can impact mass loss in Antarctica ( changes in wind directions alter warm water ingress flow rates?) so we do see northern hemisphere events impacting the continent. In the noughties we saw an Alaskan storm send swells which smashed one of the larsens so even individual weather events can show impact down there!

 

As for a measure of air pressure over two areas ? ( the AMO is not a 'thing' but a way of visualising two things together) I think it, along with some mysterious solar forcing, is what the naysayers hold out for? Sadly reduction in China's 'dirty pollution' will show far more of an effect than either of their 'form horses' over the next decade? 

 

With the ozone hole now appearing to be beyond its peak the forcing this places on the atmosphere over Antarctica will also be on the wane so expect the sea ice to now begin to follow the trajectory we saw through the 90's/noughties ( i.e. the deniers will not be posting every other day concerning Antarctic Sea ice) and then on to the rapid collapse in Sea ice areas that the models show us ( keep an eye around Ross Sea!).

 

An odd decade in front of us all in all? Chinese dimming on the decline, naturals swinging positive, Arctic Amplification ramping up? It appears that the deniers made good use of negative naturals and high dimming from Asia ( not that these stopped atmospheric warming any?) but now the folk concerned about warming are to be treated to positive naturals and falling dimming whilst the Arctic melts out........ not good. 

[Gael_Force]

Hi Gray, when you say " As for a measure of air pressure over two areas ? ( the AMO is not a 'thing' but a way of visualising two things together)" - are you confusing NAO with AMO?

 

Mind, they are both probably very inter-connected but the AMO measures sea surface temps in the Atlantic and variations of these may be fundamental to our local climate and Arctic ice but I'm still confused by what Keith means in terms of Antarctic.

 

http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/9/3/034018/article

Edited March 22, 2015 by Gael_Force

[Gray-Wolf]

Sorry GF! acronym blindness is my only plea ( along with insanity). Of course you are right...... but again I think things are swinging away from 'pure' natural forcings as our forcing begin to bite harder? If the PDO positive is being influenced by both the wayward jet low ice brings and a fall off in Pacific dimming due to a Chinese clean air initiative then maybe we are seeing AGW now challenging 'old' naturals?

[knocker]

Short but not uninteresting vimeo.

 

https://vimeo.com/122903206

[knocker]

Glacial ice and atmospheric forcing on the Mertz Glacier Polynya over the past 250 years

 

The Mertz Glacier Polynya off George V Land, East Antarctica, is a source of Adélie Land Bottom Water, which contributes up to ~25% of the Antarctic Bottom Water. This major polynya is closely linked to the presence of the Mertz Glacier Tongue that traps pack ice upstream. In 2010, the Mertz Glacier calved a massive iceberg, deeply impacting local sea ice conditions and dense shelf water formation. Here we provide the first detailed 250-year long reconstruction of local sea ice and bottom water conditions. Spectral analysis of the data sets reveals large and abrupt changes in sea surface and bottom water conditions with a ~70-year cyclicity, associated with the Mertz Glacier Tongue calving and regrowth dynamics. Geological data and atmospheric reanalysis, however, suggest that sea ice conditions in the polynya were also very sensitive to changes in surface winds in relation to the recent intensification of the Southern Annular Mode.

 

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150324/ncomms7642/full/ncomms7642.html

 

General discussion

 

http://theconversation.com/when-an-antarctic-iceberg-the-size-of-a-country-breaks-away-what-happens-next-39257

[knocker]

Antarctic Ice Shelves Melting at Accelerating Rate

 

Antarctica is pretty much covered with glaciers. Glaciers are dynamic entities that, unless they are in full melt, tend to grow near their thickest parts (that’s why those are the thickest parts) and mush outwards towards the edges, where the liminal areas either melt (usually seasonally) in situ or drop off into the sea.

 

Antarctic’s glaciers are surrounded by a number of floating ice shelves. The ice shelves are really the distal reaches of the moving glaciers floating over the ocean. This is one of the places, probably the place at present, where melting accelerated by human caused greenhouse gas pollution occurs. The ice shelves are fixed in place along their margins (they typically cover linear fjord like valleys) and at a grounding point underneath the shelf some distance form the ice margin but under sea level.

 

The collapse or disintegration of an ice shelf is thought to lead to the more rapid movement of the corresponding glacial mass towards the sea, and increased melting. This is the big problem right now with estimating the rate of glacial melting in the Antarctic. This is not a steady and regular process, as rapid disintegration of an ice shelf is possible. Most likely, Antarctic glacial melting over the coming decades will involve occasional catastrophic of an ice shelf followed by more rapid glacial melting at that point.

 

Unfortunately, the ice shelves are generally becoming more vulnerable to this sort of process, a new study just out in Science shows. From the abstract:

 

[Crepuscular Ray]

And a discussion from the World Service - available for about 6 days, as far as I can see.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02m9lpj

[Gray-Wolf]

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/weatherhistorian/comment.html?entrynum=323

 

Record breaking warmth in Antarctica.

[picog]

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/weatherhistorian/comment.html?entrynum=323

 

Record breaking warmth in Antarctica.

Isn't there some debate as whether this area of Antartica is true Antartica since it is outside of the Antartic circle?

[knocker]

Isn't there some debate as whether this area of Antartica is true Antartica since it is outside of the Antartic circle?

 

This is discussed in the link,

 

That being said, and given the recent extraordinary temperatures observed at Esperanza and Marambio, there is a chance that the WMO may wish to launch such (an investigation of Antarctica’s warmest measured temperature).

Should this happen the first issue will be the definition of the region of ‘Antarctica’ for the purpose of weather records relating to the continent. There could be perhaps three (or even four) possible scenarios.

1) The narrowest interpretation might be to include only sites that are south of the Antarctic Circle (near 66°S latitude). In that case, Esperanza would not be part of the record set and the Vanda figure might stand. See map above.

2) A more broadly accepted definition would be that adopted by the Antarctic Treaty System in 1961 which defined ‘Antarctica’ to include all land and ice shelves located south of the 60°S latitude. Should this interpretation be used, then the South Orkney Islands, which lie about 500 kilometers northeast of the northern tip of the Antarctic Peninsula, would fall inside the investigation area. That would mean that the British outpost, Signy Research Station (latitude near 60° 43’S), on Signy Island would have measured the warmest temperature on record in Antarctica with a 19.8°C (67.6°F) on January 30, 1982 according to research by Maximiliano Herrera.

3) The third possible definition would be to include only the landmass of Antarctica (although the Antarctica Peninsula is actually composed of a series of islands connected to one another by glaciers and ice sheets). In that case the recent 17.5°C at Base Esperanza would most likely stand as the warmest temperature yet measured on the continent.

4) Maximiliano adds yet a possible fourth consideration: areas associated with the Antarctic geological shelf. See his note on his Wiki page of continental records here. He adds the following footnote: “If we consider the geological case, Amsterdam Island, (located at 37° 49'S and 77° 33'E), which belongs to the French dependence of the French Southern and Antarctic Lands and associated with Africa, lies on the Antarctic plate and has a highest temperature of 26.4°C (79.4°F) on 30 January 2005â€.

[keithlucky]

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/weatherhistorian/comment.html?entrynum=323

 

Record breaking warmth in Antarctica.

Utter tosh from Jason Samenow at the Capital Weather Gang they pick one dayTemps in interior of Antarctica at-83f  and record sea ice 1million sq km above average also Temperatures have been declining for over 35yrs,http://images.remss.com/data/msu/graphics/tlt/medium/global/MSU_AMSU_Channel_tlt_Trend_Map_v03_3_1979_2014.730_450.png

Edited March 31, 2015 by keithlucky

[Devonian]

Utter tosh from Jason Samenow at the Capital Weather Gang they pick one dayTemps in interior of Antarctica at-83f  and record sea ice 1million sq km above average also Temperatures have been declining for over 35yrs,http://images.remss.com/data/msu/graphics/tlt/medium/global/MSU_AMSU_Channel_tlt_Trend_Map_v03_3_1979_2014.730_450.png

Please stop parroting Goddard (who is willfully ignorant) will you Keith? Or at least acknowledge said parroting as someone else's nonsense not yours.

Antarctic pennisula - some links for you:

http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/bas_research/science/climate/antarctic_peninsula.php

And this is funny - a sceptic using the warming of.....Base Esperanza to 'disprove' the models - oh the irony http://appinsys.com/globalwarming/RS_Antarctica.htm

Edited March 31, 2015 by Devonian

[knocker]

Antarctica’s Record High Temp Bodes Ill for Ice

 

The Antarctic Peninsula is one of the fastest warming spots on the planet, but in recent days, a stubborn weather pattern sent temperatures skyrocketing there, setting a record high for the continent.

While the event that set the mercury soaring — called a Chinook, or foehn wind — isn’t unusual for the region, it does seem to be increasing with climate change, as winds around Antarctica become stronger. Scientists are worried that if these sudden warming events become more common or more intense, they could put the already threatened ice of the peninsula in an even more precarious situation, with serious implications for global sea level rise.

 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/antarctica-record-high-temp-bodes-ill-for-ice-18840

[keithlucky]

Antarctica’s Record High Temp Bodes Ill for Ice

 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/antarctica-record-high-temp-bodes-ill-for-ice-18840

 

Did the Antarctic have its warmest day ever of course not To put this in perspective, it would be the equivalent of taking a temperature measurement in Reykjavík, Iceland, and proclaiming that this measurement is indicative of the temperature of the Arctic region, or worse.',more nonsense put to bed.http://www.examiner.com/article/did-antarctica-really-have-its-warmest-day-on-record

Edited April 1, 2015 by keithlucky

[knocker]

Did the Antarctic have its warmest day ever of course not To put this in perspective, it would be the equivalent of taking a temperature measurement in Reykjavík, Iceland, and proclaiming that this measurement is indicative of the temperature of the Arctic region, or worse.',more nonsense put to bed.http://www.examiner.com/article/did-antarctica-really-have-its-warmest-day-on-record

 

And all this was said, in more detail, in GWs original and other subsequent posts. There is really no need for you to get over excited.

[Devonian]

Did the Antarctic have its warmest day ever of course not To put this in perspective, it would be the equivalent of taking a temperature measurement in Reykjavík, Iceland, and proclaiming that this measurement is indicative of the temperature of the Arctic region, or worse.',more nonsense put to bed.http://www.examiner.com/article/did-antarctica-really-have-its-warmest-day-on-record

What twaddle that article is Keith.

Next thing you'll be saying is America's highest temperatures don't happen in Death Valley because it's not like New York.

[stewfox]

What twaddle that article is Keith.

Next thing you'll be saying is America's highest temperatures don't happen in Death Valley because it's not like New York.

 

Actually a better analogy would be record breaking warmth in Gibraltar and use the head line

 

""Recording breaking warmth in the UK""

 

It was a few tenths of a degree higher than the previous record, also set at Esperanza, on April 24, 1961 and there is debate whether it form part of Antarctica

 

​Mean while back in Antarctica sea ice extent sets another daily record

 

https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/vishop-extent.html?S

[stewfox]

Please stop parroting Goddard (who is willfully ignorant) will you Keith? Or at least acknowledge said parroting as someone else's nonsense not yours.

Antarctic pennisula - some links for you:

http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/bas_research/science/climate/antarctic_peninsula.php

And this is funny - a sceptic using the warming of.....Base Esperanza to 'disprove' the models - oh the irony http://appinsys.com/globalwarming/RS_Antarctica.htm

 

That article is 10yrs old ?

----------------

During the past 50 years around 25,000 km2 of ice have been lost from ten floating ice shelves [Cook, pers. comm., 2008], 87% of glacier termini have retreated [Cook, et al., 2005]; and there is evidence seasonal snow cover has decreased in recent decades [Fox and Cooper, 1998].

-----------------

 

Are we really looking at the world  based on 'there is some evidence in 1998 that seasonal snow cover is reducing'  ??

 

Mean while record ice growth continues in 2015. Another daily record smashed

 

https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/vishop-extent.html?S

Edited April 3, 2015 by stewfox

[Devonian]

Actually a better analogy would be record breaking warmth in Gibraltar and use the head line

 

""Recording breaking warmth in the UK""

 

It was a few tenths of a degree higher than the previous record, also set at Esperanza, on April 24, 1961 and there is debate whether it form part of Antarctica

 

​Mean while back in Antarctica sea ice extent sets another daily record

 

https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/vishop-extent.html?S

Stew, it's clear what Antarctica is - look at any map. Heck, you say 'meanwhile back in Antarctica' talk about sea ice - which extends beyond the continent! YOU know what Antarctica is, the temperature was recorded in Antarctica.

Further, it's all pretty insignificant. It does mean little to Antarctica just like a record in Death Vally means little to the USA. But, such is the dog whistle effect of anything warm on sceptics you all start protesting.

[knocker]

Of course I know this doesn't apply to those who inhabit this forum but just in case........................................

 

 

There is some confusion among the public about the differences between Antarctica’s ice shelves (the topic of a recent paper by us in Science), sea ice, and the ice sheet.  Some commenters are concerned about apparent contradictions between our new study of volume loss from ice shelves and reported increases in Antarctic sea ice extent. This comment explains the different ice types, and explains why the observed different behavior of each type is not contradicting the others.
You can learn more about different types of ice at NSIDC including how they form, how we measure them, and why they are important.

 

http://glaciology.weebly.com/articles.html

[Tasboy]

 

Mean while record ice growth continues in 2015. Another daily record smashed

 

Um, no it isn't.