Model Mayhem - Moan, Ramp, Go Nuts

[Average Joe]

Dont worry I am hating this cold too I can see there being a very poor show of daffodils this year, the cold lovers have been moaning a lot over the winter but they have no right to, the winters of the last few 5 years or so have been going their way, but the summers are not giving the hotties what they want for the last few years,but I rarley hear them complain.

The only good thing about the colder climate is keeping the flea population at bay , remember those hot humid summers of the nineties when flea infestations for dog and cat owners became rife . so the cold does have its uses.

The coldies do tend to get rather over excited I must admit. Not quite sure what there is to get excited about weather such as yesterdays.....just ask those stuck on the A23 last night whether they'd prefer dry & cloudy or snow & ice and I think you'd get a resounding vote in favour of the former.

But hey if we were all the same then life would be very boring!

[IanR]

The coldies do tend to get rather over excited I must admit. Not quite sure what there is to get excited about weather such as yesterdays.....just ask those stuck on the A23 last night whether they'd prefer dry & cloudy or snow & ice and I think you'd get a resounding vote in favour of the former.

But hey if we were all the same then life would be very boring!

yes, each to their own, cant see the fascination over cold icy weather, Then again some find me weird for being obssessed with thunderstorms, atlantic gales and heavy showers etc,

[mushymanrob]

Can we all stick to discussing the models. If you find a post offensive, press the report button and we can deal with it, there's no need to litter the thread with endless replies which just take the thread even further off topic.

So, is it going to stay cold or is Spring going to make an appearance?

the trouble with that though is that liking the cold/snow and saying so isnt against the rules..... but it does kinda rub salt into the wounds of those of us who are losing significant ammounts of money due to the cold.

ok, we know what the game is, we know it can be cold/frosty, we (as in fellow gardeners, contractors, farmers, probably groundworkers and builders too) expect some delays. but this march looks like being a protracted spell. its bad enough that we are losing money after a winter where hardly anything was taken, but to read posts glorying at the prospect of further cold IS insulting, it IS mildy offensive that people want this to happen.

the model discussion thread is just that, not a snowlovers forum. there are plenty of people from all walks of life who read the thread for more info then what the media provide. others in my position will be equally insensed by the glorification of more financial misery that further cold would bring.

then youve got the cold bias, the thread gets smothered every year by seasonal snow fans.... but its supposed to be a weather forum... its no wonder you get sensationalist headlines in the media, no doubt some journo hack reads the opinions on forums like this, they read all the snowramping rubbish (and just trawl back through the threads, see who wrote what, then compare with what we actually got... youll see just how much nonsense was posted), take it as 'the truth' and print sensationalist misleading headlines.

id suggest that next year, theres the technical thread, the 'general' model thread (for unbiased and objective posts by the likes of tws, mg, jh etc) and a thread for cold/snowlovers to indulge in their snow/cold spotting game. .... if this thread was for that, its failed. that way those of us who dont want to trawl through reams of 'anti mild' posts to find the posts worth reading, can do so, it would eliminate the offence mild calling, or cold ramping causes. and coldies wouldnt be offended either by views that dont support or contradict what they want.

everybodies happy.

[peterf]

I think it is a case of lamp post watching..

I don't read the daily Gibby or other long winded regular daily chart post's, as I am just as capable of reading the weather forecast on the Meto website which sums it up with a few symbols and numbers without the waffle.

speaking of waffle

[Average Joe]

the trouble with that though is that liking the cold/snow and saying so isnt against the rules..... but it does kinda rub salt into the wounds of those of us who are losing significant ammounts of money due to the cold.

ok, we know what the game is, we know it can be cold/frosty, we (as in fellow gardeners, contractors, farmers, probably groundworkers and builders too) expect some delays. but this march looks like being a protracted spell. its bad enough that we are losing money after a winter where hardly anything was taken, but to read posts glorying at the prospect of further cold IS insulting, it IS mildy offensive that people want this to happen.

the model discussion thread is just that, not a snowlovers forum. there are plenty of people from all walks of life who read the thread for more info then what the media provide. others in my position will be equally insensed by the glorification of more financial misery that further cold would bring.

then youve got the cold bias, the thread gets smothered every year by seasonal snow fans.... but its supposed to be a weather forum... its no wonder you get sensationalist headlines in the media, no doubt some journo hack reads the opinions on forums like this, they read all the snowramping rubbish (and just trawl back through the threads, see who wrote what, then compare with what we actually got... youll see just how much nonsense was posted), take it as 'the truth' and print sensationalist misleading headlines.

id suggest that next year, theres the technical thread, the 'general' model thread (for unbiased and objective posts by the likes of tws, mg, jh etc) and a thread for cold/snowlovers to indulge in their snow/cold spotting game. .... if this thread was for that, its failed. that way those of us who dont want to trawl through reams of 'anti mild' posts to find the posts worth reading, can do so, it would eliminate the offence mild calling, or cold ramping causes. and coldies wouldnt be offended either by views that dont support or contradict what they want.

everybodies happy.

I'd go along with that Rob. I've found that the "Discussion" thread is just as you say, an environment for the snow & cold lovers to state how gleeful they are, and yet whenever someone puts an opposing viewpoint they tend to get rather stroppy. Even those who apparently are the more seasoned pro's and ones anyone new should listen to are all purely cold biased.

Everyone is different and that's fine, but this continued snow & biting cold isn't to everyone's taste, and in my case along with others it causes significant business, financial and logistical headaches. Maybe not the hurricane that was mentioned on the main board, but losing one's business can have similar long term effects.

[LomondSnowstorm]

bib if that were true then i wouldnt have ignored the snow potential last nights runs suggested. the ecm and gfs both had large snow potential

the point is that that chart is only one chart with no support from the gfs , plus its march, we are not immune from snow, by a mile, but i dont see that one chart as it stands as being one i worry about. (unlike last nights ecm and gfs).

I didn't mean in terms of the actual substantive model discussion, which I think you're one of the most balanced posters on here, and I agree with your broad analysis most of the time. Currently UKMO and ECM are cold and potentially snowy runs, potentially very snowy for my neck of the woods in fact (which isn't unheard of at this time of year but not in as prolonged a spell as we currently appear to be heading for) but with the GFS 12Z looking somewhat more benign.

I simply meant that sometimes from a fair weather perspective Polar and Arctic airmasses can be more desirable than Tropical ones depending on the setup. Equally cold sometimes are often overly vaunted by cold 'fans', whereas in reality (moreso with continental flows) the end result can end up similar to January - overcast without much in the way of crispness or really deep cold around. Anyway, that's more a semantics point and this is why this is going in the mayhem thread so as not to irk the poor moderators!

[davehsug]

I've noticed that 1 or 2 have now taken to calling themselves "weather enthusiasts"! Simply because of the extremity of the charts. I wonder how many would still be "enthusing" if it was the middle of January & 16c? Let's just get some decent weather & then we can be rid of them until August when the first -10 appears over Greenland & they return to give us the benefit of their enthusiasm all over again.

[Thundery wintry showers]

I think many weather enthusiasts are especially interested in extremes- particularly those relating to cold/snow in winter, hot dry sunny weather in summer, thunderstorms, and notable out-of-season events. I don't see anything wrong with people making that particular point although I do feel that those who are interrested only in snow would be better termed snow enthusiasts.

I do sympathise with Mushymanrob's sentiments. I know how irritated I get in summer when I'm looking forward to a spell of high convective potential in summer, browse the model output thread, and find a series of posts dismissing it as "unsettled dross" and lumping it together with a preceding dull, cold, wet, windy and thunder-free spell of weather. I can see that those who lose money as a result of a cold start to spring will find reading scores of positive value judgements on cold/snow similarly or more difficult to take.

The main problem is that, by popular demand, the main model output thread is used as a sort of equivalent to the old BBC "Snow Watch" and it is fiendishly hard to resist that, particularly when we get scores of posts coming in every minute, so the best we can do is try to ensure that the posts are focused on what the models are showing, and use the technical thread as an escape hatch.

As for Mushy, if you're reading this, your contributions would be welcome in the technical thread as I recall that we tried a similar thread a couple of years ago and your posts in there went down rather well. Unfortunately the thread died a death on that occasion, but this time around we have the likes of Gibby and Glacier Point putting in contributions and they tend to stick around during the summer half-year so I'm hopeful that the technical thread will keep on going this year.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Thundery wintry showers

[davehsug]

I think many weather enthusiasts are especially interested in extremes- particularly those relating to cold/snow in winter, hot dry sunny weather in summer, thunderstorms, and notable out-of-season events. I don't see anything wrong with people making that particular point although I do feel that those who are interrested only in snow would be better termed snow enthusiasts.

I do sympathise with Mushymanrob's sentiments. I know how irritated I get in summer when I'm looking forward to a spell of high convective potential in summer, browse the model output thread, and find a series of posts dismissing it as "unsettled dross" and lumping it together with a preceding dull, cold, wet, windy and thunder-free spell of weather. I can see that those who lose money as a result of a cold start to spring will find reading scores of positive value judgements on cold/snow similarly or more difficult to take.

The main problem is that, by popular demand, the main model output thread is used as a sort of equivalent to the old BBC "Snow Watch" and it is fiendishly hard to resist that, particularly when we get scores of posts coming in every minute, so the best we can do is try to ensure that the posts are focused on what the models are showing, and use the technical thread as an escape hatch.

As for Mushy, if you're reading this, your contributions would be welcome in the technical thread as I recall that we tried a similar thread a couple of years ago and your posts in there went down rather well. Unfortunately the thread died a death on that occasion, but this time around we have the likes of Gibby and Glacier Point putting in contributions and they tend to stick around during the summer half-year so I'm hopeful that the technical thread will keep on going this year.

Hi Ian. I was being a bit sarky with the weather enthusiast thing! As you say, they are only enthusiasts for snow, not even cold if it doesn't! I'll admit I do find the current charts interesting, doesn't mean I have to like 'em though!

[LomondSnowstorm]

I've noticed that 1 or 2 have now taken to calling themselves "weather enthusiasts"! Simply because of the extremity of the charts. I wonder how many would still be "enthusing" if it was the middle of January & 16c? Let's just get some decent weather & then we can be rid of them until August when the first -10 appears over Greenland & they return to give us the benefit of their enthusiasm all over again.

In fairness 'they' (I'm not sure whether to count myself in this group since I am at least semi-seasonal in my visitations, but then why waste what little summer we get sitting indoors all day on a forum?) constitute most of the visitors to the forum and we have to accept that the majority of people really do love snow. I like all extremes of weather, even the ones which require a bit of statistical wonkiness to appreciate (like dullest first ten days of July in history as Scotland had last year), but I most especially love snow.

I appreciate the disruption it can cause and some people find that an annoyance or something detrimental to business but for me a protracted spell of snow and cold like we had in 2009/10 and 2010/11 is just fantastic. The landscape is transformed, and more beautiful, there's the potential for winter sports from skiing to sledging, if you can get to the nearest hill the visibility can be magnificent in a frozen Arctic regime with snowcover, the air is crisp, there's less air pollution, no hay fever, no pesky wasps or midges and actually a greater sense of community spirit and happiness. We never really got to know many of the newcomers to the village for example until the snowfall of December 2010 when we had to dig out the path and the pavement and (and because the roads were impassible had all the time in the world to do so) walk to the village shop every day or take the bus to the baker in the nearest village to get supplies, and in fact the local shops were actually gaining a whole chunk of business because people couldn't just go to the supermarket as they usually would. I guess it's a sort of 'inner child' thing too, from anticipating snow days when I was wee to building snowmen etc., once you get past the unavoidable inconvenience to daily life it can be immensely fun.

[Thundery wintry showers]

The main explanation for my continued interest in snow at this time of year is those showery northerly types with the stronger sun setting off convection inland, towering Cb cells with snow and hail shafts, and dramatic variations in weather, temperature and visibility over short spaces of time. Today was a decent example here in North Yorkshire, when one snow shower sent the temperature down from 4.5C to 1.3C in about half an hour, and viewed from inside the snow shower resembled those "snow globe shakers". Spring is the best time of year for this, for although you can get similar effects from a cold unstable north-easterly or north-westerly type in winter, it is rarely quite as dramatic, and is usually minus the sharp temperature fluctuations.

I recognise the fact that such late cold snaps cause damaging hard frosts and kill wildlife and eat into some people's revenues, and that "switch-arounds" between warm sunshine and frosty snowy spells can be particularly bad for crop damage. However, I don't think the overall level of inconvenience and disruption caused by a variable spring is any worse than, say, a freeze-up in January, a summer drought, or a consistently dull wet summer- rather, different groups of people and different sections of wildlife are primarily hit in each case. For these reasons I will persist in enjoying these spring northerlies but I try to keep value judgements to a minimum in the model output thread as I know how much annoyance they can cause, particularly to those being heavily hit by the downsides of such weather.

I don't like being thought of as a mildie or coldie to be honest- in winter I am excited by a wider range of cold weather patterns than warm ones, and vice versa in summer, but I am never completely at one end of the warm/cold fence or the other. For example I rather enjoyed that spell of westerlies at the end of January.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Thundery wintry showers

[shaky]

Fantastic ecm and ukmo charts this morning!!gfs being a pain in the bum onve again!!have a feeling we gona end up with a middle ground solution though!snow in the north rain in the south maybe!!

[mushymanrob]

I've noticed that 1 or 2 have now taken to calling themselves "weather enthusiasts"! Simply because of the extremity of the charts. I wonder how many would still be "enthusing" if it was the middle of January & 16c? Let's just get some decent weather & then we can be rid of them until August when the first -10 appears over Greenland & they return to give us the benefit of their enthusiasm all over again.

i am... always have been be it good or bad weather...im an outdoor bloke, the weather has been the backdrop to my life. being human there are types i like more then others based on what suits or fits what im doing.

i think true weather fans/enthusiasts can be found on the forum all year round. i dont think seasonal (summer or winter) are true weather fans.

tws ... thanks

...oh and for those who reckon 'spring is on hold'... no it isnt, not now, it might be cool but the weather ive had both yesterday and today is normal early spring weather albeit on the cool side.

[Aaron]

Even though I am less enthusiastic about the possibility of very mild weather in January, as I firmly believe winter should be the season of cold and snow, I would still get excited if the temperature here reached 16C in the middle of January, likewise, even though I have a disdain for heat, I would be excited by a potentially record breaking heatwave, it is an interesting and unusual weather phenomenon, at least from a statistical point of view.

In general, though, I do not appreciate mild weather between December and February, and I do not appreciate hot weather at all for more than a few days at a time. Thankfully, heat is rare for more than 2 days at a time, the likes of 2006, 2003, and 1995 excluded, but our winters are mild most of the time. I am present all year, though, even though I prefer snow to every other type of weather, nowadays at least. Prior to 2008, I was fixated on thunderstorms, probably because they occurred a lot more, while thunderstorms are becoming rarer with each passing year here, but snow is occurring a lot more.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Aaron

[SussexmarkyMark]

Perhaps the 'enthusiasts' should have spent over 11 hours on the A23 between Crawley and Brighton on Monday night, like I did, and they might be a little less enthusiastic about disruptive snow. It's certainly changed my view of snow and has increased my longing for some spring warmth considerably. Still only 5c today and well below average unfortunately.

[Aaron]

Perhaps the 'enthusiasts' should have spent over 11 hours on the A23 between Crawley and Brighton on Monday night, like I did, and they might be a little less enthusiastic about disruptive snow. It's certainly changed my view of snow and has increased my longing for some spring warmth considerably. Still only 5c today and well below average unfortunately.

My life has been disrupted plenty due to snow, and it's ignorant of you to presume otherwise, but my love of snow is cannot be waned easily. It would take something truly exceptional or unpleasant for my love of snow to suddenly disappear. I have learnt that most types of weather I appreciate cause disruption for someone, somewhere, and I am sure the same holds true for everyone else on this forum. Let's be honest, if we are going to attack everyone for liking disruptive weather, this forum would die a death overnight, and it is no coincidence that people only attack other people for enjoying disruptive weather when that weather directly affects them. If a person with a hatred of heat attacked you or anyone else for enjoying heat because his elderly mother almost died in 2006, would you be okay with that?

Edited March 14, 2013 by Aaron

[Yarmy]

Why should anyone apologise for chasing cold in Winter (or any other time)? It's not like major disruptive cold and snow is a problem for the UK. On the contrary, it's incredibly rare. Should we all be wagging patrician fingers at those who chase Storms in the States?

Personally, I'm looking for clear skies and warmth from now on, but I don't begrudge (and moreover, don't judge) anyone chasing a last shot of Winter weather.

[davehsug]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear! I was complaining that they are now calling themselves enthusiasts, because of the extreme nature of the charts outside of normal winter. Fair enough, but they'll be gone shortly & won't be enthusiastic about unusual weather events throughout the rest of the year, as many of the rest of us will be. There is a relatively new poster, with not that many posts, getting dangerously close to trolling the cold charts now & immediately jumping on anyone who doesn't share their admiration.

We do have some unusual synoptics at the moment & they are interesting. My comment about 16c in January, was merely pointing out another possible scenario, that could occur, about which these "born again" enthusiasts, would be considerably less enthusiastic had they occurred. Mild mush & Atlantic dross anyone?

[Thundery wintry showers]

I've certainly had experiences of my enthusiasm for snowy weather being eroded in the short-term, e.g. due to disruption or lying snow turning to sheet ice, but without exception it has always made a full and rapid recovery afterwards. Thus you might sometimes find me hoping for a temporary thaw, but my breaking point beyond which I would start thinking, "I'd like a mild and largely snowless winter next year", appears to be extremely high.

Re. 16C in January, for me it would depend on the accompanying weather conditions. If it was 16C accompanied by bright sunshine I have to say I'd get quite excited (though not quite as excited as with a sunshine-and-snow-showers type of setup) but it would be harder to build up enthusiasm for a grey breezy SW'ly with drizzle and a fohn effect. However you certainly wouldn't see me using terms like "dross" and "mush" in the model output thread, even if I personally felt that way about the weather.

[mushymanrob]

My life has been disrupted plenty due to snow, and it's ignorant of you to presume otherwise, but my love of snow is cannot be waned easily. It would take something truly exceptional or unpleasant for my love of snow to suddenly disappear. I have learnt that most types of weather I appreciate cause disruption for someone, somewhere, and I am sure the same holds true for everyone else on this forum. Let's be honest, if we are going to attack everyone for liking disruptive weather, this forum would die a death overnight, and it is no coincidence that people only attack other people for enjoying disruptive weather when that weather directly affects them. If a person with a hatred of heat attacked you or anyone else for enjoying heat because his elderly mother almost died in 2006, would you be okay with that?

ive lost over £650 this week due to the cold, my finances are up the swanny, that money would keep me in food for most of my inactive winter, isnt people liking / wanting cold insulting to people in my position?

Why should anyone apologise for chasing cold in Winter (or any other time)?

because the forums a weather forum for discussing what weather the charts are suggesting, not spot the cold/snow forum.

its totally misleading to the thousands of guests who view sites like this who look for more info then the media gives. the bias sucks. i have no prob with objective posts, i have no problem with excitement for snow when its there, on the charts, i do have a problem with reams of snow related bullshine. just trawl through the archives, see who said what, all these promises of snow, then compare what we actually got.

its all 'ifs' and 'buts', chasing which data set suits the agenda, ignore others, swap from one model as 'the best' to another because it shows what someone wants and it 'proves' their point..... but no matter how much ramping anyone does, nor how technical a post they create to justify their hopes.... nature will do what nature does. bias, unbalanced views based on parts of the available data are more often then not simply hot air, a waste of time. i really dont understand why genuine cold lovers would get sucked into the hype, the ramping, nor why genuine cold lovers would ramp or post biasedly.... it only leads to mass disappointment.

[frosty ground]

its totally misleading to the thousands of guests who view sites like this who look for more info then the media gives.

So what? These sites (Forums) are not here to give Guest accurate forecasts of what the weather will be like in a few days time....... They are set up for people to talk about the weather and guess what in winter when it’s cold people will look for cold, I suggest if your employment is affected by cold weather you don't go on a forum whinging about it, when the forum is a weather forum.

In summer people look for Heat and storms, In Autumn People look for Atlantic storms or late heat waves and in Spring people look for a bit of everything as is there right..... If you don't like it ignore it, it's not rocket science.

it only leads to mass disappointment.

Why would you care about other people's disappointment?

[Bobby]

ive lost over £650 this week due to the cold, my finances are up the swanny, that money would keep me in food for most of my inactive winter, isnt people liking / wanting cold insulting to people in my position?

because the forums a weather forum for discussing what weather the charts are suggesting, not spot the cold/snow forum.

its totally misleading to the thousands of guests who view sites like this who look for more info then the media gives. the bias sucks. i have no prob with objective posts, i have no problem with excitement for snow when its there, on the charts, i do have a problem with reams of snow related bullshine. just trawl through the archives, see who said what, all these promises of snow, then compare what we actually got.

its all 'ifs' and 'buts', chasing which data set suits the agenda, ignore others, swap from one model as 'the best' to another because it shows what someone wants and it 'proves' their point..... but no matter how much ramping anyone does, nor how technical a post they create to justify their hopes.... nature will do what nature does. bias, unbalanced views based on parts of the available data are more often then not simply hot air, a waste of time. i really dont understand why genuine cold lovers would get sucked into the hype, the ramping, nor why genuine cold lovers would ramp or post biasedly.... it only leads to mass disappointment.

Perhaps it would be a good idea in future to have two model threads over the winter, one that is solely for those looking for cold/snow like the current model thread has become and another for those who want to discuss the weather/models in general. All weather types interest me and others too but the model thread lately has become unusable for us as it's almost entirely about just cold and mentioning anything else makes you a leper it seems lol. Everyone should be happy then, fair I think? As seems futile trying to change the model thread as it is.

[LomondSnowstorm]

ive lost over £650 this week due to the cold, my finances are up the swanny, that money would keep me in food for most of my inactive winter, isnt people liking / wanting cold insulting to people in my position?

That's terrible, but since there's nothing any of us can do about whether it's cold or not I don't see why anyone cold ramping on a weather forum (and I agree about it getting overly hyped in the MT) should feel guilty about that. My house got flooded out when I was a child but I've never felt that anyone who happens to enjoy heavy rainfall was being disrespectful to me. Almost all weather enthusiasts like extremes of some kind, and extremes tend to damage or kill people sometimes because by definition these are rare events that people are not really geared up for or perhaps are even impossible to gear up for.

Enjoying a weather type doesn't mean enjoying the damage that sometimes comes with it.

[Aaron]

ive lost over £650 this week due to the cold, my finances are up the swanny, that money would keep me in food for most of my inactive winter, isnt people liking / wanting cold insulting to people in my position?

Not to me it isn't. I sympathise wholeheartedly, and I do not look for cold, snowy weather to begrudge you, but you cannot realistically expect people to change their likes and dislikes based on yourself and what is happening to you. Again, nobody on here is wishing you financial hardship, but we all hope for different things - I think it's rather insulting that you would use that to try and persuade people to change their preferences on a weather forum. Again, I refer back to my original point - tell the sons, daughters and grandchildren of the thousands of elderly people in 2003 who died of heat-related issues, similar in 2006, that you absolutely love heat, and cannot wait for a repeat of August 2003 or July 2006 - they may be sickened by it, but you will not change, will you? Of course not, and I wouldn't expect you to.

There is a desperate attempt to be objective and rational regarding preferences and opinions, I think you need to cooperate too. Nobody on this thread has objected to your hatred of cold or love of heat, so you should respect others and do the same for their love of cold and snow.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Aaron

[Thundery wintry showers]

Indeed, I do sympathise with a lot of what Mushy is saying, but the "people liking/wanting cold is insulting to people in my position" part is the one area where I sympathise more with the negative reaction that it gets.

The 1995 summer heat and drought caused some significant problems for various areas, especially relating to agriculture and water supply (the infamous Yorkshire Water fiasco for example), so it could be argued that those who wanted/enjoyed the hot dry sunny weather were being selfish, insulting etc. to those who were adversely affected. This would probably make a substantial majority of the population guilty, especially in northern Britain.

Earlier in the same year, we had a mild, wet and sunny winter, followed by a spring of frequent "switch-arounds" and some sharp late frosts- the perfect recipe for major crop damage- but overall, the summer drought caused the more problems. That's why I complain of hypocrisy and double standards when I am chided for welcoming a late cold snap by people who are hoping for a hot dry sunny summer. And I'm certainly very much with the view that there's no point in having to feel guilty about wanting/liking something that we have no control over.

But I can certainly understand the frustration of having to read through a lot of bias and value judgements in favour of types of weather that are leaving you out of pocket. I think we already have the "two model threads" idea, maybe the more technical thread is a bit too slow-moving for some (perhaps I should post in-depth analysis into there more often to help keep it rolling) but the advanced thread is partly intended to provide an escape-ism for those who want a discussion of what the models are showing with a minimum of bias and preferences.

Meanwhile the desire for warmth is starting to make its presence felt a bit more in the model output thread thanks to the models finally showing some significant signs of a warm-up from the south.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Thundery wintry showers