Scottish Met Office

[TEITS]

The point is it's not just Aviemore. I have seen more snow than East Anglia (still have 10cm now in the garden) and this never got a mention. Nor were any of the warnings correct; ramps of 50cm for this area despite the radar showing 10cm max. In fact most of the snow fell when warnings weren't issued or were less severe.

The fact is that the N has generally seen more snow this cold spell, but the media would lead you to think the opposite. I do take your point though about it being much rarer in the S than up here and in Scotland.

Yes but the same can be said for my location.

I still have around 10cm and have had lying snow since Feb 2nd. Now on Feb 5th the media were showing footage of locations with hardly any snow and yet Northants/Cambs had around 8 inches lying snow and yet we didn't get a mention.

I will add that since Feb 2nd I have seen 6 seperate snowfalls and these were below.

Feb 2nd 2 inches

Feb 5th 8 inches

Feb 6th 2 inches

Feb 8th 1 inches

Feb 9th 3 inches

Feb 12th 2 inches

My brother lives in Newcastle and apart from the snow on Feb 12th he has seen hardly any.

Edited February 15, 2009 by THE EYE IN THE SKY

[Essan]

The point is still valid though- the snow for the Leeds area was not very well forecast.

But would it have been better forecast if the Meto were based in Leeds? Perhaps we should ask those stuck in snow thbe ovther night on a road just outside Exeter?

A Scottish - or loads of regional - offices wouldn't make any differnce since all have the same access to the same data.

You could forecast the weather in Britain just as well from Tokyo.

[TEITS]

Heres another way of looking at snow depths during our recent cold spell.

Click on the link below and select the location followed by history and then snow depths.

http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/ukukstdf.htm

A couple of examples but during this cold spell Aberdeen had 13cm lying snow, Wick 8cm, Peterborough 15cm. Now I think its fair to say Aberdeen is a fairly snowy location in Scotland but as you can see Peterborough had more snowfall. I obviously didn't select Aviemore for obvious reasons because if Peterborough was at 228 ASL we would of had nearly 60cm of snow just from the atlantic storm alone!

[butler_son]

Hmm..I've been quite amused by the accusations of a media having a southern bias...I see it as more of a south eastern/Home Counties bias. Even on weather forecasts on the BBC (and I've looked for other regions suffering the same fate, but can't find any that either do, or as frequently), the whole county of Dorset never appears on its zoom round of the whole country. But that's a different topic.

Scotland is very much, for the now, part of the UK. However, this is, of course, not a debate on the constitutional status of Scotland, neither that of Wales, Northern Ireland or indeed Cornwall. I'm of the opinion that Scotland does not need its own Met Office, mainly due to it being seemingly out of place for many Met Offices in one sovereign state. However, I believe Jersey and Guernesy have their own Mets. These are of course outside the jurisdiction of the UK, therefore are entitled to such. However, I don't know how these are administered compared to Exeter.

And the Met Office does an efficient job - it's not as if it is particularly Devon centric (as you'd expect given the location) - so why have it located in Leeds, for example? The media certainly have a London based bias, but I'm not so sure about the MetO.

[NorthernRab]

Would you agree then that the Highlands should be separate from sassenach Scotland? After all, the Highlands are very different in terms of language, history and heritage to Dun Eidean or Glaschu - and don't even get me started on Shetland!

No, not at all, because we are all Scottish. With regards to your comments about history and heritage being very different between the north and the south of Scotland, that is false. Scottish Wars of Independence involved the entire of Scotland...

Huge differences in Scottish culture between the north and south? Differences obviously, but not very big.

[RedShift]

Should Scotland have a Met Office? I honestly cannot see the point of it. What new and different data would it have? How would it improve weather and climate analysis on what we already have?

Seems to be two separate themes going on here: 1) the ‘southern media bias’ – well that’s where a lot of people live so it’s only natural there is a bias towards the SE of England, it’s the same in nearly every country you care to mention, including Scotland, where the news is ‘biased’ towards the Central belt. Although I do concede that the breathless headlines of ‘the country has seen the heaviest snowfall for 20 years’ after the London snow event did irritate; 2) I can’t understand the fixation with Meto weather warnings on here. If you are concerned about the weather, check the charts on here, listen to the radio and, most reliably, stick your head out the window. I have never observed the Met Office ‘ignoring’ Scotland. Yes they get it wrong sometimes, but we live on a collection of mild, damp little islands on the margin of one of the biggest oceans in the world. Snow/cold events are almost always going to be marginal; I don’t envy the Meto’s task. As Essan has pointed out, using the logic displayed by some here, forecasts for Exeter/SW England should be perfect – they probably aren’t.

[Yeti]

Heres another way of looking at snow depths during our recent cold spell.

Click on the link below and select the location followed by history and then snow depths.

http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/ukukstdf.htm

A couple of examples but during this cold spell Aberdeen had 13cm lying snow, Wick 8cm, Peterborough 15cm. Now I think its fair to say Aberdeen is a fairly snowy location in Scotland but as you can see Peterborough had more snowfall. I obviously didn't select Aviemore for obvious reasons because if Peterborough was at 228 ASL we would of had nearly 60cm of snow just from the atlantic storm alone!

Yes but your point was that it's been an appalling winter in the N and yet we have definitely seen more snow. I have had 25 days of snow lying this winter; 24 falling, maximum depth of 10 inches (Leeds Bradford airport had 11 inches at one point) and there is still almost full cover in the garden today with 8cm in places. And yet none of this snow was well forecast, or had a mention in the media. The only places in the N that have missed out are Western Coasts and nearby, and Eastern Coasts but even these saw lots of snow on Thursday night. London overall has seen a lot less snow because it nearly all fell on one day, and there has been nothing like 2 weeks of snow on the ground.

I still think the S has seen less snow than the N this cold spell, general.

[Nick L]

Yes but your point was that it's been an appalling winter in the N and yet we have definitely seen more snow. I have had 25 days of snow lying this winter; 24 falling, maximum depth of 10 inches (Leeds Bradford airport had 11 inches at one point) and there is still almost full cover in the garden today with 8cm in places. And yet none of this snow was well forecast, or had a mention in the media. The only places in the N that have missed out are Western Coasts and nearby, and Eastern Coasts but even these saw lots of snow on Thursday night. London overall has seen a lot less snow because it nearly all fell on one day, and there has been nothing like 2 weeks of snow on the ground.

I still think the S has seen less snow than the N this cold spell, general.

Well I have seen lots of snow forecast for the North on the BBC in recent weeks.

And about people making points that snow in the north never gets a mention in the media, well the north getting snow isn't really news now is it? The south east getting a foot and Devon getting nearly 2 feet - now that's news.

[Osbourne One-Nil]

Take a trip out to Maryport and you will see what I mean!

Thanks Yeti, I do know my own county pretty well, and if you think down-at-heel Maryport is one of the most deprived areas in the north, then I'm astonished. In fact, if you think anywhere in Cumbria compares to some of the country's most deprived areas then I have to question the worth of anything you say.

You write with great confidence, yet I'm not entirely sure it's warranted. Off-topic I know, but valid.

[Yeti]

Thanks Yeti, I do know my own county pretty well, and if you think down-at-heel Maryport is one of the most deprived areas in the north, then I'm astonished. In fact, if you think anywhere in Cumbria compares to some of the country's most deprived areas then I have to question the worth of anything you say.

You write with great confidence, yet I'm not entirely sure it's warranted. Off-topic I know, but valid.

Haha point taken, I couldn't help having a crack at Maryport

There are much worse places in the NE (and Yorkshire). Although I do seem to remember reading somewhere that Cumbria was one of the poorest counties?

Actually, having said that, I've just seen this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unite..._GDP_per_capita

The NW comes in as slightly wealthier than Yorkshire and the Humber, and I would imagine that Cumbria is the wealthiest county in the NW considering that it takes into account Merseyside, Greater Manchester etc.

[Richard Taylor]

Fascinating stuff, & there does indeed seem to be two threads running through this thread - i. should Scotland have its own METO & ii. is there is bias of reporting gravitating to the south, & in particular the SE/London/Home Counties.

As I said & others know, the METO has a presence in Aberdeen, I think ostensibly to report for those offshore - fishermen, oil platforms etc. Also for those who like heading off into the mountains. I think they were planning to close Aberdeen & relocate all services to Exeter. A local & vigourous campaign by local politicians & other interested bodies persuaded (at least for now) the METO to keep the Aberdeen office open, on the basis that it was better to have someone "nearby" to provide a more accurate local forecast, better able to detect changes in the weather that might cause a problem & facilitate a warning.

Yes, I do agree there is a "southern" bias, but that isn't restricted to the weather forecasting or reporting. I agreed with the poster who was annoyed at the news comment of "the worst winter in 20yrs". Yes maybe in the SE England, but it didn't specify that. It generalized, suggesting it was the worst UK winter weather in 20yrs.

Aberdeen for example had a foot of snow fall around end Feb/start March 2006 & that was our worst Mar snowfall in 50yrs - don't recall much in the "UK" national news about that. Nor did it report the complete gridlock here (at least I didn't see it) a couple of Fridays back due to the snow.

I suppose I can see that there is always more news where the centres of population are, but nevertheless if you are presenting the news, weather or whatever for ALL of the UK, you should not be concentrating constantly on one area of the country.

No doubt, everything in the UK is very London/SE England-centric.

Just my tuppence.

[Yeti]

The SE bias was epitomised recently when snow had fallen for the 2nd time in London, as well as many other parts of Britain, and they were discussing what to do to get the latest information.

"Now of course local radio stations are keeping us all up to date - just tune into radio Berkshire, BBC Essex, radio Cambridgeshire, radio Kent and Southern Counties radio, all will give you the latest....."

Meanwhile I had BBC radio York on and schools were closing all over the place and heavy snow was falling outside - but of course we don't feature in national news bulletins :unsure:

Fascinating stuff, & there does indeed seem to be two threads running through this thread - i. should Scotland have its own METO & ii. is there is bias of reporting gravitating to the south, & in particular the SE/London/Home Counties.

As I said & others know, the METO has a presence in Aberdeen, I think ostensibly to report for those offshore - fishermen, oil platforms etc. Also for those who like heading off into the mountains. I think they were planning to close Aberdeen & relocate all services to Exeter. A local & vigourous campaign by local politicians & other interested bodies persuaded (at least for now) the METO to keep the Aberdeen office open, on the basis that it was better to have someone "nearby" to provide a more accurate local forecast, better able to detect changes in the weather that might cause a problem & facilitate a warning.

Yes, I do agree there is a "southern" bias, but that isn't restricted to the weather forecasting or reporting. I agreed with the poster who was annoyed at the news comment of "the worst winter in 20yrs". Yes maybe in the SE England, but it didn't specify that. It generalized, suggesting it was the worst UK winter weather in 20yrs.

Aberdeen for example had a foot of snow fall around end Feb/start March 2006 & that was our worst Mar snowfall in 50yrs - don't recall much in the "UK" national news about that. Nor did it report the complete gridlock here (at least I didn't see it) a couple of Fridays back due to the snow.

I suppose I can see that there is always more news where the centres of population are, but nevertheless if you are presenting the news, weather or whatever for ALL of the UK, you should not be concentrating constantly on one area of the country.

No doubt, everything in the UK is very London/SE England-centric.

Just my tuppence. :lol:

The thing is that Aberdeen is a centre of population, being the size of York and the 3rd biggest city in Scotland.

[Osbourne One-Nil]

I agree with that. The majority of people do not live in the south-east and London.

I'll never forget one year as a kid, when on holiday in Applecross in the far north of Scotland, and there was the Test Match on the telly. It seemed like it was coming from another world.

[BlizzardConditions]

Since mid Dec its been a dreadful winter for Scotland mainly due to the lack of N,lys. So rather than blaming the Met O warnings, members from the S, you should all just accept that its just how it goes sometimes.

I've always enjoyed reading your posts TEITS but that is a rather insulting reply! Do you really think that the bulk of us complaining about the MO are only doing it because we didn't get as much snow as people in the South? How petty do you think we are! I won't go over old ground but other people have stated rather well how the MO have not forecast events in Northern Britain nearly as well as in the South. (Note how I say Northern Britain and not just Scotland).

Some people need to get a grip and realise that snowfall In S England is less frequent than parts of Scotland and due to the population can have a greater impact. If a tornado struck Oklahoma which then moved onto New York which do you feel would recieve the greater media attention!!

Of course we realise that there is a greater population in certain areas and so of course it will receive greater attention - from the media at least. But as everyone pays money which contributes to the running of the MO everyone is entitled to an accurate forecast and not just one area. As has already been mentioned, Shetland Coastie received no warnings last week despite almost being snowed in at work! Are you saying that just because particular areas are used to seeing more snow that they don't deserve warnings? It doesn't matter how far out of the way it is - the MO has an obligation to all of Britain and not just the South.

To answer the question, no, I don't think Scotland needs its own MO as I agree with a lot of people that it would just be a waste of money and not a bill I would be happy to pay. If the MO was less focused on the South East in particular then I'm sure their forecasts would improve for the rest of Britain. Blizzardo summed up my own feelings extremely well on the first page.

[Thundery wintry showers]

I'm quite happy to agree that the MetO is not as "south-east biased" as the general media, including the BBC for that matter. They certainly put up no shortage of weather warnings for Scotland. However their predictions do seem to be more accurate the further south you are- perhaps due to influence from the media? Not sure, but the accuracy bias does seem to be more generally north-south, and does not contain any bias towards the South West as opposed to South East. Whatever, I think it's an area that could be improved.

As with most issues of this type, I don't have a problem with the South East getting more coverage because more people live there and it shuts down more easily. What I do have a problem with is anywhere north of Watford being treated as if it doesn't exist. Many of the Met Office's forecasts are channelled to the public through the media, which is part of the problem, for no matter how much of an effort the Met Office make to cover northern areas, it won't be much good if the media outlets focus on the forecast for the South East and gloss over the MetO's prediction of severe weather in the populated Scottish Lowlands for example.

[TEITS]

I've always enjoyed reading your posts TEITS but that is a rather insulting reply! Do you really think that the bulk of us complaining about the MO are only doing it because we didn't get as much snow as people in the South? How petty do you think we are! I won't go over old ground but other people have stated rather well how the MO have not forecast events in Northern Britain nearly as well as in the South. (Note how I say Northern Britain and not just Scotland).

I can't see whats insulting to be honest. I am posting a fact that in recent weeks much of the action has been to the S due to fronts moving in from SW England. So in my opinion the focus of the Met O warnings concentrating on the S have been perfectly apt especially as I looked through snow depths last night in Scotland/ N England.

Like I said earlier how many warnings has there been for Aberdeenshire in previous winters? Did you ever hear members in the S complaining about the Met O being bias? The answer is no because frankly we couldn't careless!

Edited February 15, 2009 by THE EYE IN THE SKY

[Troubleatmill]

i must admit, i cant really see what the met office have done wrong? they prety much forecast for all the uk & tell us when there is severe weather in the north, south, east or west.

The BBC however is a different story, if the severe weather had been north of the midlands it would of had a 5 second spot on the national news, but because it was down south (south east in particular) it was splattered all over the telly almost constantly. time they scrapped the liscense and then it would become the south easts own local tv station, cos thats the only region its bothered about

Edited February 15, 2009 by arron123

[Nick L]

I can't see whats insulting to be honest. I am posting a fact that in recent weeks much of the action has been to the S due to fronts moving in from SW England. So in my opinion the focus of the Met O warnings concentrating on the S have been perfectly apt especially as I looked through snow depths last night in Scotland/ N England.

Like I said earlier how many warnings has there been for Aberdeenshire in previous winters? Did you ever hear members in the S complaining about the Met O being bias? The answer is no because frankly we couldn't careless!

Just jealousy because we got more snow :lol: :unsure:

[Troubleatmill]

Just jealousy because we got more snow :lol: :unsure:

Nope its the same when there is flooding

[Nick L]

Nope its the same when there is flooding

But the Met Office don't issue flood warnings.

[Mondy]

The answer is no because frankly we couldn't careless!

That pretty much sums things up..

[Yeti]

I can't see whats insulting to be honest. I am posting a fact that in recent weeks much of the action has been to the S due to fronts moving in from SW England. So in my opinion the focus of the Met O warnings concentrating on the S have been perfectly apt especially as I looked through snow depths last night in Scotland/ N England.

Like I said earlier how many warnings has there been for Aberdeenshire in previous winters? Did you ever hear members in the S complaining about the Met O being bias? The answer is no because frankly we couldn't careless!

Even those snow depth records are biased, because there is no way I have seen as little snow as has been reported on there!

I stand by the fact that the S has NOT seen as much snow as the N (generally) this cold spell, but it appears that way because of the media and Metoffice. I have seen more snow than Peterborough, London, Hampshire etc. - probably about the same as Northants.

There is no way that most of the action has been in the S, it's just that S of the Yorkshire border is the only action that has been reported.

Not only that, but the N has held onto the snow for a lot longer. Most places in the S have seen rain and milder temps to wash away the snow, but the N is/has been able to hold onto much lower maxes and last night was the first time I have seen rain for weeks.

Just jealousy because we got more snow

There is no way you have had as much snow as up here, I'm sorry!

[LomondSnowstorm]

Even those snow depth records are biased, because there is no way I have seen as little snow as has been reported on there!

I stand by the fact that the S has NOT seen as much snow as the N (generally) this cold spell, but it appears that way because of the media and Metoffice. I have seen more snow than Peterborough, London, Hampshire etc. - probably about the same as Northants.

There is no way that most of the action has been in the S, it's just that S of the Yorkshire border is the only action that has been reported.

Not only that, but the N has held onto the snow for a lot longer. Most places in the S have seen rain and milder temps to wash away the snow, but the N is/has been able to hold onto much lower maxes and last night was the first time I have seen rain for weeks.

There is no way you have had as much snow as up here, I'm sorry!

the records do seem to be flawed as it only shows about 3 Scottish weather stations as having snow when in reality at 12 on thursday leuchars, dundee, aberdeen, inverness, edinburgh, glasgow and most other stations in scotland had at least an inch of lying snow.

I would rather that we made the current met office work, but if it continues with its current southeast bias then I see no reason why we shouldn't have our own met office. If we become independent or even just gain more powers over the next few years we will have to set one up anyway

The SE bias was epitomised recently when snow had fallen for the 2nd time in London, as well as many other parts of Britain, and they were discussing what to do to get the latest information.

"Now of course local radio stations are keeping us all up to date - just tune into radio Berkshire, BBC Essex, radio Cambridgeshire, radio Kent and Southern Counties radio, all will give you the latest....."

Meanwhile I had BBC radio York on and schools were closing all over the place and heavy snow was falling outside - but of course we don't feature in national news bulletins

my other concern with the 'tune into your local bbc radio station' is that we don't have a local bbc radio station!!!

bbc radio Scotland has to cover everywhere from the northern isles to dumfries while Berkshire get their own station!!

We have five times the population of Berkshire and a much greater area yet the bbc sees us as equal

I don't think that the listeners in Berkshire will have anything like the differences in weather from other parts of Berkshire that parts of Scotland do

Not really a weather point but I just felt the need to add it

[Yeti]

my other concern with the 'tune into your local bbc radio station' is that we don't have a local bbc radio station!!!

bbc radio Scotland has to cover everywhere from the northern isles to dumfries while Berkshire get their own station!!

We have five times the population of Berkshire and a much greater area yet the bbc sees us as equal

I don't think that the listeners in Berkshire will have anything like the differences in weather from other parts of Berkshire that parts of Scotland do

Not really a weather point but I just felt the need to add it

That is a disgrace! How it can be fair for Essex to have a radio station but then only one for the whole of Scotland, a country 2/3 of the size of England, is absurd!

I don't know how southerners even have the face to claim there is no bias wrt N and S (I think the bias is more SE compared to the rest of the UK because I don't see the West Country getting much of a look in either most of the time).

If you go independent, can Yorkshire join in?

[Stratos Ferric]

Scotland should definitely have its own Met Office, Ireland has its own so why shouldn't we? Just because we are part of the UK? Also, the warning system can be heavily focused on England and Wales during times of severe weather.

Here's another way of looking at it: why should jobs, paid for (I assume because it's a government body) by the people of Scotland, be in the south of England when they concern Scottish weather?

Ireland has it's own currency (sort of), it's own unique passport, a completely separate legislature. It's like saying France has it's own met office. Hardly a robust argument I'm afraid.

As Osmposm says: if the Scots want to fund it, let them have it. I suspect that the start up and operating costs for NO marginal beenfit whatsoever would place it way down the list of priorities, even if we weren't in straitened times.