Novel Coronavirus – China

[swebby]

5 minutes ago, General Cluster said:

What's the difference between completely isolating a group of people, to a given area, and quarantining them?

Isolation/quarantine/house arrest? Semantics really, but if the concern was for the health of the individuals in the hotel, then the expectation would be they would not be allowed to mingle.  If however the starting assumption is they are all infected, separating individuals is a waste of time

[Spikecollie]

10 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

Additional pictures and reports of guests standing in food queues in hotel restaurant, just like on a 'normal' holiday.

It aint no quarantine; it is purely an isolation 'job' by the Tenerife authorities to try to contain virus spread to the hotel, so as not to ruin the resort and risk resort or even island closure. Simple as.

"This ain't no quarantined hotel, this is the road to hell" - sorry, you just made me think of the Chris Rea song from years ago and I'm a bit of a lyric adapter...

[DAVID SNOW]

51 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

Additional pictures and reports of guests standing in food queues in hotel restaurant, just like on a 'normal' holiday.

It aint no quarantine; it is purely an isolation 'job' by the Tenerife authorities to try to contain virus spread to the hotel, so as not to ruin the resort and risk resort or even island closure. Simple as.

Does the Spanish government  not decide what to do then?

@Nick sussex, France not closing its border with Italy, not necessary apparently .......

[Spikecollie]

9 minutes ago, DAVID SNOW said:

Does the Spanish government  not decide what to do then?

@Nick sussex, France not closing its border with Italy, not necessary apparently .......

To close a border within the Schengen area is an EU decision and they have said no. Countries within Schengen can't do it unilaterally (thankfully). It seems, from what I have read so far, that border closures are not effective and may encourage people to use less legitimate routes of entry. Anyway, infected people are probably here (wherever here is for you - I'm in France, like Nick) already, so it's kind of "horse has bolted stuff".

[Bristawl Si]

18 minutes ago, DAVID SNOW said:

Does the Spanish government  not decide what to do then?

@Nick sussex, France not closing its border with Italy, not necessary apparently .......

Not sure to be blunt, as The Canaries have quite a lot of regional powers or autonomy. Taxes set by the islands, i think; the 'old' customs limits are applied, like only taking 1L of spirits out (not that everyone adheres to that). 

.

[Snipper]

[DAVID SNOW]

2 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

Not sure to be blunt, as The Canaries have quite a lot of regional powers or autonomy. Taxes set by the islands, i think; the 'old' customs limits are applied, like only taking 1L of spirits out (not that everyone adheres to that). 

.

Thanks BB.

Was listening to an 'advisor' on the news earlier and she stressed that this virus is a concern but...the numbers are very low when compared to population sizes, she went on to say, its more of a concern for countries that fall way short of 'our' level of care, that being the NHS.

[Methuselah]

10 minutes ago, Spikecollie said:

To close a border within the Schengen area is an EU decision and they have said no. Countries within Schengen can't do it unilaterally (thankfully). It seems, from what I have read so far, that border closures are not effective and may encourage people to use less legitimate routes of entry. Anyway, infected people are probably here (wherever here is for you - I'm in France, like Nick) already, so it's kind of "horse has bolted stuff".

As a fellow committed European I don't entirely agree with you, Spike: IMO, disease-control (or at least slowing its spread) ought to take precedence over FOM...COVID-19 won't notice borders?

On a related (it's a stretch I know!) note, a nocturnal animal left a turd in one of our polytunnels, last night...So the answer to the 'where's Fridge Magnet got to?' question may have been answered!

[Bristawl Si]

1 minute ago, DAVID SNOW said:

Thanks BB.

Was listening to an 'advisor' on the news earlier and she stressed that this virus is a concern but...the numbers are very low when compared to population sizes, she went on to say, its more of a concern for countries that fall way short of 'our' level of care, that being the NHS.

Yes, my initial thoughts a week or so ago, but who knows? We're off to Fuerteventura in 4 weeks for 2 months. The town we stay has 2 large expat communities, as well as Spanish residents. The Brits are one of the large expat communities, the other large one is Italians. Should be interesting. Local docs are good in the town, a German doc is very well respected, but the island hospitals arent great apparently.

[nick sussex]

29 minutes ago, DAVID SNOW said:

Does the Spanish government  not decide what to do then?

@Nick sussex, France not closing its border with Italy, not necessary apparently .......

Say you close the border what then do you also ban all flights from France to Italy . Will other countries be closing their borders . Will the UK be banning Italian nationals from entering the country or banning flights to the country . It’s really pointless unless all European countries take similar measures.

 

 

[Spikecollie]

9 minutes ago, nick sussex said:

Say you close the border what then do you also ban all flights from France to Italy . Will other countries be closing their borders . Will the UK be banning Italian nationals from entering the country or banning flights to the country . It’s really pointless unless all European countries take similar measures.

 

 

When you look at the Schengen legislation, it's actually quite specific - you can have "border controls" reintroduced between Schengen countries as things like terrorist threats might warrant this. In the case of COVID-19, you could probably stop people to take their temperature or ask where they had been, then potentially deny entry to someone who fits the criterion of threat. There is no closing of borders, it's just not a possibility. Sorry, forgot the link - 

Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control

EC.EUROPA.EU

---

Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Spikecollie

[DAVID SNOW]

1 minute ago, nick sussex said:

Say you close the border what then do you also ban all flights from France to Italy . Will other countries be closing their borders . Will the UK be banning Italian nationals from entering the country or banning flights to the country . It’s really pointless unless all European countries take similar measures.

 

 

A few pages back you were knocking the UK gov for its decision making, inactivity, or similar, so was wondering what the UK was getting wrong, compared to France,Germany,Spain  say?

[East_England_Stormchaser91]

17 minutes ago, Spikecollie said:

To close a border within the Schengen area is an EU decision and they have said no. Countries within Schengen can't do it unilaterally (thankfully). It seems, from what I have read so far, that border closures are not effective and may encourage people to use less legitimate routes of entry. Anyway, infected people are probably here (wherever here is for you - I'm in France, like Nick) already, so it's kind of "horse has bolted stuff".

How can closed borders not make a difference? And to put the cherry on the top, be thankful they can’t be?! I’m lost..

Not trying to be rude or anything. I genuinely question the logic. Unless you want this to run rampant? 

[Spikecollie]

7 minutes ago, East_England_Stormchaser91 said:

How can closed borders not make a difference? And to put the cherry on the top, be thankful they can’t be?! I’m lost..

Not trying to be rude or anything. I genuinely question the logic. Unless you want this to run rampant? 

Because of the principle of Freedom of Movement within Europe. As I just said, and edited because I forgot to post the link - yes, Schengen countries can reintroduce "border controls", but this has to be approved after a temporary time period. My point was that Freedom of Movement is something that I am very proud and very defensive of - for countries who have subscribed to it, it has to be protected and that is what the Schengen legislation is in place for.

My other point was that people have already departed - arrived - departed - arrived, what use would border closures be when cases have already arisen in several EU countries. The only way this can be dealt with now is internally in each individual country.

EDIT - and you can get reciprocal healthcare no matter where you fall ill.

You were not rude, by the way!

Edited February 26, 2020 by Spikecollie

[nick sussex]

1 minute ago, DAVID SNOW said:

A few pages back you were knocking the UK gov for its decision making, inactivity, or similar, so was wondering what the UK was getting wrong, compared to France,Germany,Spain  say?

I think most people would agree they were too slow to act in Wuhan , and again with the Japan cruiseship. 

As for the border it’s as I said pointless to close that unless you shut all ways for people to come and go  to Italy . And unless it’s a pan European decision then it wouldn’t work anyway.

 

 

[East_England_Stormchaser91]

1 minute ago, Spikecollie said:

Because of the principle of Freedom of Movement within Europe. As I just said, and edited because I forgot to post the link - yes, Schengen countries can reintroduce "border controls", but this has to be approved after a temporary time period. My point was that Freedom of Movement is something that I am very pruod and very defensive of - for countries who have subscribed to it, it has to be protected and that is what the Schengen legislation is in place for.

My other point was that people have already departed - arrived - departed - arrived, what use would border closures be when cases have already arisen in several EU countries. The only way this can be dealt with now is internally in each individual country.

You were not rude, by the way!

I get what you’re saying. I respect that view you uphold of Schengen.

The virus itself though can be slowed down. Only we can slow it down however. Sometimes for our own safety, we have to compromise traditions, activities and put whatever views (political or not) aside for the best of everyone’s health. This is a matter of life and death to a fair few people. 

[Bristawl Si]

Interesting one the closing of borders issue. Seems harsh in this day and age. For some, in Europe, the Schengen issue is a point of priniciple, from which they wont budge; i suspect there are just as many Europeans in some of its countries that wouldnt be against a temporary closure, but the Euro politicians wont want to lose face.

Read an article the other day where it was said that the reason China have eventually, but seemingly, slowed the CV's progress in China (cases reducing i believe) is because of their revert to type of very harsh policies of home quarantine, destruction of animals, dragging people away to detention centres, etc, etc.

Cant see Europe or UK going down that route.

[Spikecollie]

1 minute ago, East_England_Stormchaser91 said:

I get what you’re saying. I respect that view you uphold of Schengen.

The virus itself though can be slowed down. Only we can slow it down however. Sometimes for our own safety, we have to compromise traditions, activities and put whatever views (political or not) aside for the best of everyone’s health. This is a matter of life and death to a fair few people. 

But people have already travelled, are travelling and will travel before any border closure - even if that was possible. It's too late and would be a gestural reaction, like most government initiatives are, Each country needs to now concentrate on managing the virus internally.

[Methuselah]

13 minutes ago, Spikecollie said:

Because of the principle of Freedom of Movement within Europe. As I just said, and edited because I forgot to post the link - yes, Schengen countries can reintroduce "border controls", but this has to be approved after a temporary time period. My point was that Freedom of Movement is something that I am very proud and very defensive of - for countries who have subscribed to it, it has to be protected and that is what the Schengen legislation is in place for.

My other point was that people have already departed - arrived - departed - arrived, what use would border closures be when cases have already arisen in several EU countries. The only way this can be dealt with now is internally in each individual country.

You were not rude, by the way!

Sorry Spike, but there can be no political ideal so sacrosanct that it overrides the lives of ordinary people, IMO...And if that means that I, me, myself need be confined, isolated, quarantined (call it what you will) and borders need be closed, then so be it...?

IMO, the COVID-19 virus may be one of those situations where politics need take a back-seat?

Edited February 26, 2020 by General Cluster

[East_England_Stormchaser91]

3 minutes ago, Spikecollie said:

But people have already travelled, are travelling and will travel before any border closure - even if that was possible. It's too late and would be a gestural reaction, like most government initiatives are, Each country needs to now concentrate on managing the virus internally.

Going to be a long bumpy road ahead for that. 

The trouble is, we’ve had it far too good for too long, and it was only a matter of time before we got a shake up. Unfortunately it’s looking like that time has come. The global preparation for this has been nothing short of complacent and an utter shambles, and it’s now looking like many could pay the price. I pray for everyone. 

[Gael_Force]

1 minute ago, East_England_Stormchaser91 said:

I get what you’re saying. I respect that view you uphold of Schengen.

The virus itself though can be slowed down. Only we can slow it down however. Sometimes for our own safety, we have to compromise traditions, activities and put whatever views (political or not) aside for the best of everyone’s health. This is a matter of life and death to a fair few people. 

If the virus takes proper hold in Europe, people themselves will restrict their travel: purely from the point of view that they will want to stay home and not get caught up in lockdown in other areas. This has taken less than a week to move up several gears; a week where many people were on the move during school holidays.

I can see communities being isolated in individual countries but there are just too many land routes across European borders to make closure effective.

[nick sussex]

I’d personally not have a problem if temporary restrictions were put in place regarding the Schengen zone but unless you effectively ban any travel between European countries then what’s really the point . 

And the virus is everywhere anyway. Are governments going to effectively shut down all air travel I expect this will turn into a political football with   far right politicians attacking the EU and Schengen.

That’s already started with Salvini and the rest of the hate mob in some European countries . Using the virus to attack migrants and FOM .

 

[Wiltshire_snow_lover]

We in the UK are a island nation would be very easy to shut down borders i.e flights ferry crossings ect for us but money and economy come first for government 

[Summer Sun]

 

[Astral Goat Juice]

3 hours ago, Bristle boy said:

You say "We have just had the course on this"....

Who is "We"?

And just cropped up on news feeds, incl Sky News -

Guests at 'the hotel' in Tenerife are free to wander, including the pool area, and pics appearing of guests in the pool, so any virus will surely 'do the rounds'.

Like i said in earlier posts that hotel aint no quarantine. It might be a Canarian Spanish 'quarantine', but it defo aint a NHS England quarantine.

Sorry, I cant tell you whom I work with / for but this is direct from the Government. The horses mouth.