The Uk's Coldest City

[Yeti]

Edinburgh was pretty near the sea last time I looked!

2 good calls there - you often see Buxton and Leek Thorncliffe in the coldest-by-day tables in winter. Hereford can get pretty cold too (is that a city? It certainly has a cathedral).

Buxton is by far and away the highest large town in Britain at over 300m. It doesn't compare to Stike for example, although they can get cold, but Leeds is still colder in general in winter than places in the Midlands.

The NW sees much less variation with cooler summers and milder winters than the E, hence why places such as Oldham are probably a tad warmer than Leeds.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Yeti

[LadyPakal]

Well, with all this arguing about what makes a 'proper' city, can I just add that size isn't everything you know. However, maybe only a woman can appreciate this. ;-)

Most of the larger towns/cities in Scotland are coastal - makes sense if you think about it, because the middle bits are pretty inhospitable in the main, and transport hubs & fishing ports were where the largest gatherings of people tended to gather.

Coldest place in the UK is recognised as Braemar.

Had a rummage around in here:

http://www.worldclimate.com/

Here are just a few I looked at.

Aberdeen:

http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/data.p...+1202+0003738G2

Annual ave 7.9.

Glasgow

http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/data.p...+1202+0003743G2

Annual ave 8.5.

Edinburgh

http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/data.p...+1102+0316002G1

Annual ave 8.3.

Braemar (not a city)

http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/data.p...+1202+0003788G2

Annual ave 6.3.

Durham

http://www.worldclimate.com/cgi-bin/data.p...+1202+0003785G2

Annual ave 8.3.

[Yeti]

Interestingly out of all the cities that you posted there (i.e. excluding Braemar) Durham is the coldest - colder than Edinburgh and Aberdeen - in January. City-wise, England may actually have the coldest city then, in terms of WINTER only, clearly if summer is taken into account then Nern Scotland is much colder e.g. Aberdeen.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Yeti

[Stratos Ferric]

It really dependes on where you mean in leeds, Leeds center, or the suburbs of leeds???

...

Many are calling towns cities, york is a town so is harogate, Braemar is also a town, there will be colder towns and villages than leeds as leeds is very urbanised.

York is most definitely a city.

I thik the attached helps resolve the argument using MEAN temperature as the basis. Aberdeen and Inverness would both most definitely be colder than Leeds. There's no way that Leeds would be colder than either of those. Northerliness and easterliness far outweighs the very slight altitude advantage that Leeds would have. In addition, whilst a seaside location might be warmer in winter, it won't in summer.

UK_mean_temperature.ppt

[Yeti]

York is most definitely a city.

I thik the attached helps resolve the argument using MEAN temperature as the basis. Aberdeen and Inverness would both most definitely be colder than Leeds. There's no way that Leeds would be colder than either of those. Northerliness and easterliness far outweighs the very slight altitude advantage that Leeds would have. In addition, whilst a seaside location might be warmer in winter, it won't in summer.

UK_mean_temperature.ppt

True. Annually speaking, Scotland has much colder cities. However, in winter many places in the N of England are colder than coastal places in Scotland, and considering Scottish cities are on or near the coast, this may explain the confusion. It depends if you are looking for the coldest city annually or the coldest city in winter, because that makes a big difference.

[Stratos Ferric]

Harrogate and Knaresborough (which run into each other) have 158,000 people as opposed to 141,000 in Dundee, that is smaller and yet still classed as a city

Population has nothing to do with it, and Harrogate and Knaresborough may be close to each other, but they definitely do not "run into each other".

[Yeti]

Population has nothing to do with it, and Harrogate and Knaresborough may be close to each other, but they definitely do not "run into each other".

Well I drove to Knaresborough this morning and there was no gap between one and the other, the buildings just carried on! I live here, I think I should know

[Stratos Ferric]

True. Annually speaking, Scotland has much colder cities. However, in winter many places in the N of England are colder than coastal places in Scotland, and considering Scottish cities are on or near the coast, this may explain the confusion. It depends if you are looking for the coldest city annually or the coldest city in winter, because that makes a big difference.

As somebody said a few pages back, the originsl question was rather loosely worded.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/ave...000/mapped.html

There's the link to the UKMO mapping facility. However you look at it, in winter, pretty much any major centre in Scotland will be colder than England. Inverness would certainly appear to be colder than Durham.

[Norrance]

If you are allowed Cathedral cities I would vote for Dunkeld by some way perhaps from Elgin for Winter temps. It gets good frosts and holds the snow well in the Winter being shadowed by hills to the South.

As someone posted earlier there are 6 Scottish cities. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness and Stirling in descending order of population. Stirling was the most recent to avchieve City status and got it through it's historical influence as there are several larger towns that failed in their requests for city status. Paisley for example has twice the population of Stirling. Inverness was the second last to achieve city status and won the right as it was growing quickly and there was a political need to give something to the Highlands at the time.

[Summer of 95]

Edinburgh was pretty near the sea last time I looked!

2 good calls there - you often see Buxton and Leek Thorncliffe in the coldest-by-day tables in winter. Hereford can get pretty cold too (is that a city? It certainly has a cathedral).

Hereford- yes it is, and it (or at least Shobdon) can get some really low minima at times. However it's certainly not cool in summer, indeed the Hereford/Worcester/Gloucester (all cities) triangle can seemingly rival the SE for high summer maxima.

Just looked where Thorncliffe is- it's on the Buxton side of Leek at 300m amsl so cannot be passed off as accurate for Stoke.

[Stratos Ferric]

Well I drove to Knaresborough this morning and there was no gap between one and the other, the buildings just carried on! I live here, I think I should know

On the A59 there is open countryside between Harrogate and Knaresborough. On the lower road from Starbeck there are a few properties, however, even a cursory view of a map (or sat pics) would show that any suggestion that Harrogate and Knaresborough merge is somewhat far fetched. It's possible to drive from Leeds to Bradford and not have any sense of being anywhere near open countryside. Manchester definitely swamps Salford. The same is not true of a drive from Harrogate to Knaresborough, not least because the gap between the two is protected by green belt status.

You're not the only one who lives in that locale!

If you are allowed Cathedral cities I would vote for Dunkeld by some way perhaps from Elgin for Winter temps. It gets good frosts and holds the snow well in the Winter being shadowed by hills to the South.

As someone posted earlier there are 6 Scottish cities. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness and Stirling in descending order of population. ...

Dunkeld is an intersting call, and I wonder why it isn't a city - though I'm pretty sure it's not. Stirling would almost certainly be colder than the other lowland centres.

[Norrance]

On the A59 there is open countryside between Harrogate and Knaresborough. On the lower road from Starbeck there are a few properties, however, even a cursory view of a map (or sat pics) would show that any suggestion that Harrogate and Knaresborough merge is somewhat far fetched. It's possible to drive from Leeds to Bradford and not have any sense of being anywhere near open countryside. Manchester definitely swamps Salford. The same is not true of a drive from Harrogate to Knaresborough, not least because the gap between the two is protected by green belt status.

You're not the only one who lives in that locale!

Dunkeld is an intersting call, and I wonder why it isn't a city - though I'm pretty sure it's not. Stirling would almost certainly be colder than the other lowland centres.

It has the Cathedral but doesn't claim to be a city. However it is pretty cold there at times.

Stirling is quite low lying but Dunblane just up the road [another place with a cathedral] can be just that bit colder.

[Yeti]

On the A59 there is open countryside between Harrogate and Knaresborough. On the lower road from Starbeck there are a few properties, however, even a cursory view of a map (or sat pics) would show that any suggestion that Harrogate and Knaresborough merge is somewhat far fetched. It's possible to drive from Leeds to Bradford and not have any sense of being anywhere near open countryside. Manchester definitely swamps Salford. The same is not true of a drive from Harrogate to Knaresborough, not least because the gap between the two is protected by green belt status.

You're not the only one who lives in that locale!

Dunkeld is an intersting call, and I wonder why it isn't a city - though I'm pretty sure it's not. Stirling would almost certainly be colder than the other lowland centres.

I have PMd you about H'gate and Knaresborough. It is possible to drive between the two without leaving the urban area, as I say I did it this morning, you clearly haven't been that way. You live in W Yorkshire anyway, I wonder how many times you are in Harrogate and Knaresborough!

And about the map - yes, Scotland looks "blue" compared to England, but when you look it's very telling. Look where the cities are in Scotland and they are all in mild pockets around the coast. Unlike Nern England, where many cities are well inland in blue areas. We have already seen figures for Durham, which would appear to be colder than both Edinburgh and Aberdeen in January, and figures are more accurate than maps I should think.

[Osbourne One-Nil]

True, I come from one of the most sparsely populated areas of England myself

Well I drove to Knaresborough this morning and there was no gap between one and the other, the buildings just carried on! I live here, I think I should know

So let me get this straight. You live in one of the most sparsely populated parts of England, yet live in a town which (secretly) runs into another?

[Mondy]

and figures are more accurate than maps I should think.

Perhaps. Figures can be fudged to suit though. You only have to look at the AGW/Climate Change "authority" on that kind of discrepancy. But, I digress yet again.

[Yeti]

So let me get this straight. You live in one of the most sparsely populated parts of England, yet live in a town which (secretly) runs into another?

I meant that North Yorkshire is one of the most sparsely populated counties - which it is. It's the largest county and has few people.

There's no secret about Harrogate running into Knaresborough, it does. Stratos Ferric doesn't live here, whatever he likes to think, and anyway, he always says people are wrong!

[NorthernRab]

Carrbridge is colder than Aviemore simply due to altitude - Aviemore 228m, Carrbridge 271m.

I would not of thought of Inverness as the coldest - The Moray and Cromarty Firth keeps coastal areas in that region generally mild.

Actually, no it doesn't. Common misconception. It can allow temperatures in that area to hang around, creating a microclimate in high pressure set-ups.

http://www.xcweather.co.uk/

Take a look at the temperature map over the next few nights and you will see exactly what I mean, the Moray Firth and the Great Glen will create a cold pool.

That is the problem though, there is no official data for many cities in the UK. I'd still place Leeds colder than York as it varies so much in altitude, there are parts in the N and W that are over 200m, even though the centre is much lower, so it depends if you mean the city centre or other major areas. Certainly High Mowthorpe is not indicative of York and I would say it's much closer to somewhere like where I live - a fair bit colder than both Leeds and York.

Also I think Scots seem to have slightly different criteria as to what constitutes a city shall we say!

Do we? Our largest and most influential settlements make up our cities, makes sense to me?

Not sure that either of those are cities...there should be data for Inverness, there's an airport there.

I was discussing that earlier, the airport is a fair bit away from the city, more costal and at sea-level. If anyone has been to Inverness, they'll know that as soon as you go south of the city centre, the rest of the city is on a high elevation: Crown, Drakies, Culloden, Milton of Leyes, Smithton, Drummond, etc etc.

Inverness needs a weather station itself, but I suppose that's definitely a seperate issue.

And about the map - yes, Scotland looks "blue" compared to England, but when you look it's very telling. Look where the cities are in Scotland and they are all in mild pockets around the coast. Unlike Nern England, where many cities are well inland in blue areas. We have already seen figures for Durham, which would appear to be colder than both Edinburgh and Aberdeen in January, and figures are more accurate than maps I should think.

No, Perth and Stirling are not costal. Inverness isn't properly costal either.

...and really? Glasgow isn't what you'd call a costal city either.

Edited December 28, 2008 by NorthernRab

[Yeti]

Please don't tell me that Perth's a city

If you're allowed Perth, we're allowed Buxton, Consett, Skipton.... etc. etc. etc.

[Osbourne One-Nil]

he always says people are wrong!

If only he could have some of your legendary humility and charm eh?

[NorthernRab]

Please don't tell me that Perth's a city

If you're allowed Perth, we're allowed Buxton, Consett, Skipton.... etc. etc. etc.

Perth was officially a city to only recently, but I guess it can no longer be counted - I could've really gone over board an included 'the City of Elgin' . Yeti, this isn't a competition, there is no 'we'. Either way, no English city is colder than Inverness, Aberdeen or Dundee, imo.

[Nick H]

I think London is the coldest city.

[Optimus Prime]

I thought Cowes in the Isle of white was?

[Mondy]

You all forgot to mention the City of Lerwick

[PersianPaladin]

I think its pretty clear that in certain synoptic scenarios such as northerlies; Scotland will always be colder than the rest of the UK. Scenarios that include mid-latitude high pressure centred over the UK will also favour parts of central and Highland scotland where the glens tend to record the lowest minima. However; when looking at average temperatures over a year its notable that the north and west of Scotland does get that extra bit of zonal mobility and moisture that affects the extent of diurnal temperature ranges.

As for my city being colder than places in eastern and central Scotland; erm......nope.

Edited December 28, 2008 by PersianPaladin

[Stratos Ferric]

I meant that North Yorkshire is one of the most sparsely populated counties - which it is. It's the largest county and has few people.

There's no secret about Harrogate running into Knaresborough, it does. Stratos Ferric doesn't live here, whatever he likes to think, and anyway, he always says people are wrong!

I don't live in New York either, but I know there's a big funny statue there on the way out of the port. Or Paris. Harrogate is so far away from here that in order to get there I'd need one of those beam-me-up thingies that they have on Star Trek. Presumably the combustion engine hasn't yet arrived in Harrogate?

Anyone who is bothered can always go and make their own mind up by checking either on a map, or google earth. I think it's time to put the spade down: Knaresborogate will never be, and even if it was, it still wouldn't be a city, and even if it were, it wouldn't be colder than the Scottish cities either on an average basis (they're all colder) or a mean minimum basis (Inverness would certainly beat it).