Snow Patches Surviving on Scottish Mountains

[Norrance]

Im on holiday near aberfeldy and i saw a dusting on ben lawers yesterday. We went up to glencoe too and there was a dusting on a few hills up there. We did catch a glimpse of a mountain further north with a lot of snow on which could have been ben nevis but by the time we got there it was covered in cloud as usual. On monday we could see some snow patches looking north into the cairngorms from the linn of dee near braemar which looked fairly deep. Ill hopefully have a few pics posted this weekend.

That was the area I was brought up in and the view from my bedroom window took in the Lawers range and also the Glenlyon hills. The family home is still there. I used to look out for the early snows on the nearby hills and also kept track of the visible snow patches through to the Summer, an interest I have kept to this day. I did a bit of hillwalking when younger and also became a very keen skier so that my interest in lying snow actually increased.

I was lucky to be brought up there as in the late seventies to the late eighties even the valley bottoms in the Aberfeldy / Pitlochry areas averaged 40 snow lying days per Winter with 1979 being the best with 70 days. [Faskally met o station at 94 mtrs asl near Pitlochry confirmed these figures]. Sadly not so much snow now but still a good bit better than near the coast with last Winter being a good example.

Anyway I hope you enjoy your holiday in the area. The woodland colours can be spectacular at this time of year if you get lucky.

Sorry for wandering a bit off topic.

[multi cellular thunderstorm]

That was the area I was brought up in and the view from my bedroom window took in the Lawers range and also the Glenlyon hills. The family home is still there. I used to look out for the early snows on the nearby hills and also kept track of the visible snow patches through to the Summer, an interest I have kept to this day. I did a bit of hillwalking when younger and also became a very keen skier so that my interest in lying snow actually increased.

I was lucky to be brought up there as in the late seventies to the late eighties even the valley bottoms in the Aberfeldy / Pitlochry areas averaged 40 snow lying days per Winter with 1979 being the best with 70 days. [Faskally met o station at 94 mtrs asl near Pitlochry confirmed these figures]. Sadly not so much snow now but still a good bit better than near the coast with last Winter being a good example.

Anyway I hope you enjoy your holiday in the area. The woodland colours can be spectacular at this time of year if you get lucky.

Sorry for wandering a bit off topic.

Back from holiday now :o

Your very lucky to have been brought up in that area, it's amazing, I would love to live there one day.

We stayed near Weem, next to Castle Menzies. Weather was very good, better than forecast most days, there was only Tuesday we didn't see sun.

The colours were nice, but another couple of weeks and they would probably be at their peak, but with the winds coming maybe I was there at the best time before they get blown off. Best places for the colours were the Birks of Aberfeldy, and Killiecrankie. My favourite spot along the river at Kenmore was still quite green.

Looks like after this wind there's a chance of more snow on the mountains next week

I'll be posting some photos in the next few days, about 700 to sort through.

[firefly]

Took a trip up Aonach Mor and Aonach Beag yesterday to have a look at what was left. Reports had come through that Aonach Mor had gone (that is, not visible from below). Also, it had been a few weeks since anyone had reported on Aonach Beag.

Firstly, Aonach Mor has almost gone! Still a tiny patch remaining at Pro Talus (see here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57608159083500/ click on the "All Sizes" tag at the top of the photograph to get a larger version, by-the-way). The tiny patch of new snow in this photograph is visible to the right of the old snow.

I estimate the size of this tiny patch to be around 2m long, so there's very little chance it will survive, unless we get a dump in the next couple of days. This patch sits in the Pro Talus hollow, so is invisible from below. Very glad that I ventured up there, as it gives a more accurate melt date.

No sign at all of the two patches from last year: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57608159083500/

Aonach Beag, however, is a certainty to survive. Given all the melting that happened in July and August I was fearful for its survival. No fear now! The patch seems to have shrunk little in the last month. Comparing it to snowpatch95's picture from 22nd September http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/file.php?2,file=4037, it has lost little of its length and width: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57608159083500/

Depth in the middle somwhere around the 3m mark, with a nice 2m+ bergschrund at the side: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57608159083500/

A few more photos on my Flickr account can be viewed here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28183399@N03/...57608159083500/

A very interesting thing happened when I was photographing the patch on Aonach Beag, and may go a way to explaining why this spot gathers so much snow. Just as I was taking the last snap, it started snowing quite heavily. It seemed to be getting whipped down from above the cliff-face. This was unusual as the temperature was too high at this patch for snow (around 6 celcius). It was as if the snow was being forced down from above so quickly that it didn't have time to melt. Perhaps this happens to a much greater extent in winter, explaining the volumes of snow that accumulate there?

[firefly]

Thanks to coaster from Winterhighland (and here!) for a sterling effort in getting up to Observatory Gully yesterday in tricky conditions. Point 5 gully still hanging in there (amazingly), and the main Obs. Gully patch a fair size (16m x 15m).

This makes the total number of extant patches at 9:

1) 3 at Garbh Choire Mhor on Braeriach

2) 1 at Garbh Usige Beag on Ben Macdui

3) 3 at Observatory Gully/Point 5 gully on Ben Nevis

4) 1 at Aonach Beag (the largest by far, despite its altitude of 3100ft)

5) 1 at protalus on Aonach Mor (this is tiny, and will vanish if there's much of a thaw)

In my opinion (and this is just my opinion), 4 are certainties to survive, 2 are very probable, 2 are touch and go, with 1 being critical.

If anyone has any specific queries on size etc then ask away!

[JRMcLeod]

That photo showing the depth of the snow is really impressive...

[Norrance]

I suspect that there will be quite a bit of thawing [at least of the new snow] today and again perhaps on Saturday but looking at the charts below it looks pretty good from Sunday for some substantial snow.

http://meteonet.nl/aktueel/brackall.htm

[DR Hosking]

Firefly,

Given the forecast for next week of sub zero temperatures for the highlands, even in the daytime and substancial snow forecast, it looks to me like by this time next week we will have had the first lasting snow and as such could say that these patches have lasted? Or is it too early to count our chickens on that front?

[Norrance]

Firefly

Can I also ask a question? If G.U.B. on Macdui survives would it be fair to say that it is the only "natural" patch to survive.

i.e. The rest lie in avalanche tracks at the bottom of cliffs / gullies. I think I have seen you mention something of this elsewhere?

Nor.

[firefly]

Firefly,

Given the forecast for next week of sub zero temperatures for the highlands, even in the daytime and substancial snow forecast, it looks to me like by this time next week we will have had the first lasting snow and as such could say that these patches have lasted? Or is it too early to count our chickens on that front?

Too early yet, I'm afraid. The snow that fell at Garbh Choire Mhor on the 1st October appears to be the lasting snow there, but not so for the other sites. The lasting snows didn't arrive until the 5th November last year in the Cairngorms, and a couple of weeks later for the west, so more thawing is possible. The next 36-hours should be very interesting, as 2 patches are tiny and may not last the weekend.

[firefly]

Can I also ask a question? If G.U.B. on Macdui survives would it be fair to say that it is the only "natural" patch to survive.

i.e. The rest lie in avalanche tracks at the bottom of cliffs / gullies. I think I have seen you mention something of this elsewhere?

If it survives! I've attached a picture taken yesterday that shows GUBeag in its death throes.

As for the point you make about "natural" patch: I'm not sure one can say that. Certainly it's more exposed to the elements than the other long-lying patches, having no large cliff face to shelter it. It certainly doesn't receive much in the way of avalanche debris either. All I'll say is that it is certainly a more naturally open snow patch then any other still extant.

[Cookie]

thanks for the great updates mate, just had a read through

[DR Hosking]

looks like there should be plenty of lasting snow after today! http://www.winterhighland.info/testcam/

[londonsnow]

looks like there should be plenty of lasting snow after today! http://www.winterhighland.info/testcam/

indeed.more a case of surviving green/brown patches today!!!

[Norrance]

Hi

The Cairngorms at least have caught a good covering of new snow and any Patches that made it to last week must be well covered now and unlikely to thaw.

Not so sure how much fell across in the Nevis range so any feedback on survivals.

1. Is there enough new snow in the West to say that the remaining patches will survive a thaw?

2. Can anyone confirm if the GUB patch on Macdui made it through to the new snow?

Firefly?

[scott_anthony_glasgow]

Hi

The Cairngorms at least have caught a good covering of new snow and any Patches that made it to last week must be well covered now and unlikely to thaw.

Not so sure how much fell across in the Nevis range so any feedback on survivals.

1. Is there enough new snow in the West to say that the remaining patches will survive a thaw?

2. Can anyone confirm if the GUB patch on Macdui made it through to the new snow?

Firefly?

Hi Norrance I was up Ben Nevis on Friday there,( See photography section for pictures) Plently of snow there with some really deep drifts!So I would see any patches will almost certainly have survived!Cheers

Scott

[Norrance]

Hi Norrance I was up Ben Nevis on Friday there,( See photography section for pictures) Plently of snow there with some really deep drifts!So I would see any patches will almost certainly have survived!Cheers

Scott

Thanks for that Scott.

Cheers

Nor.

[Backtrack]

If these patches survive all year will that be the first ever time they have done it due to the early October snows topping them up?

SS

[James M]

I'm not sure of the average figures, but I think some patches survive most years and last year for example there were 9, so certainly not the first time ever.

[Backtrack]

I'm not sure of the average figures, but I think some patches survive most years and last year for example there were 9, so certainly not the first time ever.

Wow must be pretty amazing because the temperatures are definatly not a 0c all year round, They must be at some depth because they will take some melting them things

SS

[Norrance]

I'm not sure of the average figures, but I think some patches survive most years and last year for example there were 9, so certainly not the first time ever.

In the twentieth century I think that there were only 4 or so years that none survived. The most enduring are those on Braeriach in the Cairgorms. In many years the first lasting snows of the Winter do arrive by / in November.

In 2000 I believe that over 40 snow patches survived but there have been a couple of years since that have had none. It looks like 9 will make it again this year unless there is a major thaw.

One question. If patches survive for successive years is it really snow from the previous year that survives through at the bottom?

[firefly]

Sorry, been away for a few days and didn't see this...

1. Is there enough new snow in the West to say that the remaining patches will survive a thaw?

2. Can anyone confirm if the GUB patch on Macdui made it through to the new snow?

1. Very probably. The Nevis patches (3-off) and protalus at Aonach Mor would have received a good top up during the last snow (here's a picture from the 2nd November which shows deep wreaths). With more snow forecast, it's looking good for these ones. The Aonach Beag one was never in doubt, and is (again) Scotland's largest (measuring 55m long on the 18th October).

2. Yes, though not by much. By the time the new snows arrive Garbh Uisge Beag patch was tiny (couple of metres at the most). The new snows (lasting) snows arrived just in the nick of time. The photographs at the bottom show the position of them before and after the new snows.

If these patches survive all year will that be the first ever time they have done it due to the early October snows topping them up?

Not at all. October snows are not unusual. In 1976 the lasting snows arrived in early September. This is exceptional, but lasting October snows are not uncommon.

Wow must be pretty amazing because the temperatures are definatly not a 0c all year round, They must be at some depth because they will take some melting them things

SS

The depth of snow at Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach, and Observatory Gully on Ben Nevis can only be guessed at. Put it this way, I visited Observatory Gully on the 23th August and, after a long slog to get there, was confronted by a 30ft+ depth snow patch. You can see all the photographs from that trip here.

In the twentieth century I think that there were only 4 or so years that none survived. The most enduring are those on Braeriach in the Cairgorms. In many years the first lasting snows of the Winter do arrive by / in November.

In 2000 I believe that over 40 snow patches survived but there have been a couple of years since that have had none. It looks like 9 will make it again this year unless there is a major thaw.

One question. If patches survive for successive years is it really snow from the previous year that survives through at the bottom?

Correct. 2003 & 2006 failed to produce any lasting patches. Very unusual to have 2 in such close proximity.

To answer your last question: it's not really calculated like that. The only criterium is that snow survives: be it 1, 2 or 10-years old. It doesn't matter. In 1996, the snow at Garbh Choire Mhor was (I think) around 20-years old when it did go.

Edited November 8, 2008 by firefly

[osmposm]

As always, Firefly, thank you for taking the time to give us your hugely informative posts on this inexplicably fascinating subject!

In contrast to the complete guff so many of us post on Netweather, it is a joy to read facts and opinions based on intimate knowledge (frequently gathered the hard way), with the added bonus of elegant but succinct language, and brilliant photographs. The contrasting pair of pics of Garbh Uisge Beag at the bottom are as good as it gets in terms of relevant and revealing imagery.

[firefly]

Thanks very much.

I write about it because I enjoy the subject matter, and I know that people appreciate being told what's going on in those long-way-off Scottish mountains!

I'm glad that there's been interest in this again, and I'll keep everyone up-to-date with the final figures when they're finalised.

Cheers.

[Norrance]

I would just like to add my thanks to that of Osmposm. It has always been something that is of interest to me.

Regards

Nor.

[firefly]

The general consensus is that (barring a thaw of biblical proportions) all "old" snow in the Cairngorms and Nevis area has a sufficient depth as to keep them safe for another year.

So... this year's survivals are (you're getting this information 6-months before the Royal Meteorological Society are getting it!):

(Name, mountain, grid reference and approximate height above sea-level)

1. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Sphinx" patch) NN940980 - ~3700ft

2. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Pinnacles" patch) N of NN940980 - ~3700ft

3. Garbh Choire Mhor, Braeriach (known as the "Michaelmas Fare" patch) N of NN940979 - ~3680ft

4. Garbh Uisge Beag, Ben Macdui, NH994010 - ~3550ft

5. Gardyloo Gully, Ben Nevis, S of NN166714, ~3800ft

6. Observatory Gully, Ben Nevis, NN166714, ~3700ft

7. Point 5 Gully, Ben Nevis, E of NN166714, ~3600ft

8. Protalus, Aonach Mor, NN193736, ~3675ft

9. Queen's View, Aonach Beag, NN196716, ~3115ft

Nothing really very spectacular this year. A couple of interesting points are that Garbh Uisge Beag made if for the first time in 5-years (only just, mind) and that Aonach Beag made it again. This surprises me given its altitude, which is lower than Scaffell in the Lake District. Quite probably, the snow you're looking at in this photograph fell in late 2006.

Gardyloo Gully made it, but this patch isn't widely recorded so it's difficult to tell whether it's a regular or not. I'll keep an eye on that one in the coming season.

Edited November 10, 2008 by firefly