Changing Attitudes: Climate Change

[blizzard81]

 Wold Topper Well said. God-like complexes, absolutes and arrogance rolled into one. It's like a disease in its own right that has taken over the world unfortunately and not just with regards to this topic. Quite frankly it turns me off. 

[Methuselah]

 Wold Topper But there is no 'alternative articulate' argument, WT?

[WYorksWeather]

 Wold Topper It's a fair point.

Generally my response to alternative views is dependent on how the view is presented. I enjoy conversations with people who disagree and are interested in learning. If someone were to ask me: 'how do we know that the Earth isn't warming due to the Sun?' I can have an interesting discussion and explain why that isn't the case.

But if someone says (to paraphrase comments I've seen online before): 'we have this great big ball of fire in the sky called the Sun, I wonder why nobody ever considers that, oh wait that would mean they don't get their WEF/NWO funding?', well then that's going to get a slightly less kind response, because it's condescending, insulting, and conspiratorial.

Essentially one is open to engagement. The other one is an attack, and therefore tends to prompt a defensive response, with a barrage of rebuttals and counter-rebuttals, or even, if people are having a bad day, personal insults being thrown back and forth.

I wish we could have more conversations of the first type, and less of the second type.

[LetItSnow!]

 Wold Topper The only problem here is that a lot of the time the contrary opinions tends to be a bunch of denialist claptrap. Our understanding of the world changes every day and science is a beautiful ever-growing expanse of knowledge, yes, but there are also certain things that are fundamentally true. I wouldn't argue the existence of gravity for example. There are no doubt mechanisms we have yet to understand fully but I find it far more use to stick to the scientists rather than some 58 year old guy called Billy from Huddersfield claiming he's cracked it.

 

If there is a 58 year old from Huddersfield called Billy reading my comment, no offence is meant. 

[WYorksWeather]

 LetItSnow! I'm not from Huddersfield, but I'll take that as a personal insult on behalf of West Yorkshire.

Just kidding,

[Wold Topper]

 Methuselah only for the closed mind?

[Methuselah]

Global temperatures are rising and GHGs are responsible. It's been the same for 4.5 billion years. And it isn't going to change any time soon? 

[LetItSnow!]

9 hours ago, Wold Topper said:

This post was removed. BW.

 

9 hours ago, Methuselah said:

Global temperatures are rising and GHGs are responsible. It's been the same for 4.5 billion years. And it isn't going to change any time soon?

A great example of how these conversations instantly become inflammatory. I would argue in favour of Methuselah's view point to be fair. At this point, any contrary opinions are not considered scientific truth, either because they're false or haven't been discovered yet, so apart from some interesting chatter about "Hey, I found this cool paper. How does this hold up to science?", I dont really see a point arguing against scientific facts, in fact I see it as a waste of time since we're already burning up. And I criticise the opinion of AGW being a money making scam as I have noticed many denialist scams that intentionally misread facts to an audience who aren't checking for the real thing and automatically believe the authoritive voice that's telling them that. I think if we don't step in and really work toward a solution and get creative we'll soon see that a wrecked Earth isn't quite the money maker some people think it will be. I have to wonder to our leaders even have a clue what they're talking about at all. 

But back to the point, theories and new papers are exciting and the quest for knowledge is never-ending, but certain things are known facts. Why bother contesting the mechanics of the earth? And if recent history isn't enough to convince people that there's a problem then the next 10-20 years probably will. 

[Fen Wolf]

Can we agree that this is likely one of the wettest, if not the wettest winter on record for the UK?  
 

Just doesn’t seem to stop and i am assuming it’s because if El Nino & climate change causing a destabilisation of the jet stream and possibly the gulf stream eventually.  

[LetItSnow!]

I will also add that I myself fell victim (victim of my own ignorance) to those saviour/doom prophets of a mini ice age back in the mid 2010s when I was a teenager while searching at anything I could find that was contrary to mainstream opinion and while I would never have admitted to myself then it was totally because I didn't want to accept the truth, and many people don't, for many different reasons. People don't want to mourn the loss of snow days, think about crop failiures and cost increases, think about the fact that maybe 40C here won't be all that rare one day, think about the toll on human, plant and animal life - it is a thoroughly horrible thing to think about when you as one person have little power over the outcome, and it's why people desperately search for an answer to invalidate it. I pray God they come up with something that's actually true!  Unfortunately, it is a problem created by the big guys and it's a problem we're going to have to figure out a way to solve. And maybe something unforeseen will happen or be found that saves the day, I hope it does, but ultimately I believe it is a bigger priority to deal with the facts we have now so that we don't have to suffer more in the future. And also, not to age shame at all, but a large amount of that denialist claptrap comes from an older generation who knows they don't have to deal with the impacts, regardless whether they think we're gonna burn, freeze, drown or dry up. It's an uncertain future for my generation, my little brother's generation and so forth.

Edited February 25 by LetItSnow!

[WYorksWeather]

I really think this is poor actually. We talk a lot about changing attitudes, but nobody's attitude will be changed by being insulted, on either side of the debate. 

I've opened a new thread for climate change questions and answers. I hope it can be a place for people to have civil discussions with less of the constant back-and-forth sniping. If anyone wants to head over there and ask and answer questions, you're more than welcome. There are probably plenty of interesting discussion we can have if we can take the heat out of it.

[raz.org.rain]

My only real gripe with the climate change debate is that it almost always assumes a continuation of interglacial conditions, you very rarely encounter any serious discussion regarding the possibility of an ice age termination. 

[Arctic Hare]

 Fen Wolf I can't recall exactly where, but someone posted recently showing that for the Central England region (which actually includes East Anglia) this was indeed the wettest winter on record, with something like 150 years of data to compare with.

This is actually something that ties into the original subject of this thread. As people who've read me banging on about flooding will know, it's by far the biggest immediate issue facing the town where I live. Although we've had *bigger* floods in the past, I can't remember any winter when we've had *more* significant floods than the one we're just coming to the end of now. And in terms of short-term impact, those have an immediate impact that everyone can see, in a way a week longer of growing season won't unless you're a gardener or farmer.

My point is that I suspect flooding may be a bigger deal for many people in changing their opinions than temperature, since the whole "will we get to X °C rise in global temperature?" thing still feels a bit remote and vague. But if the main road through town is flooded several times a winter, that affects everyone living here, *right now*.

[Wold Topper]

 WYorksWeather i didn't come to start an argument, and i apologies to the thread if i come across like that, but i cannot abide stiffled debate through force of will and bias just because someone 'shouts' the loudest! Not aimed at you btw...

[WYorksWeather]

 Wold Topper I didn't take any offence to anything you said - and when it comes to CC I'm very happy to answer questions.

[ANYWEATHER]

Evening All. Anyone , interested in climate change data from the archives over 100 years ago please let let me know.  Thanks.  ☺

[WYorksWeather]

 ANYWEATHER Very much interested if you'd be open to a chat about the relevance / applicability of it as relevant to the modern warming?

[ANYWEATHER]

 WYorksWeather will do just message me plz..?!

[Metwatch]

1 hour ago, LetItSnow! said:

I will also add that I myself fell victim (victim of my own ignorance) to those saviour/doom prophets of a mini ice age back in the mid 2010s when I was a teenager while searching at anything I could find that was contrary to mainstream opinion and while I would never have admitted to myself then it was totally because I didn't want to accept the truth

Exactly the same here

Adapt 2030 youtube channel was my go to for the mini ice age "Grand Solar Minimum" updates back around 2016-2019. Good to have moved past from that, but does imply that very young people can be easily manipulated and fed in anything to then believe it!

Edited February 26 by Metwatch

[LetItSnow!]

 Metwatch Yes! I watched him too. I would urge people who still are followers of his and the like why the supposed global freeze keeps getting delayed. LOL.

[Blessed Weather]

Please folks - I've just had two mugs of morning tea whilst editing and/or removing posts that were clearly breaking forum guidelines and had been reported. This topic has the potential to bring about strong opinions on either side of the climate change argument; if the thread is going to work we need to keep discussions respectful and free of personal digs please. Thanks.

[Bypass]

We are living in a very unstable times in every sense of the words. There is massive destruction of infrastructure and property in Syria, Palestine and Ukraine, warfare exacerbates the increase in greehouse gasses. Dreadful to consider that these actions have the possibility to grow into a greater conflict with futher impacts on CC , even without the nuclear winter postulation.  

This winter has been very difficult to fore cast for the very expierienced  who inform us on this site and there are future unknowns. These rapid changes make for a very volatile future and make forecasting long range highly difficult. 

I watch with interest and trepidation.

[Methuselah]

 Metwatch I was an arch-sceptic until the mid-1990s when I studied climatology, and nothing opens the mind more than learning. Someone -- I can't recall who -- once said that the best defence against logic is ignorance. . . Because I don't understand string theory means that string theory is nonsense, right? 

So, now, I'm more interested in CC's likely effects than whether or not it's real. . . 

[Fen Wolf]

 Arctic Hare it’s depressing, cold & dark in the uk this season,  and was on the trains the other day and felt like we were going past mini seas & lakes with the extent of the flooding in fields and low lying areas.  Not looking good anyhow

[Derecho]

 Metwatch  I used to be a denier as well up until about 18 because I just found global warming too depressing and looked for arguments against the predictions.

Uni sorted that out for me but ironically trying to find holes in the CC argument is one of the things that really got me into studying weather and climate as a whole.