Universe Theory And the theory of life!

[BARRY]

your born to live,you live to die,you die to ? :lol:

[Claudia]

your born to live,you live to die,you die to ?

you die to ? ....... A fly lands on you lays some eggs and gets disturbed by a mammal and flys away, the mammal feeds for a while but moves on when full, the insects really start doing their job by feeding and aiding decomposition which feeds the sapling thats leaves blow in the breeze that carries the fly that layed the eggs to the bird catches it and feeds it to the chick in the nest in the tree that blows in the breeze that feeds on your decomposed body and the mammal that fed on your dead body pees up the tree, but its ok it misses and the hedgehog that sleeps in the hole in the roots and feeds on the inscets that decomposed you so as to nourish the tree gives the mammal fleas. But theres a bule sky with white puffy clouds that race in the breeze, birds are singing and the smell of grass is in the air so you dont mind. But you could live without those dame pigeons pooing in your branches though

Or you could just get cremated and be of no nutritional use to the environment and add to golbal warming Or go for the more traditional coffin

[Bobby]

Well, there's no point is there? No universal point anyway, people may see a personal point in life. Especially those who are religious.

[Gallow_glass]

your born to live,you live to die,you die to ?

Good points about the facts iof the Entire Meaning of life but im pretty much sure what happens!

Maybe its just me! did any one ever feel like jumping of a motorway bridge because there is no

over all point in working.learning breathing or anything for that matter!

not that im calling scientists stupid but i think that they are looking in the wrong places for the right answers!!

i think the key to life is the brain! some people take life and see it as an oppurtunity

some people see it as being there from religion or from what i call 'Being Literal'(sorry about spelling!)

as in to simple to clean!! what he says goes for me!

but we can only begin to advance in knowledge if we carry on making more generations

of humans ifve been looking on the internet and ive found in that almost every other or 1 year a discovery is made

either important or none important! as far as we know there is 'everything'

but we dont know till we look at our minds!!(funny)

i mean its Inhumain to open up GW head when hes Alive but thats the fun in it!

theres Cat scans MRI!

Today i was in my sceince lesson the night before while i was asleep thats unti thwe wind woke me!!=(

any way as i was saying i had a dream and it was me in my science lesson doodling than miss started to talk about lasers

then the wind picked up and the room got darker today, miss started to talk about lasers

then the wind picked up and the room got darker ?? strange but when id realised this had occuered in my dreams????

[Claudia]

i mean its Inhumain to open up GW head when hes Alive but thats the fun in it!

theres Cat scans MRI!

I would love to understand the inner working of the male mind count me in. Ive got jump leads we could use to stimualte the brain, now what to open the scull with......anyone got a chainsaw ?

"Today i was in my sceince lesson the night before while i was asleep thats unti thwe wind woke me!!=(

any way as i was saying i had a dream and it was me in my science lesson doodling than miss started to talk about lasers

then the wind picked up and the room got darker today, miss started to talk about lasers

then the wind picked up and the room got darker ?? strange but when id realised this had occuered in my dreams????"

Sounds like what wolfie was talking about, the problem I and I would think most people would have is if we for whatever reason know what the future holds then what is the point of living ? When people loose their sole mate sometimes they give up the will to live. I think if we knew what was going to happen to us especally if it is going to be bad then what would be the point in living ? Humans live for new experiences drugs, travel, extream sports....... knowing the future would be like watching the longest film you have ever seem over again and it might not have been that good in the first place.

[Gray-Wolf]

Mens heads???? Well I have my own notions about that one!!! From my own personal experience (and through my knowing of others) many males fall foul to their testosterone drives.

This can leave them having a very fragmented emotional existance in their early adult life as they try and make sense of behavours they do not seem to control well. Jealousy, agression, over competativeness, control, depression. All of these 'factors' seem to 'drive' many young males and leave them trying to over sophisticate a very base 'drive'.

Only in later life, when the hormone levels drop off (or the person has learnt to moderate their behaviours ),can they really appreciate what a plonk they were/appeared in their early adult life.

Sadly ,many men 'harm' partners in early adult life by there 'wrong' behaviours, mainly by emotionally distressing them to the point where they have to end the relationship.

[Claudia]

Mens heads???? Well I have my own notions about that one!!! From my own personal experience (and through my knowing of others) many males fall foul to their testosterone drives.

This can leave them having a very fragmented emotional existance in their early adult life as they try and make sense of behavours they do not seem to control well. Jealousy, agression, over competativeness, control, depression. All of these 'factors' seem to 'drive' many young males and leave them trying to over sophisticate a very base 'drive'.

Only in later life, when the hormone levels drop off (or the person has learnt to moderate their behaviours ),can they really appreciate what a plonk they were/appeared in their early adult life.

Sadly ,many men 'harm' partners in early adult life by there 'wrong' behaviours, mainly by emotionally distressing them to the point where they have to end the relationship.

Wow, I was talking about them being incapable of expressing their feelings. See what you have done is a response based on facts/therorys but to get how something makes them feel is another matter. Oh and I dont think men ever learn not to fall foul of their testosterone drives, I mean you can make your minds up on a potential mate in a few seconds, now thats not being to pickie is it ?

[Gray-Wolf]

So there's the nub. Are men acting or reacting? Do they try and make sense of their emotional response a Milli second after they act or do they fully control their actions? When acting out their baser drives are they 'driven' into behaviours or do they 'choose' there behaviours?

Women do not get off scott free here as they are also 'driven' by 2 differing 'drives', one of which is proven to be sexually motivated. Around ovulation women present themselves in an 'alluring' way (so tests on 'dress' have shown......women show more flesh around ovulation) and may end up coupling with a man and then ,when they draw back from that hormonal state, realising what they have done and ditch him (one night stand syndrome).

The ebb and flow between the two hormonal extremes allow women a self view men do not get (until later in life when they 'calm down') which allows them to better understand the person they are (on the whole).

[Claudia]

Women look for a mate that can provide, protect and stay around, given the opportunity for better genes they will take it. Men look for a female that will nurture, protect, provide and be loyal they will mate at any given opportunity because their role only lasts a few seconds compared to a female who commits months and the purpose of life is to carry your genes to the next generation. However the two form a 'relationship' because their genes have a better chance of survival with both parents. It is only because of peer pressure and that there is more emphasis on having a job and lesure time that women have one night stands.

What age are you saying men 'calm down' ? When they are reaching for the viagra ? And it does not explain why men cant talk about their emotions ! Are you saying my cave man would go out a hunting, trip and graze his knee while running away from a preditor and he wouldnt come home empty handed, hurt pride and want me to kiss it better !?

[Gray-Wolf]

Women look for a mate that can provide, protect and stay around, given the opportunity for better genes they will take it. Men look for a female that will nurture, protect, provide and be loyal they will mate at any given opportunity because their role only lasts a few seconds compared to a female who commits months and the purpose of life is to carry your genes to the next generation. However the two form a 'relationship' because their genes have a better chance of survival with both parents. It is only because of peer pressure and that there is more emphasis on having a job and leisure time that women have one night stands.

What age are you saying men 'calm down' ? When they are reaching for the Viagra ? And it does not explain why men cant talk about their emotions ! Are you saying my cave man would go out a hunting, trip and graze his knee while running away from a predator and he wouldn't come home empty handed, hurt pride and want me to kiss it better !?

We've utilised caves for a long time and our 'practices' over that period have changed. Once we'd have shared more primate practices of Alpha male 'covering' all the receptive females with extra genes being added to the gene pool by 'sneaky couplings' by lower ranked males when Alpha wasn't watching. Women would also have an Alpha Female but she was just first amongst equals in reality as gathering/nurturing would have been shared amongst the group.

Around 70,000yrs ago our gene pool undergoes a 'pinch' (probably dropped to only a few thousand breeding pairs) whilst our species was still solely in Africa (cuper volcanic eruption around that time).

It is postulated that 'social structure' underwent a change and the 'Alpha males' were either murdered or ousted by the group as lower males grouped together and faced down the 'threat'. This didn't happen with Alpha female.

The 'nature ' of Alpha maleism' remains and men still (in todays society) try to attain 'alpha male status' but not in the true sense of the word. Lower males never lost the taste for 'sneaky coupling/multiple partners' as the 'nurture structures' were still there to deal with childcare.

And so here we are. Our drives are no different to our ancestors but we 'socialise' them differently.

It strikes me that we are in need of another 'natural disaster' to allow us to undergo another 'social revolution' (the removal of materialism/measurement by wealth) but I am lost to find the 'means' of that human disaster.........not!

[Claudia]

Around 70,000yrs ago our gene pool undergoes a 'pinch' (probably dropped to only a few thousand breeding pairs) whilst our species was still solely in Africa (cuper volcanic eruption around that time).

It strikes me that we are in need of another 'natural disaster' to allow us to undergo another 'social revolution' (the removal of materialism/measurement by wealth) but I am lost to find the 'means' of that human disaster.........not!

I knew we are parisites but that is some comeback + with technology that is some advancement.

Axelrod 1984 Tit-for-tat and the evolution of cooperation. Why nice guys could finish first. 8P

Oh I thought you would know the answer to men not being able to talk about emotions Ok so what about disclosure in general then. What makes someone disclose personal information/thoughts ? I dont mean wood splints under the nails or stress positions or white noise :lol: or drug enduced states :lol: lets stick to the legal ones :lol: . Ok so I can think of a few, self disclosure, giving out personal information is supposed to make the other person reciprocate. Quick firing of questions, but thats more interigation, not exactly socially polite. Any other sugestions :lol:

[Gray-Wolf]

I knew we are parisites but that is some comeback + with technology that is some advancement.

Axelrod 1984 Tit-for-tat and the evolution of cooperation. Why nice guys could finish first. 8P

Oh I thought you would know the answer to men not being able to talk about emotions Ok so what about disclosure in general then. What makes someone disclose personal information/thoughts ? I dont mean wood splints under the nails or stress positions or white noise or drug enduced states lets stick to the legal ones . Ok so I can think of a few, self disclosure, giving out personal information is supposed to make the other person reciprocate. Quick firing of questions, but thats more interigation, not exactly socially polite. Any other sugestions

In our society boys are taught (at their mothers knee) to be 'brave little soldiers' or not to be a 'big girl' so not only do they quickly learn not to cry (at anything other than personal injuries) but also to avoid mental anguish that could lead them to cry.

Basically they are not 'taught to emote (by their parents) but to withhold (analy retentive) from anything painful. Whilst socialising boys are not 'programmed' to be emotional (boys don't 'hold hands' or hug lots) but to be emotionally self sufficient.

Sadly most boys are taught to be boys by girls (their mums) so what chance do they stand? Girls are taught to be girls by a girl and you can see how that turns out. Behind every ruined man is a woman.....Mum.

[parmenides3]

I am sure that everyone who reads this thread will be delighted to know that it is possible to have (and know) a meaning for existence, for our existence, which is not dependent on religion, faith or mysticism. This bit took me thirty-odd years to find out & work out. I am currently trying to work out the implications of this in terms of what we do in our lives and how to be good, happy and have a purpose.

:)P

[Claudia]

I am currently trying to work out the implications of this in terms of what we do in our lives and how to be good, happy and have a purpose.

:)P

Alain De Botton has some very good books on the subject. If you look them up on Amazon he gets rav reviews in his love section........from females

Grey Wolf, I see you have read a few Freud books !

Grey Wolf "Sadly most boys are taught to be boys by girls (their mums) so what chance do they stand? Girls are taught to be girls by a girl and you can see how that turns out. Behind every ruined man is a woman.....Mum"

So when they say to choose a husband that loves his Mum, what they mean is you will be able to get him to do what ever you want.

OK Females talk about crap, things in life that dont matter,pointless gossip,hair. Men talk about things of substance, the weather, news, opinions of life. But a women will see a social problem and resolve it by talking, men seem to think it they will wake up one day and it will have resolved itself !? Oh I forgot about the male strop part. I dont get it, whats "mummys boy" about resolving a situation by having an adult discusion instead of going in a strop, females slove problems like this all the time without being in floods of tears !

[Gray-Wolf]

I'm not a big Freud fan. A middle classed coke head (who got some of his friends hopelessly addicted to it because of his belief that it was the next step in human evolution) with a perchant for screwed up Austrian middle classed ladies is not my cup of tea!! (his protégé Jung is another matter for another day!) I can't argue against some of the 'structures' he uses in his discussions on behavioral motivations though (Id,Ego,Superego) as they can be useful tools in breaking down behaviours.

My misogynistic views are from my own observations on life (Gap year/s spent pulling apart fighting offices full of disheartened women). So many times I'd hear days upon days of complaints over partners and husbands only to watch them 'carry' their sons in a very undevelopmental way!! Why were female children held up as good because they tidied rooms/cooked /washed yet boy children left to be 'footballers/telly addicts' without any 'domestic side to their living?

Because of their early 'tutoring' grown men with difficulties 'emoting' also have problems with children beyond infancy as they have difficulties aiding in the child's 'emotional development' (though are very accomplished at 'play') and so seem glad to only have 90mins a day of 'full on fun' (and no disciplining/teaching/emoting) before bedtime. The child is happy to have fun with dad (quality not quantity....as Piaget would have it) but what happens over holiday time? how does Papa do then? does he find a million excuses to disappear? glad to be the driver, blame mum for their behaviours?

Men and women are different. The chemical balances within them as they develop are different (men are runty until the end of junior school, the girls are bigger!) Boys have a better spacial awareness, better throwing/running/catching skills. If the brain really is a fragmented thing and not a glorious total assembly (left lobe/right lobe) then we could look here to see why the more 'emotional' side is left to whither as the 'practical side' flourishes. Women are almost epileptic in their lobal swapping and switching (why they believe they can multitask?) in a way that men aren't. Do men 'stick' in their left lobe to improve physical skills whilst neglecting their right lobe? Could they be tutored into being different, into being more bi-lobal? I'd say yes and so we come full circle to our society that leaves women doing a mans job (helping their 'boy' develop during his formative period) and leaving them a very practical,logical beast but displaying child like emotional responses (because they stopped emotionaly developing then) well into adult life. Why do they treat their women as possessions when other males are around (to keep them from being nabbed by another 'Alpha')? can they not see that their partners are there because they wish to be and not because he has 'herded' her into his domain?

[parmenides3]

Alain De Botton has some very good books on the subject. If you look them up on Amazon he gets rav reviews in his love section........from females

Thank you for your reply. I know de Botton (have met him); he didn't cut the mustard for me, but I'm a bit out of date, so will reserve judgement on his recent ideas. At the moment, I'm working through Levinas & existential phenomenological writers - that's my 'baseline'.

From my studies in the Philosophy of Woman (Warwick, 1980's), de Beauvoir, Kristeva & Irigaray stand out as key studies. I'd also say Alberto Moravia's fiction, and also possibly Harlan Ellison's sci-fi, are worth a look. On gender & difference, 'Second Sex' is wihtout doubt the seminal work.

Enjoying your discussions.

:)P

[Claudia]

Because of their early 'tutoring' grown men with difficulties 'emoting' also have problems with children beyond infancy as they have difficulties aiding in the child's 'emotional development' (though are very accomplished at 'play') and so seem glad to only have 90mins a day of 'full on fun' (and no disciplining/teaching/emoting) before bedtime. The child is happy to have fun with dad (quality not quantity....as Piaget would have it) but what happens over holiday time? how does Papa do then? does he find a million excuses to disappear? glad to be the driver, blame mum for their behaviours?

This rings some bells. So someone like this, if they were capable of speaking to someone who could be described as a Mother figure (although not his Mother) would this mean there is potential for communication with a potental partner or not ? If there is chance for communtcation but this is not happening what would be the likley problem, trust, insecurity....?

I dont normally like philosophy because its more someones opinions, I like science, we did this and got these results. Alain De Botton has covered subjects that interest me peoples need for status, materialism, travel, love and happiness. I dont understand the reviews on Amazon though, if you read Essays In Love he fully expresses his emotions as he goes through his relationships but in actual he does not seem to interact with his girlfriends any differently. Maybe I am strange but I would go near him. Thanks for the book recomendations I will look into them.

[parmenides3]

If you're looking to understand human relationships, Philosophers probably don't score highly (at least, not on everyday matters). However, one of the more recent theories - existential phenomenology - works from the basic principle that meaning of existence itself can only be derived from being with others (or 'for' others). There is a developing field in psychotherapy which makes use of many of the ideas that this inspires; it is a difficult area to understand (and not for the 'beginner' in reading philosophy), but, for me, it works at a level so much deeper and more satisfying than any other idea I have come across that I thought it deserved a mention.

In the writings of Levinas, you come across the question of female-male communication. Put simply, the biggest obstacle to truth/communication is the attitude to others that the individual brings to the face-to-face encounter. Most interactions revolve around establishing a 'power dynamic' between two people where one or both attempts to dominate/control/take possession of the meaning of the other's existence. This is where the source of much of the problem between genders (and between people) lies.

:)P

Edited March 12, 2007 by parmenides3

[Claudia]

Read feminism, really. I dont mind this

Why do they treat their women as possessions when other males are around (to keep them from being nabbed by another 'Alpha')? can they not see that their partners are there because they wish to be and not because he has 'herded' her into his domain?

I dont belive in changing someone to be what you want them to be. I love the things that I do and know it would make me unhappy to give them up and as I dont meet people every day that enjoy the same things as me. I dont mind being a "possession" its nice to have the quiet, but there is a point that its unhealthy. I dont think wanting to share lives, live in harmony and make each other happy (which seems lacking in todays society) comes down to femimism, I would have thought it was healthy ? It seems to me that people are busy keeping up with the Jones, everything has to be bigger, better, more exciting than the last thing they did/had. What happened to the little pleasures in life ?

In the writings of Levinas, you come across the question of female-male communication. Put simply, the biggest obstacle to truth/communication is the attitude to others that the individual brings to the face-to-face encounter. Most interactions revolve around establishing a 'power dynamic' between two people where one or both attempts to dominate/control/take possession of the meaning of the other's existence. This is where the source of much of the problem between genders (and between people) lies.

:)P

Oooh interesting, I will have to look this up thanks

[parmenides3]

This is as good a place to start as any: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_L%C3%A9vinas

There are some good external links, too. The language is not 'normal', but it is understandable, most of the time.

:)P

[Claudia]

Give me psychology any day ! I realise you can still have a philisophical discussion about the various results but I like the structure and logic that science brings. The exception being R D Lang The Divided Self, only read half as you can sum up a hole page in a sentence.

I am sure that everyone who reads this thread will be delighted to know that it is possible to have (and know) a meaning for existence, for our existence, which is not dependent on religion, faith or mysticism. This bit took me thirty-odd years to find out & work out. I am currently trying to work out the implications of this in terms of what we do in our lives and how to be good, happy and have a purpose.

:)P

Why does our life have to have a purpose ? It is natural for humans to question life and our existance but why do we think we are so important to have a purpose ?

[parmenides3]

Give me psychology any day ! I realise you can still have a philisophical discussion about the various results but I like the structure and logic that science brings. The exception being R D Lang The Divided Self, only read half as you can sum up a hole page in a sentence.

Why does our life have to have a purpose ? It is natural for humans to question life and our existance but why do we think we are so important to have a purpose ?

I don't know. Perhaps it doesn't have to. I can get as far as the meaning of existence, but it excludes intentionality from its definition. When I speak of purpose, I am not suggesting 'destiny' or anything like that. It seems more likely to me that 'purpose' is going to relate to direction, place and probably narrative (style). I suppose we look for a purpose because it allows us to place the decisions we make (or fail to make) into the context of a meta-narrative in which we are the central protagonist. Whether we are right to do this (is it creating a personal truth or denying truth through fictionalisation?) is another question.

Psychology is a fascinating area, but the diversity of views and the apparent contradictions between many of the 'areas' (behavioural, cognitive, etc..) make it extremely hard to even get a decent hook on the problems. I also think some of the basic tenets of some psychology theories are rather dodgy. For me, too much of it is not scientific enough; isn't that an irony?

:)P

[Gray-Wolf]

With no great 'goal' for humanity to be collectively moving towards any meaning must be a 'localised' thing. If not the 'selfish gene' then what? a human construct to give meaning? Religion? family? nursing humanity itself? offsetting humanities impacts?

To me it breaks down into a few possibilties, 'hedonistic pursuits' , (the exporation of the 'sensual experience of living') are limited by age so only a 'temporary reason' (unless we move towards compulsary deletion at 40.....a bit too 'Logans' for me)

Procreation and investment into the offspring (again limited to when they mature and become fully independant)

The service of others (partners, freinds,community)

I could join the last 2 into my personal meaning for life (but then I lived the first for a while too) so maybe most lives are a collaboration of all the above (with chid rearing being an 'option').

So maybe the meaning of life is quite transient through life changing as we age and develop. As our experience/age allows a 'clearer picture' of our own understanding of 'why' we are here then the way we express it through our living also alters.

At times it is easy to envy those who lived through crucial periods in history as the events gave rise to meanings that people could ally themselves too, maybe climate change is our new 'calling' that will enable many to bring new 'meaning' into their lives.

[Claudia]

Psychology is a fascinating area, but the diversity of views and the apparent contradictions between many of the 'areas' (behavioural, cognitive, etc..) make it extremely hard to even get a decent hook on the problems. I also think some of the basic tenets of some psychology theories are rather dodgy. For me, too much of it is not scientific enough; isn't that an irony?

:)P

We are all good at different things, this is why the human race has been able to advance to this extent. I like the fact that with psychology they explain the study, subjects etc with this information I can come to my own conclusion as to how valuable this information is to me. I find that philosophy lacks any reference and in some cases has even been one persons opinion alone, their are however philosiphers how draw their conclusions on reliable evidence and refer to this in their thoughts, I still perfer to gain knowledge from the horses mouth where I am provided with all the facts. Things like being able to slice the top off someones head and see the effects that placing an electric current has on the person amazes me, someone can stand in a public place with a non discript uniform on and ask people walking past to walk all the way round a banana instead of walking in a straight line and they do ( do you ever question your doctor ? ) these things fasinate me and you dont get them from philosohy. As for being dodgy, as with anything with life some stuff you like other stuff you dont and you make up your mind how to spend your life based on this. For every study that say we did this and this happened which proves this, there is always someone else that says well we did this and that didnt happen and as I enjoy research I enjoy trying to decide who I agree with. I think you might be in the self help section though, if this is the case I strongly sugest you put the book down and RUN

[Claudia]

With no great 'goal' for humanity to be collectively moving towards any meaning must be a 'localised' thing. If not the 'selfish gene' then what? a human construct to give meaning? Religion? family? nursing humanity itself? offsetting humanities impacts?

To me it breaks down into a few possibilties, 'hedonistic pursuits' , (the exporation of the 'sensual experience of living') are limited by age so only a 'temporary reason' (unless we move towards compulsary deletion at 40.....a bit too 'Logans' for me)

Procreation and investment into the offspring (again limited to when they mature and become fully independant)

The service of others (partners, freinds,community)

I could join the last 2 into my personal meaning for life (but then I lived the first for a while too) so maybe most lives are a collaboration of all the above (with chid rearing being an 'option').

So maybe the meaning of life is quite transient through life changing as we age and develop. As our experience/age allows a 'clearer picture' of our own understanding of 'why' we are here then the way we express it through our living also alters.

At times it is easy to envy those who lived through crucial periods in history as the events gave rise to meanings that people could ally themselves too, maybe climate change is our new 'calling' that will enable many to bring new 'meaning' into their lives.

I couldnt help but notice you missed a meaning for life off your personal tick chart - your heart beats and your lungs inflate and deflate, :cray:or to put it another way you just exist.

I fully agree with life being transient, youu never know what will happen next.

I would have loved to live in any era with dinasors, hunt, gather and procreate, maybe a bit of cave painting. I wish I had been born earlier though the way technology is going, surveillance, no where to roam,terrorism,fighting for rights,sueing at the drop of a hat.............its not natural to live like this, all the things I enjoy most are from cave days maybe im just simple minded :lol: