Scottish Met Office

[Dartmoor_Matt]

Scotland should definitely have its own Met Office, Ireland has its own so why shouldn't we?

Just what were you saying then? You are making a direct comparison when there isn't one to make.

[Yeti]

Right, let's discuss this piece by piece.

Scotland doesn't allow English students to study for free because there are too many of them. There are a lot more English students in my university than there are European (Glasgow University). In fact, of the 30 or so English students that I know personally, about 25 or so of them are of direct Scottish descent.

Scotland has constitutional jurisdiction over 90% of the UK's oil reserves.

The part in bold Yeti is actually quite offensive. Also, it's odd that you think there's little economic potential in a country with the highest number of university graduates per head of capita in Europe. However, I understand that this can be an uncomfortable issue for many English, and indeed Scottish people to discuss and I realise that it can sometimes be irritating.

Sure, as soon as you give us our oil money back.

OK well firstly I apologise if it came across as offensive

I take your point about the high number of university graduates; however, the problem lies more in the country itself. There is no truly international city like London, nor is there any particularly large city like Madrid, London, Paris, Barcelona etc. which makes independence without oil rather tricky.

And no one can deny that the oil won't last forever. Decent production will be nearly over by 2020 unless a major new field is found. Without oil things become a lot more difficult for Scotland.

Also, I think it's unfair to say that we need to "give Scotland back" its oil. To be fair, you have seen many, many privileges over the years, university and nursing home fees to mention but two. You certainly get a better deal than the English, and we, ultimately, pay for this difference.

Finally, I see it differently about there being "too many" English students about. We are the United Kingdom and should behave as such. English and Scottish students are all UK students, we are paying to fund Scottish universities at least as much as the Scots are so we should not be restricted in going there, just as Scots are most welcome here. In fact, we contribute more than any other group, and a hell of a lot more than EU students, so it seems a tad unfair that we then are the only group that has to pay AGAIN to go there. If you were a separate country such as Ireland, it would be a different story

Edited February 14, 2009 by Yeti

[Zenarcher]

Speaking from the Western Isles here the weather is really important for different reasons and we also get the extreme weather through the winter. For the Western Isles the Met Office give out a forecast for Stornoway and Tiree also the shipping and inshore forecast there very good but sometimes they can get it accurate and sometimes they can't. They don't give a forecast for the middle or southern of the Western Isles. They can tell you what the South Uist weather station is saying but they give no forcast out. Either the Met Office could improve which of course is easier than creating a whole new site for Scotland however if they where to make one for Scotland that would be great.

[Essan]

I can't see any point at all in Scotland having a separate Met Office in order to duplicate 100% what is currently done in Exeter?

Only thing it might achieve (apart from a waste of money) is for funding to be withdrawn from MWIS

(There's really no reason why Met Eireann and the Met Office couldn't merge either - given that both issue forecast for the same region affected by the same weather systems. Though I accept politically it might not be a good idea!)

[NorthernRab]

Just what were you saying then? You are making a direct comparison when there isn't one to make.

I'll say it once again, devolution. That's the point in devolution, devolving matters such as healthcare, education etc which aren't of extreme importance to national (UK) security in comparison to defence. Meteorology is certainly less important than healthcare and education so it could therefore be a devolved issue.

[Dartmoor_Matt]

I'll say it once again, devolution. That's the point in devolution, devolving matters such as healthcare, education etc which aren't of extreme importance to national (UK) security in comparison to defence. Meteorology is certainly less important than healthcare and education so it could therefore be a devolved issue.

You didn't say that in your original post. You compared Scotland directly with Ireland.

Besides, I still think having two entities doing exactly the same job at exactly the sametime is a waste of money. If Scotland gain independance then of course it can do what it wants with its populations taxes.

Oh, but have a gander at page 15 in The Times. Seems not all is as it seems with regards the oil fields.

[NorthernRab]

OK well firstly I apologise if it came across as offensive

I take your point about the high number of university graduates; however, the problem lies more in the country itself. There is no truly international city like London, nor is there any particularly large city like Madrid, London, Paris, Barcelona etc. which makes independence without oil rather tricky.

And no one can deny that the oil won't last forever. Decent production will be nearly over by 2020 unless a major new field is found. Without oil things become a lot more difficult for Scotland.

Also, I think it's unfair to say that we need to "give Scotland back" its oil. To be fair, you have seen many, many privileges over the years, university and nursing home fees to mention but two. You certainly get a better deal than the English, and we, ultimately, pay for this difference.

Finally, I see it differently about there being "too many" English students about. We are the United Kingdom and should behave as such. English and Scottish students are all UK students, we are paying to fund Scottish universities at least as much as the Scots are so we should not be restricted in going there, just as Scots are most welcome here. In fact, we contribute more than any other group, and a hell of a lot more than EU students, so it seems a tad unfair that we then are the only group that has to pay AGAIN to go there. If you were a separate country such as Ireland, it would be a different story

Some great points there Yeti, despite the fact that we may not be in agreement.

It's a contraversial issue as to whether Scotland has actually taken much money out of the English taxpayer's pocket in comparison to the loss of revenue from Scotland's oil, the truth of the matter is that we'll never know. What we do know is that legally, the oil belongs to Scotland. It should be noted that Norway, a nation of similar population and population density is one of the wealthiest nations in the world per head of capita. Also, Norway doesn't have an international city, Oslo and Glasgow are similar in population, and Edinburgh is the second most important banking city in the UK (and among the largest financial centres in Europe). Luxembourg, the wealthiest nation on earth per head of capita, doesn't have a major international city at all.

The point that we are UK students is, undoubtedly, a difficult one. Devolution is fantastic for enhancing democracy, and the result of devolution is that we are free to choose whether or not English students should be permitted to study for free at our universities. As a nation, we decided that there are too many English students to study for free in Scotland. Consider this, if we were to offer free university level education to English students, the number of English students that would flock to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Strathclyde would be far higher than it is now, and how is that fair compared to the OTHER English students that must remain at home in England and pay for their education? These universities are already competitive enough and Scotland has to take steps to ensure that its own youth (and postgraduate students respectively) have a fair chance of getting into their own country's universities.

With regards to the point on oil production, new developments in drilling have seen the potential to drill an amount of oil three times higher than has already been found in the future.

Cities like London perpetuate inequalities, the top 5% of English citizens own about 60% of the nation's wealth. As we are both socialists, I know that you are already aware of the massive inequalities.

Oh, but have a gander at page 15 in The Times. Seems not all is as it seems with regards the oil fields.

The Scottish Times or just the Times? Oh, and take a walk from Canary Warf to another, less fortunate area of London, seems this fantastic growth has only gone into the hands of a few

You didn't say that in your original post. You compared Scotland directly with Ireland.

I'm sorry, I assumed that you had the intelligence (which you clearly do) to realise that Scotland has the right to have its own Met Office. Scotland is a country, Ireland is also a country, regardless of the UK, devolution equates to devolved matters, not difficult. Besides, I have already clarified this for you a few times, why must you persist?

Edit: I've removed the petty smile, it's this sort of smug attitude which leads to frictions and difficulty in discussing such issues in the first place.

Edited February 14, 2009 by NorthernRab

[Dartmoor_Matt]

The Scottish Times or just the Times? Oh, and take a walk from Canary Warf to another, less fortunate area of London, seems this fantastic growth has only gone into the hands of a few

I'm sorry, I assumed that you had the intelligence to realise that Scotland has the right to have its own Met Office. Scotland is a country, Ireland is also a country, regardless of the UK, devolution equates to devolved matters, not difficult. Besides, I have already clarified this for you a few times, why must you persist?

The Times (London)

Oh, and I'm not in London, so the chances of me walking anywhere around Canary Wharf is slim.

I didn't say it couldn't, I said it would be a waste of money. Which it would be. Money that would no doubt in part come from the UK Parliament. Unlike Irelands Met Office, which comes from Irelands Parliament. Lets not split hairs. It is different.

Anyway, its a total waste of time going around in circles. Oh and there was no smugness, I have no feeling, beyond it being a waste of money, towards this at all.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Dartmoor_Matt

[Yeti]

Some great points there Yeti, despite the fact that we may not be in agreement.

It's a contraversial issue as to whether Scotland has actually taken much money out of the English taxpayer's pocket in comparison to the loss of revenue from Scotland's oil, the truth of the matter is that we'll never know. What we do know is that legally, the oil belongs to Scotland. It should be noted that Norway, a nation of similar population and population density is one of the wealthiest nations in the world per head of capita. Also, Norway doesn't have an international city, Oslo and Glasgow are similar in population, and Edinburgh is the second most important banking city in the UK (and among the largest financial centres in Europe). Luxembourg, the wealthiest nation on earth per head of capita, doesn't have a major international city at all.

The point that we are UK students is, undoubtedly, a difficult one. Devolution is fantastic for enhancing democracy, and the result of devolution is that we are free to choose whether or not English students should be permitted to study for free at our universities. As a nation, we decided that there are too many English students to study for free in Scotland. Consider this, if we were to offer free university level education to English students, the number of English students that would flock to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Strathclyde would be far higher than it is now, and how is that fair compared to the OTHER English students that must remain at home in England and pay for their education? These universities are already competitive enough and Scotland has to take steps to ensure that its own youth (and postgraduate students respectively) have a fair chance of getting into their own country's universities.

With regards to the point on oil production, new developments in drilling have seen the potential to drill an amount of oil three times higher than has already been found in the future.

Cities like London perpetuate inequalities, the top 5% of English citizens own about 60% of the nation's wealth. As we are both socialists, I know that you are already aware of the massive inequalities.

The Scottish Times or just the Times? Oh, and take a walk from Canary Warf to another, less fortunate area of London, seems this fantastic growth has only gone into the hands of a few

Again you make some good points. I certainly agree about London and the South East; there is huge inequality about and you only need to come to Yorkshire to realise that England isn't all wealth. Yes, Harrogate is a wealthy town and Leeds is (arguably) on a par with Edinburgh for finance, but there are still some desperately poor areas around here - areas of Leeds, Bradford and Sheffield and of course other even poorer places in the North (Liverpool, parts of the NE and Cumbria). Scotland isn't free from inequality either - overall it's the 2nd wealthiest UK region, but compare the wealithiest areas of Edinburgh to the poorest areas of Glasgow and I think it would be self-explanatory. Glasgow, indeed, has some of the poorest places in the country - I read recently that one area had 97% of children growing up below the poverty line. Perhaps if we were to break down regions into smaller areas we would be able to distribute wealth more fairly.

To be fair to Scotland, it doesn't charge English students as much as English universities do. I have applied to Edinburgh (awaiting a decision!) and whilst my 4 English choices will be £3200 per year, in Edinburgh I think it's about £1600 - not equal, but it's a sizeable reduction and would be enough to sway a decision either way. I suppose it's difficult to say whether Scottish unis would be swamped if they charged no fees to the English however; it might not make that much of a difference as in my experience finance doesn't seem on the agenda for most prospective students (hence why the London universities are still incredibly popular). Also, you can't really say it would be unfair on English students who chose to stay at home to pay more, because apart from Law students, you would be completely free to go to whatever uni you wanted and if you chose to stay in England you couldn't complain if the choice was there.

Wrt comparing Scotland to Norway and Luxembourg, this is done a lot imo however, I don't think you can really compare any two countries. For example, Norway makes one heck of a lot of money through tourism, which Scotland fails to do despite having the most stunning scenery in the UK, arguably Europe (partly due to the weather mind). Although I must say it's a failure of the UK and Scottish government to exploit this resource more because if people in Europe knew how stunning Nern England and Scotland were, a lot more would come, of that I am sure. Luxembourg, on the other hand, is extremely important within the EU and NATO and a lot of its revenue comes from being centres of these two organisations. Switzerland, we all know about.

Undoubtedly then, oil is vital for Scotland at the moment. However no advances in technology can prevent an end to the supply; all they can do is prolong this end. One day, Scotland will have to live withough oil. I believe two other important industries are information technology and banking; whether these are enough to support an independent state I don't pretend to know, but they are, at least, growing, and isn't Scotland resisting the credit crunch a lot better? (All those thrifty minds eh!)

Regards

David

Edited February 14, 2009 by Yeti

[NorthernRab]

The Times (London)

Oh, and I'm not in London, so the chances of me walking anywhere around Canary Wharf is slim.

I didn't say it couldn't, I said it would be a waste of money. Which it would be. Money that would no doubt in part come from the UK Parliament. Unlike Irelands Met Office, which comes from Irelands Parliament. Lets not split hairs. It is different.

Anyway, its a total waste of time going around in circles. Oh and there was no smugness, I have no feeling, beyond it being a waste of money, towards this at all.

, the London point was hypothetical. I don't actually expect you to go for a walk in London just because I told you to haha.

The funding for the Scottish Government's bodies can come from Scotland's own pocket in my opinion. I'm afraid the one who's splitting hairs here is you, you seem to be insinuating that Ireland's Met Office is fine. If Ireland's Met Office was to merge with the UKMO, there would be a lot of money saved, so the point here is one of principles and not of cash. Either way, if Scotland decided to have its own Met Office, it wouldn't concern you since you're an English citizen. Let's not split hairs here, Scotland and Ireland are in the same position here.

My main point is that independence should come first, then a Scottish Met Office.

[Dartmoor_Matt]

, the London point was hypothetical. I don't actually expect you to go for a walk in London just because I told you to haha.

The funding for the Scottish Government's bodies can come from Scotland's own pocket in my opinion. I'm afraid the one who's splitting hairs here is you, you seem to be insinuating that Ireland's Met Office is fine. If Ireland's Met Office was to merge with the UKMO, there would be a lot of money saved, so the point here is one of principles and not of cash. Either way, if Scotland decided to have its own Met Office, it wouldn't concern you since you're an English citizen. Let's not split hairs here, Scotland and Ireland are in the same position here.

My main point is that independence should come first, then a Scottish Met Office.

Then we agree. I had already put that once Scotland was independant it could do what it wanted with its finances. My point with Irelands Met Office was of course only valid if you were wanting to have a Met Office of your own while still receiving funds from the UK Parliament.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Dartmoor_Matt

[Yeti]

, the London point was hypothetical. I don't actually expect you to go for a walk in London just because I told you to haha.

The funding for the Scottish Government's bodies can come from Scotland's own pocket in my opinion. I'm afraid the one who's splitting hairs here is you, you seem to be insinuating that Ireland's Met Office is fine. If Ireland's Met Office was to merge with the UKMO, there would be a lot of money saved, so the point here is one of principles and not of cash. Either way, if Scotland decided to have its own Met Office, it wouldn't concern you since you're an English citizen. Let's not split hairs here, Scotland and Ireland are in the same position here.

My main point is that independence should come first, then a Scottish Met Office.

I take your point but I suppose the difference between Scotland and Ireland is that Scotland does have the UKMO doing a reasonable job, whereas if Ireland gave up there would be no other Meto for them. It could be a devolved matter and hence something for the Scots to sort out for themselves. But is it really worth it? Only if the UKMO does a poor job for Scotland and if frequent complaining produces no results IMO.

[NorthernRab]

Again you make some good points. I certainly agree about London and the South East; there is huge inequality about and you only need to come to Yorkshire to realise that England isn't all wealth. Yes, Harrogate is a wealthy town and Leeds is (arguably) on a par with Edinburgh for finance, but there are still some desperately poor areas around here - areas of Leeds, Bradford and Sheffield and of course other even poorer places in the North (Liverpool, parts of the NE and Cumbria). Scotland isn't free from inequality either - overall it's the 2nd wealthiest UK region, but compare the wealithiest areas of Edinburgh to the poorest areas of Glasgow and I think it would be self-explanatory. Glasgow, indeed, has some of the poorest places in the country - I read recently that one area had 97% of children growing up below the poverty line. Perhaps if we were to break down regions into smaller areas we would be able to distribute wealth more fairly.

To be fair to Scotland, it doesn't charge English students as much as English universities do. I have applied to Edinburgh (awaiting a decision!) and whilst my 4 English choices will be £3200 per year, in Edinburgh I think it's about £1600 - not equal, but it's a sizeable reduction and would be enough to sway a decision either way. I suppose it's difficult to say whether Scottish unis would be swamped if they charged no fees to the English however; it might not make that much of a difference as in my experience finance doesn't seem on the agenda for most prospective students (hence why the London universities are still incredibly popular). Also, you can't really say it would be unfair on English students who chose to stay at home to pay more, because apart from Law students, you would be completely free to go to whatever uni you wanted and if you chose to stay in England you couldn't complain if the choice was there.

Wrt comparing Scotland to Norway and Luxembourg, this is done a lot imo however, I don't think you can really compare any two countries. For example, Norway makes one heck of a lot of money through tourism, which Scotland fails to do despite having the most stunning scenery in the UK, arguably Europe (partly due to the weather mind). Although I must say it's a failure of the UK and Scottish government to exploit this resource more because if people in Europe knew how stunning Nern England and Scotland were, a lot more would come, of that I am sure. Luxembourg, on the other hand, is extremely important within the EU and NATO and a lot of its revenue comes from being centres of these two organisations. Switzerland, we all know about.

Undoubtedly then, oil is vital for Scotland at the moment. However no advances in technology can prevent an end to the supply; all they can do is prolong this end. One day, Scotland will have to live withough oil. I believe two other important industries are information technology and banking; whether these are enough to support an independent state I don't pretend to know, but they are, at least, growing, and isn't Scotland resisting the credit crunch a lot better? (All those thrifty minds eh!)

Regards

David

Without a doubt concerning Scottish inequalities. Take Glasgow for example, within a one mile walk you can go from Drumchapel to Bearsden. Drumchapel has the wealth and health standards of Poland, whereas Bearsden has the wealth and health standards of Sweden, it's the extremes of a continent within a city. However, such inequalities are a lot less common than in England, as we all know.

With regards to a tourism, I come from a city which makes a lot of money from tourism. For Invernesshire, I think that we earn a lot from tourism compared to the rest of Scotland (except from Edinburgh, quite a few pennies made there!) and I agree that this needs to be improved for other areas. However, with an independent Scotland, you could argue that Scotland's tourism would increase - independence would most probably make headlines round the world, undoubtedly due to the UK's global importance.

Also, this year is the Scottish Homecoming Year, which will see a lot of Americans and Canadians of Scottish descent visiting Scotland for the first time, a real boost to our tourism. I'm not going to lie, I am excited about Barra's Whisky Festival this summer !

I would like to make one thing clear at this moment in time. I have nothing but respect for England as a nation, we have been through an awful lot together. However, I do not think it's fair that England should have to accomodate for Scotland's problems and I believe that as a nation, we can sort these problems out ourselves (and a quick glance over many of the posts made by English users in this topic confirms this!) The EU is still there, and if Scotland was to become independent, there is still a massive amount of potential for economic growth between the two nations (hopefully, a more equal one in the future!), with free trade and the freedom to hop across the border as normal. At the end of the day, I think Scotland's problems should be Scotland's problems and England's problems should be England's problems.

Edited February 14, 2009 by NorthernRab

[Yeti]

I also see room for Scotland to be independent; I'd just be worried about the future after oil, but then again, I'm no expert! It's certainly a great country and is very different to the UK, having had a separate history and culture for hundreds of years.

And Edinburgh, without a shadow of doubt in my mind, is the finest city out there

[rossco89]

The met office should be in the north of england, that way, theres no southern bais with the warning systems! soz, just my personal opinion!

[LomondSnowstorm]

The met office should be in the north of england, that way, theres no southern bais with the warning systems! soz, just my personal opinion!

if the union is to survive, I reckon that the capital should be moved to the north of england.

It is geographically far more central, and means that the bias is not de facto on the south east.

I think that we do need our own met office, because we are too often overlooked by the met. office, but its the south east media bias that really needs to be addressed. It seems that the met. office are forced to overlook the north because of the general media bias, so if that problem was solved then the others may fall into place.

[Mondy]

and Scotland has a spare £20m for an identical computer to that used at Exeter?

And the Scottish tax payer would be willing to do that?

I suspect not.

They'd be as well getting a new computer at all costs. At least it would be dedicated to Scotland's weather!

However, a better route may be to call it Scotland/N.England Met Service.

PS, we ain't really got a spare £20m at the moment. Well, that's not strictly true - we have - but it's being used to fund the London Olympics!

PPS: Interesting poll results so far too..

Edited February 14, 2009 by Delta X-Ray

[TEITS]

What on earth is all this southern bias rubbish!

If we are referring to the recent cold spell then considering I have seen 18 inches of snow, 7 heavy snowfalls, in the past 2 weeks then the warnings for S England have been perfectly plausible. Furthermore much of the snowfall has been due to fronts moving in from the SW England bringing heavy snow to S locations. The snowfall in the N has been via relatively weak fronts hence the lack of warnings compared to the S.

Seems to me those in the N are really moaning because they have missed out from the cold spell rather than the actual warnings from the Met O.

To answer the question should Scotland have its own Met office then the answer is no for me because they do a perfectly good job as it is.

[Mondy]

What on earth is all this southern bias rubbish!

It's a great question that we northeners are still trying to fathom out!

[TEITS]

It's a great question that we northeners are still trying to fathom out!

The thing is I can think of numerous occasions where there has been warnings for Scotland and very little for England and often I have asked myself "if only I lived in Aberdeenshire".

Since mid Dec its been a dreadful winter for Scotland mainly due to the lack of N,lys. So rather than blaming the Met O warnings, members from the S, you should all just accept that its just how it goes sometimes.

[Mondy]

Since mid Dec its been a dreadful winter for Scotland mainly due to the lack of N,lys. So rather than blaming the Met O warnings, members from the S, you should all just accept that its just how it goes sometimes.

Perhaps this displays (your own) southern bias. Been nothing "dreadful" about it in these northern landscapes of ours.

Coldest temps in decades, snowfall galore, highest wind gusts for a few years, frontal snow from a westerly (at least twice)..Been a joy to watch actually :-)

[Yeti]

Perhaps this displays (your own) southern bias. Been nothing "dreadful" about it in these northern landscapes of ours.

Coldest temps in decades, snowfall galore, highest wind gusts for a few years, frontal snow from a westerly (at least twice)..Been a joy to watch actually :-)

I agree, it's been excellent and I have seen a lot more snow than most places in the S. The problem is that this never gets reported, so southerners think they did a lot better. What's more, I still have 10cm of snow in the garden; snow has been lying for 2 weeks now which is something I'm sure nowhere in the S can claim.

I think Scotland and Nern England are in the same boat really.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Yeti

[Nick L]

Well I have said this before and I will say it a million times. Let's say London and a part of Scotland both get a foot of snow. In London there will be massive disruption, so there is a huge need for a warning as there are millions of people living in that area WHO ARE NOT USED TO IT. In most areas of Scotland, they are relatively used to snow and there are relatively few people - I am not saying that a warning isn't warranted, but IF there is a southern bias in terms of snow warnings, then I can see why. And to be honest if anything Scotland gets far more warnings for snow than anywhere else - as TEITS points out.

But I think the main problem is that some people on here are just going way OTT with the southern bias issue.

Back on topic, and if the Scottish people want their own Met Office, fine - but they can pay for it themselves!

Edited February 14, 2009 by nick2702

[Birkhill saints]

:lol: YES i have the answer.Move the hole met office,lock stock and barrel to brussels ooooh yes then we can have euromet which can give out the weather for the regions of europe.And since england is just a small region of europe that will do just fine. Get the message? EUROMET NOW.

[LomondSnowstorm]

I agree, it's been excellent and I have seen a lot more snow than most places in the S. The problem is that this never gets reported, so southerners think they did a lot better. What's more, I still have 10cm of snow in the garden; snow has been lying for 2 weeks now which is something I'm sure nowhere in the S can claim.

I think Scotland and Nern England are in the same boat really.

yep, i see place in the north of england as being more like parts of scotland than the south east (not just in being constantly overlooked :lol: )