Are The Seasons Distributed Correctly?

[leicsnow]

No! First half of December wins in my books in terms of far more snowfalls, cold snaps and the generall mood but it's a bit of a closer match!

It is probably the other way around for me further south, as in December during zonal periods the north can enjoy topplers while it's pretty average south of Cumbria. In March, however, we could benefit from a much more potent easterly.

I am quite surprised at your view considering March is what delivered your maximum snow depth

Edited February 1, 2012 by Tellow

[A Winter's Tale]

I am quite surprised at your view considering March is what delivered your maximum snow depth

You do take things very literally! Things aren't always as clear cut as black and white!

Yeah my maximum snow depth came from a battleground snowfall and you don't need extreme cold for that to happen. That's my only Spring battleground snowfall and all the other ones happened in winter - December in particular!

But really Tellow, getting snow and large snow in Spring is normal, getting the best of winter in Spring is normal because Spring is the transition from winter to Spring so expect the best of both March and summer to be found in this period. Spring isn't Spring without a wintry feel to it so taking the winter out of Spring is wrong! And other than the normal wintry weather element of Spring, March has other types of Spring weather that contradicts the concept of winter!

[Aaron]

Deep snowfalls occur in March but the record temperature for March is 25C.. when was the last time 25C was recorded in December?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Aaron

[leicsnow]

You do take things very literally! Things aren't always as clear cut as black and white!

Yeah my maximum snow depth came from a battleground snowfall and you don't need extreme cold for that to happen. That's my only Spring battleground snowfall and all the other ones happened in winter - December in particular!

But really Tellow, getting snow and large snow in Spring is normal, getting the best of winter in Spring is normal because Spring is the transition from winter to Spring so expect the best of both March and summer to be found in this period. Spring isn't Spring without a wintry feel to it so taking the winter out of Spring is wrong! And other than the normal wintry weather element of Spring, March has other types of Spring weather that contradicts the concept of winter!

The reason I take things literally is probably attributed to the fact that I have Asperger's Syndrome (look it up if you're interested).

I agree with you when you say you don't need extreme cold for a battleground snowfall - in fact it preferably needs to be warmer for obvious reasons! I also agree with you about the wintry element of Spring and whatnot, in fact I strongly agree!

But really, for me in the Midlands, any lying snow or really anything more than a few wintry showers is rather unusual before Christmas, and particularly so before mid-month (as I said it's probably a different story for you in Scotland). I suppose that makes December 2010 all the more exceptional! IMO and for my area the first half of March has more potential (probably not exceptionally so though) than early December. So with that mind I consider Winter as mid-December to mid-March. Although as I said, it's just my opinion!!!!

The reason I started this topic was because I have seen posts in this forum which say things like "I often consider X part of X month to be X season", so I became curious!

Edited February 2, 2012 by Tellow

[MP-R]

I think would be prudent to point out that one can't generalise about a whole month. I would say the first ten days of December are on average milder than the first ten days of March, then it reverses as both months go on - simply because early December is often characterised by mild Atlantic and early March is often featuring cold easterlies or northerlies e.g.

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2000/Rrea00120001201.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2001/Rrea00120010301.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2001/Rrea00120011201.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2002/Rrea00120020301.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2004/Rrea00120041204.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2005/Rrea00120050302.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2005/Rrea00120051201.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/2006/Rrea00120060301.gif

You get the gist!

[A Winter's Tale]

The reason I take things literally is probably attributed to the fact that I have Asperger's Syndrome (look it up if you're interested).

I agree with you when you say you don't need extreme cold for a battleground snowfall - in fact it preferably needs to be warmer for obvious reasons! I also agree with you about the wintry element of Spring and whatnot, in fact I strongly agree!

But really, for me in the Midlands, any lying snow or really anything more than a few wintry showers is rather unusual before Christmas, and particularly so before mid-month (as I said it's probably a different story for you in Scotland). I suppose that makes December 2010 all the more exceptional! IMO and for my area the first half of March has more potential (probably not exceptionally so though) than early December. So with that mind I consider Winter as mid-December to mid-March. Although as I said, it's just my opinion!!!!

The reason I started this topic was because I have seen posts in this forum which say things like "I often consider X part of X month to be X season", so I became curious!

Well to judge that an entire season on what has happened to a particular region in a particular small time frame can't be justified. December is meterologically and astronomically and culturally and agricultary and biologically a winter month! March is totally a Spring month in every sense. I do hope that you understand.

I suspect that you are feeling strong about this because it's been a poor winter for your region and you'll probably would to like think that March would be better! Let's see whether this March is indeed as wintry as you make it out to be!

Anyway, it's only the weather, just enjoy it and if it doesn't go your way then accept it and there are other things in life worth seeing and being! So if it's sunny and pleasant in March, go for a walk with your friends and enjoy the fantastic flora and wildlife, play football, go fishing, ride your bike as Spring really is a great time of year! Anyway, we've got winter to go through first.

[Snowy Easterly]

there are only 2 seasons in this country, spring and autumn, summer and winter may as well be scrapped

[Evening thunder]

Flippin' heck, why does someone need to get so argumentative?

The seasons are roughly as they should be IMO, there are some factors that suggest they should be earlier/later but I think it's about right.

[Richard Lake]

Haha well this is very funny thread... I see the reason to bring it up... but hey we can't just pick them up and move them around. Even if we could the whole world would have to join in :rofl:

[greybing]

The winter and summer solstices are several weeks before the middle of the seasons, and due to seasonal lag the seasons in the UK are meteorologically defined as being:

December, January and February - Winter

March, April and May - Spring

June, July and August - Summer

September, October and November - Autumn

However, in many cases March, a spring month is colder than December. In others, September is warmer than June!

There has been talk on this forum before about how March should replace December as a winter month.

Do you think the seasons are distributed correctly? If not, how do you think they should be distributed?

Just curious.

(I hope I started this in the right place!)

I think it is totally un important and there really are better things to think on.No offence is meant by this .

[Weather-history]

The obvious reason for not changing is a matter of convenience. We compare month with past months, so why complicate things by having monthly records and seasonal records that straddle months? We have over 300 years of records in this country so we should stick to the system we have been using for decades.

Not just temperature records at that but seasonal rainfall records go back a couple of hundred years as well.

One other point, the solstices and equinxoes as starting point for seasons has one drawback. They are are not fixed dates, it is a common misperception this, they do vary from time to time.

[Guest]

When I were't lad, we used to think of winter starting on the winter solstice of 21st December and lasting 'til 21st March, the spring solstice, with spring the lasting until 21st June and summer until 21st December, though Mr Data has a very good point.

This seemed to more accurately describe the weather but with a climate like ours it can vary quite a bit - I haven't kept records but I would say that over the years we have had more White Easters than white Christmases, though the spring snow is usually more transient.

Edited February 2, 2012 by mike Meehan

[greybing]

The obvious reason for not changing is a matter of convenience. We compare month with past months, so why complicate things by having monthly records and seasonal records that straddle months? We have over 300 years of records in this country so we should stick to the system we have been using for decades.

Not just temperature records at that but seasonal rainfall records go back a couple of hundred years as well.

One other point, the solstices and equinxoes as starting point for seasons has one drawback. They are are not fixed dates, it is a common misperception this, they do vary from time to time.

you make some good practical points,have to say, contrary to my earlier post,

.

Edited February 2, 2012 by greybing

[Bottesford]

Now keep calm everyone it's only a discussion!

They should remain as they are as the statistics show the three coldest months to be winter and the three warmest to be summer.

But even if that leaves you not convinced the overriding factor is the position of the sun in the sky. The days are longest and the sun highest May to July. The days are shortest and the sun lowest November to January. This is the starting point. Now added thermal lag in (lets say 1 month...) and low and behold the seasons fit our current pattern.

If I could offer any potential change it would only be that November feels like a winter month since it is generally quite cold and very dark. Many people I speak to actually think of November as winter anyway. Still I wouldn't really make that change though.

[leicsnow]

Now keep calm everyone it's only a discussion!

They should remain as they are as the statistics show the three coldest months to be winter and the three warmest to be summer.

But even if that leaves you not convinced the overriding factor is the position of the sun in the sky. The days are longest and the sun highest May to July. The days are shortest and the sun lowest November to January. This is the starting point. Now added thermal lag in (lets say 1 month...) and low and behold the seasons fit our current pattern.

If I could offer any potential change it would only be that November feels like a winter month since it is generally quite cold and very dark. Many people I speak to actually think of November as winter anyway. Still I wouldn't really make that change though.

It's true that many think of November as a winter month, when in reality it's usually rather mild (as well as the start of December often too). However, as you say it's quite dark as well and it's amazing how people will perceive it as colder when it's wet and dull (although this can be attributed to accompanied wind). Perhaps more surprising many people I know will say February is a Spring month, and describe it as "the end of winter going into Spring!" "The end of February is definitely Spring!".

Edited February 2, 2012 by Tellow

[Bottesford]

Yes agree - many people say 'the worst is over' once you hit Feb even though you're only just making it to the coldest time of year.

Just shows how light levels and day length are so important in determining how a time of year feels.

[leicsnow]

Yes agree - many people say 'the worst is over' once you hit Feb even though you're only just making it to the coldest time of year.

Just shows how light levels and day length are so important in determining how a time of year feels.

Yeah not to mention how people always stereotype 'cold' with 'wet' and 'warm' with 'sunny'. In Summer this is true but in Winter it's the other way around!

[damianslaw]

I think the meterological definition of the seasons reflects mother nature but not necessarily seasonal weather conditions.

March - sees the start of early spring growth and lambs etc are born whilst the birds are busy preparing for the breeding season. There is often a marked north-south split in March, with the north esp Scotland still locked in a late winter weather state, with snow still very likely esp on the hills - indeed I would argue on higher ground in the north March is still firmly winter. Whereas in the south, early spring warmth can quickly envelop the country when an anticyclone sets up over the country. Hours of daylight are also much longer by March as long as late sept/early oct and therefore it doesn't often fell like winter, indeed by late feb it does begin to feel much lighter as the suns gains greater strength.

Summer - June is definately summer.

[greybing]

Now keep calm everyone it's only a discussion!

They should remain as they are as the statistics show the three coldest months to be winter and the three warmest to be summer.

But even if that leaves you not convinced the overriding factor is the position of the sun in the sky. The days are longest and the sun highest May to July. The days are shortest and the sun lowest November to January. This is the starting point. Now added thermal lag in (lets say 1 month...) and low and behold the seasons fit our current pattern.

If I could offer any potential change it would only be that November feels like a winter month since it is generally quite cold and very dark. Many people I speak to actually think of November as winter anyway. Still I wouldn't really make that change though.

agreed

[Summer Sun]

This is how I would have it,

January to March - Winter

April to June - Spring

July to September - Summer

October to December - Autumn

[March Blizzard]

Interesting topic. If you look at the stats March and December are closer to one another, temperature wise, than many people think or realise. At only 1.2 Degrees apart (CET) they are closer than say October and November, June and July, and even their respective warmer neighbours (November and April). It's a classic...no, its the example of low solar output vs seasonal lag. I like to summarise it like this: December inherits any warmth, but makes none of it's own, whereas March is the exact opposite, it inherits no warmth, but begins to create it's own.

The "early March vs early December" debate in this topic particularly interests me, and it's something ive mulled over before; is early March (1-15) actually colder, on average, than early December (1-15). If you take two very close months for temperature and chop off the warmer half of one and the colder half of the other, do the remains actually compare? It would be great if someone actually had the hard facts to put the argument to bed. It would certainly settle a long standing argument between me and my brother - who's birthday is colder? His December 14th or my March 11?

It seems like most years, in the UK at least, the increasing sun strength in March just edges out December's lack thereof, but it's often a close one. We must also remember that we have been relatively spoilt by March in the last 20 years or so, with only the odd exception its often been warmer than average and is actually the month that has seen the biggest rise in temperature in the CET series (+0.6). I think this might also play a part in the average joe thinking March is much warmer than december, especially after the last few Decembers. In a sense people have forgotten just how cold and snowy March can potentially be, especially in the early part of the month. Lets not forget, it took the severe cold of Jan 2010 to crack the -20 acheived in March 2001, a record the month clung onto for nearly 9 years! Lets also not forget that the deepest snow recorded in the UK, and indeed the world, were both recorded in March.

Also, those of us writing off winter already should take heart in the fact that the lowest temperature of the year has occured in March 16 times in the last 110 years.

The facts don't lie, December is colder than March, but March is certainly no slouch when it comes to cold and snow, it's just been kind to us for the last few decades!

[Aaron]

The only way March and December are different is the fact that December has much shorter daylight hours, so snow will last longer in December and daytime temperatures are usually lower..

However, temperatures in March 2001 fell to -21C and I've seen some impressive snowfalls in March - the last decent March snowfall here was in 2008 so we're overdue a snowfall in March surely, away from Scotland and NI which got some in 2010?

[reef]

Interesting topic. If you look at the stats March and December are closer to one another, temperature wise, than many people think or realise. At only 1.2 Degrees apart (CET) they are closer than say October and November, June and July, and even their respective warmer neighbours (November and April). It's a classic...no, its the example of low solar output vs seasonal lag. I like to summarise it like this: December inherits any warmth, but makes none of it's own, whereas March is the exact opposite, it inherits no warmth, but begins to create it's own.

The "early March vs early December" debate in this topic particularly interests me, and it's something ive mulled over before; is early March (1-15) actually colder, on average, than early December (1-15). If you take two very close months for temperature and chop off the warmer half of one and the colder half of the other, do the remains actually compare? It would be great if someone actually had the hard facts to put the argument to bed. It would certainly settle a long standing argument between me and my brother - who's birthday is colder? His December 14th or my March 11?

It seems like most years, in the UK at least, the increasing sun strength in March just edges out December's lack thereof, but it's often a close one. We must also remember that we have been relatively spoilt by March in the last 20 years or so, with only the odd exception its often been warmer than average and is actually the month that has seen the biggest rise in temperature in the CET series (+0.6). I think this might also play a part in the average joe thinking March is much warmer than december, especially after the last few Decembers. In a sense people have forgotten just how cold and snowy March can potentially be, especially in the early part of the month. Lets not forget, it took the severe cold of Jan 2010 to crack the -20 acheived in March 2001, a record the month clung onto for nearly 9 years! Lets also not forget that the deepest snow recorded in the UK, and indeed the world, were both recorded in March.

Also, those of us writing off winter already should take heart in the fact that the lowest temperature of the year has occured in March 16 times in the last 110 years.

The facts don't lie, December is colder than March, but March is certainly no slouch when it comes to cold and snow, it's just been kind to us for the last few decades!

Certainly at my location, December 1st-15th averages 5.4C compared to March 1st-15th which has a mean of 6.0C (1981-2010 period).

"December inherits any warmth, but makes none of it's own, whereas March is the exact opposite, it inherits no warmth, but begins to create it's own." is a statement I agree with. The main 'warmth' in early December is from higher minima, due to thermal lag from the Summer/Autumn, whereas in early March minima are very low indeed and its solar heating and warmer maxima that give the higher mean temp.

I think the issue is people try and paint the seasons based on light levels and what weather they think a season should have. I always get confused when it hits 1st March and people suddenly switch to looking for warmth and disregard the chance of snow. The mean temp at the beginning of March is similar to the second half of December and statistically snow is just as likely (though can be more temporary).

The current system is the best comprimise but there will always be exceptions.

And March 11th has a mean of 6.6C here compared to 5.4C on December 14th

[March Blizzard]

"And March 11th has a mean of 6.6C here compared to 5.4C on December 14th"

...I might keep that one quiet! Seriously though 14th Dec, here at least, usually feels more Autumnal - Low/mild maxima and similar minima whereas Mar 11 can have quite balmy maxima but nearly always has lower minima. Oh well!

It's also interesting that the lowest temperature of the year (since 1900) has occured on 30th Dec 6 times, more than any other date. Second place is...3rd March, believe it or not, with 5 (joint with 14 Feb).

Interestingly, Dec 14 has never featured, Mar 11 has!

[coram]

Let's settle this argument!!!!!!!!

Let's start with the UK's coldest place - Scotland:

Coldest December vs Coldest March:

-1.8C (December 2010); 0.2C (March 1947) - December wins!

Warmest December vs Warmest March:

5.8C (1988); 7.0C (1938) - December wins!

Average Max Temps December vs March:

5.7C; 6.9C - December wins!

Average Min Temps December vs March:

0.5c;0.9c - December wins!

Days of Air Frost December vs March:

11.8; 10.5 - December wins!

Highest Max Temp December vs March:

18C; 26C - December wins!

Lowest Max Temp December vs March:

-16C; -4C - December wins (coldest ever max temp)

Highest Daily Min Temp December vs March:

15C; 14C - March Wins! Lol

Lowest Min Temp December vs March:

-27C; -22C - December wins (joint lowest ever temp)

December:

March:

December: Dark, freezing and snowy!

March:

December - Christmas Song:

DECEMBER VS MARCH - GLASGOW SNOWFALLS:

DECEMBER:

DECEMBER 1999: SNOWFALLS -7 (4th, 12th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 25th)

DECEMBER 2000: SNOWFALLS - 5 (17th, [24, 25],26th, 27th, 28th, 31st)

MARCH 2001 - 3 (2nd, 3rd, 22nd)

DECEMBER 2001: SNOWFALLS - 2 (13th, 29th)

MARCH 2002 - 2 (9th, 10th)

DECEMBER 2002: SNOWFALLS - 2 (18th, 19th)

DECEMBER 2003: SNOWFALLS - 0

MARCH 2004 - 1 (19th)

DECEMBER 2004: SNOWFALLS - 2 (24th, 25th)

MARCH 2005 - 1 (1st)

DECEMBER 2005: SNOWFALLS - 2 (29th, 30th)

MARCH 2006 - 5 (3rd, 7th, 11th, 12th, 16th)

DECEMBER 2006: SNOWFALLS - 0

MARCH 2007 - 2 (18th, 19th)

DECEMBER 2007: SNOWFALLS - 1 (8th)

MARCH 2008 - 4 (3rd, 24th, 26th, 28th)

DECEMBER 2008: SNOWFALLS - 3 (2nd, 11th, 12th)

MARCH 2009 - 4 (3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th)

DECEMBER 2009: SNOWFALLS - 11 (14th, 17th, 20th, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 29th, 30th)

MARCH 2010 - 1 (30th)

DECEMBER 2010: SNOWFALLS - 10 (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 8th, 9th, 16th, 18th, 19th, 25th)

MARCH 2011 - 4 (9th, 10th, 12th, 15th)

DECEMBER 2011: SNOWFALLS - 6 (4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 16th, 17th)

GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, but should we be taking Scotland into account bearing in mind that hopefully it won't be part of the UK soon.